Christian perfection

January 8, 2015

Jesus never takes away our flesh, that's true....

But I can't agree with the rest since I believe....

being sinless is mandatory....

for a Christian....

~

Christian

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: John 3:36(a)

Non-Christian

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36(b-c)

~

Beloved,

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:7-9

Faith Is Mandatory

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

For A Christian

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

See?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

No?

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

Mr Nice · January 10, 2015

Those who are in disagreement with me in respect to being able to cease from sin, being able to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and the spirit, and perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Please answer the following questions.

If Paul did not do these things or did not believe these things, then why did he tell us to do so?

2Co 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Co 1:18-22 But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no. (19) For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us--by me and Silvanus and Timothy--was not yes and no, but is yes in Him. (20) For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us. (21) Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, (22) who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Why would Paul state this if he knew it was not possible? What are the promises he is speaking about?

Why would Peter claim we might partake of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust if it is impossible for us to completely escape?

2Pe 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; (3) seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. (4) For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

How can he claim to have taken every thought captive to the obedience of Christ if we cannot cease from sin?

2Co 10:5-6 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, (6) and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

Why would he claim that if we are walking according to the Spirit we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh if he believed we will still fulfill the desires of the flesh?

Gal 5:16-18 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. (17) For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. (18) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

What two things were battling in Romans 7? Was the Holy Spirit involved in the battle?

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Gal 5:16-18 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. (17) For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. (18) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

According to Paul, what results in sanctification? What is the outcome of this sanctification? See Romans 6.

Does someone have to confess their sins (claiming they have sin in their lives or have sinned) in order to become a Christian?

What did God tell Abraham to do in order to receive the blessing? When did he receive the blessing?

Gen 17:1-2 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. (2) "I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

Gen 22:10-18 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. (11) But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." (12) He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (13) Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. (14) Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided." (15) Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, (16) and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, (17) indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. (18) "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Gen 22:10-18 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. (11) But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." (12) He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (13) Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. (14) Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided." (15) Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, (16) and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, (17) indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. (18) "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

How can someone be put to the test to see if they are obedient in all things if it is impossible for them to be obedient in all things?

2Co 2:9 For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things.

How can Paul claim the Ephesians, himself, and those who were with him formerly lived or walked according to the course of this world if we cannot cease from sin?

Eph 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, (2) in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. (3) Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Did Paul think we could walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which we have been called? How can we say we are walking worthy of the calling if sin still remains in us?

Eph 4:1-3 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, (2) with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, (3) being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Php 1:27-28 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; (28) in no way alarmed by your opponents--which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.

Col 1:9-14 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, (10) so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; (11) strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously (12) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. (13) For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, (14) in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

How could Paul command us to put away ALL bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, slander, unwholesome speech, etc. if he himself could not do it? How could he command the one who steals to steal no longer if it is not possible?

Eph 4:17-31 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, (18) being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; (19) and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. (20) But you did not learn Christ in this way, (21) if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, (22) that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, (23) and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, (24) and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. (25) Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. (26) BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, (27) and do not give the devil an opportunity. (28) He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. (29) Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. (30) Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (31) Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

How can we imitate God and walk in love just as Christ loved us if it is impossible to cease from sin (sin is not love)? How can Paul command us to not let any immorality or impurity or greed even be named among us if it is impossible to do so?

Eph 5:1-12 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; (2) and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. (3) But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; (4) and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. (5) For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. (6) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. (7) Therefore do not be partakers with them; (8) for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (9) (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), (10) trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. (11) Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; (12) for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.

How many times do I have to commit adultery with my neighbor’s wife in order to be practicing adultery and be called an adulterer?

How many times do I have to lie to be practicing lying and be called a liar?

How many times do I have to steal to be practicing stealing and be called a thief?

Who will not have an inheritance in the kingdom of God?

How can Paul claim we can stop/extinguish every flaming arrow with the shield of faith if he knew we could not?

Eph 6:10-17 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. (11) Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. (12) For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. (13) Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. (14) Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, (15) and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; (16) in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. (17) And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

How can we approve the things that are excellent and be sincere and blameless until the coming of Christ if we cannot cease from sin by living according to the Spirit?

Php 1:9-11 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, (10) so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; (11) having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

How can we prove we are blameless and innocent children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation if we cannot stop sinning?

Php 2:12-16 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; (13) for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (14) Do all things without grumbling or disputing; (15) so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, (16) holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

How can Paul say to the Colossians (and us of course) they formerly were hostile toward God and engaged in evil deeds if they have never ceased from evil deeds?

Col 1:21-23 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, (22) yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- (23) if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Col 3:5-10 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. (6) For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, (7) and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. (8) But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. (9) Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, (10) and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--

How is it that you say God views sin partially (habitual vs occasional) while Paul says those who do wrong will suffer the consequences of the wrong without partiality? God sees all sin the same way whether it is committed once or 1000 times.

Col 3:23-25 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, (24) knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. (25) For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

How can we stand perfect (complete as you say) if sin remains in our lives?

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.

How can Paul claim he behaved devoutly, uprightly, and blamelessly if he continued to sin? How can we walk in a manner worthy of the calling if we cannot cease from sin and serve God alone?

1Th 2:10-13 You are witnesses, and so is God, how devoutly and uprightly and blamelessly we behaved toward you believers; (11) just as you know how we were exhorting and encouraging and imploring each one of you as a father would his own children, (12) so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory. (13) For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

How can we be sanctified if we are still sinning? If one has not ceased from sexual immorality he is not sanctified.

1Th 4:1-8 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. (2) For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. (3) For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; (4) that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, (5) not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; (6) and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. (7) For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. (8) So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

How can our body, spirit and soul be preserved complete without blame if we do not cease from sin? How can Paul tell us to abstain from every form of evil while at the same time believing we cannot abstain? Why would Paul be saying may God sanctify us entirely if, as you say, we are already sanctified when we accept Christ? What need is there for a 2^nd sanctification if that is what this is? Or is this the only sanctification which comes through being led by the Spirit?

1Th 5:14-24 We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. (15) See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. (16) Rejoice always; (17) pray without ceasing; (18) in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. (19) Do not quench the Spirit; (20) do not despise prophetic utterances. (21) But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; (22) abstain from every form of evil. (23) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (24) Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

If works of faith mean nothing and we cannot earn our salvation by them, how is it that we will be considered worthy?

2Th 1:5-12 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. (6) For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (7) and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, (8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (9) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed. (11) To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, (12) so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

How can Paul claim he did not walk in an undisciplined manner if he continued to sin (which is an undisciplined manner)?

2Th 3:3-7 But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one. (4) We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command. (5) May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ. (6) Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. (7) For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

Christ used Paul as an example of his perfect patience for those who believe. Why? Because Saul (before he became Paul) was worse than an unbeliever. He was doing everything he could to destroy the ministry of Christ. Paul was the perfect example of how the love of Christ can change someone. Paul ceased from all that he was doing demonstrating what can be done through the Spirit of God.

1Ti 1:12-16 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, (13) even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; (14) and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. (15) It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. (16) Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

How can a person have sin in their life whether it is occasional or habitual and claim they are not under the Law? How could Paul not be under the Law if he continue to do that which he hated?

1Ti 1:6-11 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, (7) wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. (8) But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, (9) realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers (10) and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, (11) according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

1Ti 1:8-11 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, (9) realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers (10) and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, (11) according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

If Paul believed we will continue to sin why would he give Timothy a command to keep himself free from sin or keep himself pure? Or how about keeping the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of the Lord?

1Ti 5:22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

1Ti 6:11-16 But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. (12) Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. (13) I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (14) that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, (15) which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, (16) who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

If doing what God has commanded us to do why does Paul tell Timothy to teach those who are rich to do good, to be rich in good works, generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed?

1Ti 6:17-19 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. (18) Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, (19) storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

How can Paul claim he had a sincere/pure conscience if he still sinned? How can a man who lies to his wife have a clear conscience? How about one who steals? He cannot.

2Ti 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve with a clear conscience the way my forefathers did, as I constantly remember you in my prayers night and day,

What does it mean to believe in Christ?

How can a person present themselves approved unto God as a workman if they are ashamed because they sin?

How can one be unashamed if sin still dwells in him?

What does it mean to name the name of the Lord?

What does it mean to abstain from wickedness? Has a person who occasionally sins or sins once abstained from wickedness?

Can a person be a vessel of honor useful to God if he has not cleansed himself from wickedness? Paul says “if anyone cleanses himself he will be a vessel of honor, sanctified, and useful to the Master”.

Does a person who continues to sin have a pure heart? For it is out of the heart that

2Ti 2:15-26 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. (16) But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, (17) and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, (18) men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. (19) Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness." (20) Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. (21) Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. (22) Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (23) But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. (24) The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, (25) with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (26) and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Mat 15:18-20 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. (19) "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. (20) "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

If we can still sin occasionally and still enter heaven why does John say “he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides in him”?

Joh 3:34-36 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. (35) "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (36) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

How can a person who does not obey, who does not keep His commandments claim they have the Holy Spirit within them?

Act 5:31-32 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. (32) "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Through whom are we sanctified? What is the result of proving our faith by being tested with fire?

1Pe 1:1-9 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen (2) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (4) to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, (5) who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (6) In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, (7) so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (8) and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, (9) obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

How can one claim to be obedient to God while at the same time continuing to sin even if it is only occasionally? What is the outcome for those who do not obey?

1Pe 4:14-19 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. (15) Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; (16) but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. (17) For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? (18) AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? (19) Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

Here is my great concern. Who is it that holds to a form of godliness but deny its power? Is it the one who claim he is obedient in all things through Him who strengthens him, having been built up in the inner man by the Holy Spirit or is it the one who claims to be living godly lives yet says they cannot completely obey?

2Ti 3:2-7 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, (3) unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, (4) treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, (5) holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. (6) For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, (7) always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Eph 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, (15) from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, (16) that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, (17) so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, (18) may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, (19) and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

2Co 4:7-11 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; (8) we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; (9) persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; (10) always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. (11) For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

What did God say when Judah said that it was hopeless to turn from their evil way and reform their ways and their deeds? He said their claim was an appalling thing. Notice this passage is what He is able to do as the potter.

Jer 18:4-13 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. (5) Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, (6) "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. (7) "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; (8) if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. (9) "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; (10) if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (11) "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."' (12) "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.' (13) "Therefore thus says the LORD, 'Ask now among the nations, Who ever heard the like of this? The virgin of Israel Has done a most appalling thing.

I could go on but this is enough to question your beliefs about being able to completely turn from our wicked ways to serve the living God through His Spirit. You say the Bible doesn’t say we can. Most if not all of these verses declare we can. Please answer the questions.

Mr Nice · January 10, 2015

I did not say that they didn't believe in sin, or that they did not have sin.   I said that Jewish theology doesn't carry the notion of being a "sinner" the way it is taught to us in Christianity.

First, they have God's law to define what sin is as Paul said. Second, yes they did see themselves with sin.
Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!”
Or the woman caught in adultery?
John 8:7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

So, Paul was in a constant state of willing to do, and not practicing, and falling in what he hates, sin, and doing it? That is the normal Christian life?

No, that's not it at all. Again, as I have had to explain to others, Paul is using common rhetorical devices to make his point.   Paul is not saying that he constantly fails in his struggle against sin.   He is using what writers in the first century Greco-Roman culture and even in our culture today use: Empathy.   Paul is an aged man by the time he writes Romans. He is a man who understands his audiences, he knows the needs of the people he is addressing. He knows their struggles and he addresses them as one of them.   He says in another place that he becomes all things to all people. He puts himself in the shoes of his reader and tailors his message to be something relevant to that audience.

You appear to be interpreting Romans 7 in the light of your experience and you are letting your theology drive your interpretation.   You see yourself in particular light and you have defined your experience as "normal Christian living."

Well, not everyone is where you're at, or where I'm at. There are a lot of Christians out there who struggle with exactly what Paul is dealing with in Rom. 7: 14-25.   There are a lot of Christians who struggle in their walk with God. They aren't walking two feet above the ground in perfect holiness like you claim to be.   They came to Christ with a lot of baggage and a lot of problems and frankly, things aren't perfect for them.   Life was bad before they came to Christ, and since they became believers, it has basically gotten worse. They are not walking in this ideal place that you depict. They have a lot of stuff in their lives and the Lord is still working on them and yes, they stumble occasionally; they lose a few battles, but their Christian life is no less "normal" than yours, whether you can make room for that or not.   One thing that I have learned is that Jesus doesn't always fix things; He doesn't always make the problems and issues go away. He doesn't always relieve us of the suffering; rather, He gives us Himself and He suffers with us. He walks us through the problems and He gives meaning and purpose to the pain. He doesn't calm the storm, but often gives us peace in the midst of the storm.   He works with us as flawed, fallen human beings.

A lot of Christians are slugging it out in the trenches dealing with problematic family members that try their patience, that bring out the worst in them. They struggle with not being fearful because they can't pay the rent and are about to be evicted and don't know where to go. They are serving God, staying in prayer and Bible study and they are plugged into a local church, but real life is taking its toll and the Lord is all they have to hold on to, and they do it imperfectly and sometimes they win and sometimes they don't. That's where people were at in Paul's day and it where people are at today.

One thing I appreciate about the Bible, is that it doesn't whitewash over the flaws of the main heroes and heroines in the biblical accounts. Abraham sinned a lot and he had to grow and learn faith just like we do. Paul had an issue with unforgiveness, Peter had a temper, a big mouth and also struggled with hypocrisy.   Even Jesus' own mother thought he was out of His mind at one point.   John and James were prideful and wanted to sit on Jesus' right and left hand and at one point wanted to call down fire from heaven.   The disciples who saw Jesus' miracles and were there for virtually every major supernatural event, not only deserted him when the chips were down, but all of those experiences all of those miracles didn't sustain them for the three days following Jesus' crucifixion.

The writers of the Bible had flaws David, Solomon, Paul, Peter, James, Moses, etc. They all failed at one point or another. They didn't live in some other-worldly spiritual dimension. They had feet of clay and they personality flaws and moments of weakness, depression, discouragement, etc. They failed and in some cases failed royally. But they were no less used by God than you or I. And God still used them in mighty ways in spite of their flaws and weaknesses. He didn't use them because they were living so free of sin that they could claim that sin never touched their lives. He used them IN their flawed state. The Spirit moved through imperfect vessels to do His work.

One thing I heard preacher say that has always stuck with me is that no matter how difficult the target, God can always strike straight with a crooked stick.

To be brutally honest, as I live in the Spirit, that wallet scenario wouldn't have happened. I've been in situations like that, and living in the place of intimacy with Him, my desire is for Him so those thoughts didn't cross my mind. If they do, I'm neglecting to live in the Spirit. As I live to seek His face, I don't struggle with my flesh anymore. When I neglect intimacy with Him, I do. The more I fall in love with Him, the more my heart is for Him. Jesus makes it really easy. His Presence empowers us. We can desire the things of the Lord, we really don't have to be in a constant struggle of flesh and Spirit. He won, we can live in Him with a clear conscience. We can really have a pure heart in following the Lord.

Yes, but there are times, and none of us can claim that we walk in the Spirit 100% of the time.   We might like to think we do, but we don't. All of us have drawbacks and flaws in our personalities that come out from time to time.   All of us have times when our flesh rises up and we have to deal with that. You might not deal with the wallet scenario, but like I said, you have flesh nature and it will and does rise up from time to time.   If you claim otherwise, you're not being completely honest with yourself.

Struggling with the flesh doesn't mean we don't have a pure heart. If you didn't have a pure heart, there wouldn't be a struggle in the first place. We all follow God with pure hearts, but we also have a sinful nature that has to be kept in check.   I realize that it really cramps our style to admit that we are still human and we still have failings, but it's true.   You have them, I have them.   It's part of being a Christian.

the issue with the Romans 7 man being the Christian experience is it gives excuse for sin, which I have heard from countless people who interpret Romans 7 as the believers struggle, as I did. They use it to justify sin in their lives. The bible gives no excuse to live in sin.

There is no excuse for living in sin. But struggling with sin isn't the same as living in it.    Admitting that Romans 7:14-25 is part of the Christian experience doesn't amount to justifying sin in any shape or form.   If anything, what we see is Paul empathizing because he has been there.   It is Paul, the great theologian of the Church allowing us into his life. It is Paul being vulnerable and honest.   He can empathize with the Jews because He used to live where they live. He can empathize with the Gentiles because he was raised in a predominately Gentile culture as a Roman citizen and so he sees the issue from the perspective of a person who lives in the legalism of Judaism and He realizes that there are recent converts from Greco-Roman paganism who still have some baggage from back in the day and they are still sorting things out in how they are to relate to the culture out of which they were saved and what parts of their old life are sinful and which parts aren't.

Romans 7 deals with both and Paul addresses both.

How Do think God is incapable of guarding that which we have trusted to Him? Do you not think that His wisdom and the power granted to those who are His is capable of keeping us from God? If you think this way you are putting God in a box, essentially saying He can keep me from these things over here but he can't always keep me. this is absurd.

There is no excuse for giving into temptation with all that God has promised. The problem you continue to have is you do not believe what God has said about temptation. He said we are not tempted beyond what we are able which means if you sin you have given yourself over to it. He also said He will always provide the way out. If we truly believe this and are therefore constantly looking for the way out, how can we not find our way? How can we not keep from sinning? We have no excuse if we continue to sin because we have chosen to not accept what you have been taught. God says He is able to keep us from stumbling.

Committing sin is committing sin. It is independent of how many times. A liar is one who tells a lie. A thief is one who steals something. A murderer is one who kills one or more people. An adulterer is one who has only laid with his neighbor's wife once. God says none of these will enter the kingdom of heaven unless they repent and do them no longer. If we turn back and do that which we have put to death we are like a pig who returns to the mire after he has been cleaned.

Where is your faith in God? By what you are saying you claim you do not have enough faith to do as He has commanded us to do. That is why you sin.

You say if we claim we don't stumble that we are not being completely honest with ourselves. John says if you claim to know God but do not keep his commandments you are a liar, meaning those who claim this are deceiving themselves. I think I will listen to what John is saying.

Please demonstrate to us outside of Romans 7 and 1 John 1 where your beliefs are justified. Paul cannot claim he once was disobedient if he has never ceased from sin.

If we commit a sin, a single sin, we are living according to the flesh. Those who are living according to the flesh will die.

A lot of Christians are slugging it out in the trenches dealing with problematic family members that try their patience, that bring out the worst in them. They struggle with not being fearful because they can't pay the rent and are about to be evicted and don't know where to go. They are serving God, staying in prayer and Bible study and they are plugged into a local church, but real life is taking its toll and the Lord is all they have to hold on to, and they do it imperfectly and sometimes they win and sometimes they don't. That's where people were at in Paul's day and it where people are at today.

Christ told a parable about this very topic and is usually referred to as the parable of the sower. The problem with your analogy is the people you are describing are identical to those who turned away from the truth. They are the ones who were sown among the rocks and thorns. They fall away in times of temptation. This is how you are describing Paul as well if you believe Romans 7 was him saying he continue to sin.

Mat 13:18-23 "Hear then the parable of the sower. (19) "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. (20) "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; (21) yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. (22) "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. (23) "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

Luk 8:12-15 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. (13) "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. (14) "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. (15) "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

These whom you describe also sound like those who Christ spoke of in Matthew 7. They were doing all these things (serving God, staying in prayer and Bible study and they are plugged into a local church,) in His name, where he says:

Mat 7:21-24 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. (22) "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (24) "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

They are workers of lawlessness if they are doing what you said they were doing because of the cares of the world. You speak of people having hard times in their lives and try to use them to justify your claim we will all continue to sin. Another bold claim considering Paul says he and others endured all things for the cause of Christ being strong in faith. Our circumstances give us no excuse for sinning.

2Th 1:3-5 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; (4) therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. (5) This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

2Ti 3:10-12 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, (11) persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! (12) Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

We are to rejoice in our trials because they produce perseverance and endurance, not failure.

Jas 1:2-8 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, (3) knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. (4) And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (5) But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. (6) But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. (7) For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, (8) being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

1Pe 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (4) to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, (5) who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (6) In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, (7) so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (8) and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, (9) obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Again the outcome of our faith is salvation of our souls. What is this faith Peter is talking about? It is enduring and persevering in our trials and temptations. It is what we do, having our faith perfected. Faith does not just believe, it must act. This was the same for Christ. He was made perfect through that which He suffered.

Heb 5:8-10 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. (9) And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, (10) being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

I glory while in my trials because God is testing me just like Paul. He is checking to see if I fear God as Abraham did. Checking to see if I am obedient in what He has commanded me to do so I may receive the crown of life in the end. We are to be firm in our faith, steadfast, immovable.. If we sin we are none of these.

January 10, 2015

How Do think God is incapable of guarding that which we have trusted to Him?

I don't. That has been my point. God is the one keeps me saved. I don't keep myself saved. Salvation comes from God alone and I am not granted the power to keep myself saved.

Your theology isn't about God keeping anything or anyone. Your theology sets you up as idol and as the one who keeps you saved. You are committing idolatry because your faith is not in God, but in yourself for salvation. You don't need God. You are your own god. You are your own salvation. When you have an idol (self) to worship, you don't need God.

There is no excuse for giving into temptation with all that God has promised. The problem you continue to have is you do not believe what God has said about temptation. He said we are not tempted beyond what we are able which means if you sin you have given yourself over to it. He also said He will always provide the way out.

Which shows that you don't really study the Bible very well. The "temptation" being referenced in that verse is not the temptation to sin. The KJV uses "temptation" in that verse to refer to trials and adversity. A better word is "tested." God will not allow you to be "tested" above what you are able, but with every test provide a way of escape. He is talking about being tested or tried in the heat of persecution and tribulations. So you completely misapply that verse.

I agree that there is no excuse for sin. The Bible never helps us make an excuse for sin. But we do sin and do it without the need of an excuse.

Committing sin is committing sin. It is independent of how many times. A liar is one who tells a lie. A thief is one who steals something. A murderer is one who kills one or more people. An adulterer is one who has only laid with his neighbor's wife once. God says none of these will enter the kingdom of heaven unless they repent and do them no longer. If we turn back and do that which we have put to death we are like a pig who returns to the mire after he has been cleaned.

The problem is that you are again misapplying Scripture. II Peter 2 in reference to a pig returning to his mud pit is talking about those who return to living in sin who commit apostasy and completely abandon the Christian faith. You are misapplying the text to mean that if you commit one sin you are like a pig returning to the mud and that is not what Peter said or meant. Again, you pervert Scripture to support your godless theology.

You say if we claim we don't stumble that we are not being completely honest with ourselves. John says if you claim to know God but do not keep his commandments you are a liar, meaning those who claim this are deceiving themselves. I think I will listen to what John is saying.

Right. If you claim to love God but live in disobedience. John is referring to a general lifestyle of disobedience wherein you reject God's commandments altogether. He is not talking about an occasional sin.

Please demonstrate to us outside of Romans 7 and 1 John 1 where your beliefs are justified. Paul cannot claim he once was disobedient if he has never ceased from sin.

Actually Paul never claimed that he was 100% obedient after he got saved. You won't find one place where Paul makes that claim. And the book of Acts actually reveals a flaw in Paul when he bore a grudge against John Mark.

A lot of Christians are slugging it out in the trenches dealing with problematic family members that try their patience, that bring out the worst in them. They struggle with not being fearful because they can't pay the rent and are about to be evicted and don't know where to go. They are serving God, staying in prayer and Bible study and they are plugged into a local church, but real life is taking its toll and the Lord is all they have to hold on to, and they do it imperfectly and sometimes they win and sometimes they don't. That's where people were at in Paul's day and it where people are at today.

Christ told a parable about this very topic and is usually referred to as the parable of the sower. The problem with your analogy is the people you are describing are identical to those who turned away from the truth. They are the ones who were sown among the rocks and thorns. They fall away in times of temptation. This is how you are describing Paul as well if you believe Romans 7 was him saying he continue to sin.

First of all, I didn't give an analogy. There are Christians who live in trying circumstances and many of them are at different stages of maturity in their Christian walk. That is something that a judgmental person like you refuses to take into account. These are not people who fall away. They are people who are still serving and following God, but are imperfect in it. Your position possesses no grace. Your position is, "either be 100% perfect or go to hell."

You don't take into account the fact that people get saved out of some very difficult circumstances. Getting saved doesn't mean that your past suddenly goes away. Christians get saved in the middle of some pretty horrific life situations and everything doesn't get fixed automatically. Sanctification is process and addictions don't always just go away and old habits don't always just disappear overnight. There is a process of deliverance that occurs for most people. And people sin in the middle of that process. That is why we have the grace of God. No one is trying to make excuses, but at the same time, people do fail and they need the grace that picks them up and forgives them and gives them a second chance.

Your theology makes no room for that. Your position condemns people to hell for for even a single sin and there is no grace for that person. You refuse to make distinction between a person who is trying to serve God and stumbles vs. a person who sins habitually and doesn't care. The Bible makes a distinction and is careful to make that distinction. There is place in the Bible where a single sin condemns a Christian to hell. You cannot provide one verse that condemns Christians to hell over a single sin.

These whom you describe also sound like those who Christ spoke of in Matthew 7. They were doing all these things (serving God, staying in prayer and Bible study and they are plugged into a local church,) in His name, where he says:

Mat 7:21-24 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. (22) "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (24) "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Again, more sloppy theology. Matt. 7:21-24 is talking about false prophets, if you look at the context. In fact, it is interesting that you would bring that verse up. Because the people in that verse are not people who fell away. Notice that they appealed to all the good things they did. They recall all of the great works they performed. They were appealing to Jesus, not on the basis of grace, but on the basis of the good works they performed. They list off all of their good works and Jesus said, depart from me you worker of iniquity for I never knew you. That's the position YOU'RE in. You are appealing to your good works and how sinless you think you are. You don't appeal to God's grace at all. Your focus is completely on works and you downplay the grace of God and you deny the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross but you emphasize your good works and Jesus will look at YOU and say, "Sorry, I never knew you." The people who Jesus rejected were the people who appealed to Him on the basis of their goodness and good works.

They are workers of lawlessness if they are doing what you said they were doing because of the cares of the world. You speak of people having hard times in their lives and try to use them to justify your claim we will all continue to sin. Another bold claim considering Paul says he and others endured all things for the cause of Christ being strong in faith. Our circumstances give us no excuse for sinning.

No, they are not workers of lawlessness. Lawlessness is complete abandonment. A Lawless person is a person who is irretrievably wicked who has no compunction about sin. A lawless person isn't a person who commits just ONE sin. A lawless person is a person who is continually and habitually disobedient and they don't care. That is not what the parable is teaching. But you wouldn't know because your false teaching perverts the Holy Word of God.

January 10, 2015

If we sin we are none of these.

If We Say

If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 1 John 1:8-9 (NLT)

We Have No Sin

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:4-9

We Mock And Scorn The Blood Of Christ

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

And Talk About Sinning, Beloved We Have

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 Peter 2:24

Called God A Liar

If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts. 1 John 1:10 (NLT

~

Believe

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.

Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,

for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Romans 3:23-26 (NLT)

And Be Blessed Beloved

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God?

No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law.

It is based on faith.

So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is.

There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law?

Of course not!

In fact,

only when

we have faith

do we truly fulfill the law. Romans 3:27-31

Love, Your Brother Joe

1to3 · January 10, 2015

Best to read ALL of !John ch2, ch3

1John 2:27,28,29

²⁶I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. ²⁷As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

God’s Children and Sin

²⁸And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

²⁹If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

1John 3 1,2,3,4,,5,6,7,8,9,1-,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24

1 John 3 New International Version (NIV)

3 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. ²Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,^[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. ³All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

⁴Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. ⁵But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. ⁶No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

⁷Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. ⁸The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. ⁹No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. ¹⁰This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

More on Love and Hatred

¹¹For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. ¹²Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. ¹³Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters,^[b] if the world hates you. ¹⁴We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. ¹⁵Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

¹⁶This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. ¹⁷If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? ¹⁸Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

¹⁹This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: ²⁰If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. ²¹Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God ²²and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. ²³And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. ²⁴The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Mr Nice · January 10, 2015

I tried to paste what I found on carm.org about this subject, but their format did not hold, so here is a link you can read.

Can a true Christian sin or not?

What needs to be understood is that we should always follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and obey Christ, but we are not perfect. We will fail to some degree now and then, showing us we are not perfect. To say we are prefect because of Christ is false humility. We are forgiven, not perfect.

Once again. Has a Christian confessed he has sinned? Yes. Therefore he is not saying he has no sin. These verses in 1 John 1 do not apply to one who has accepted Christ. As many claim John wrote this book to argue against agnostics who believed that all flesh was inherently evil and that the sins of the flesh were not counted against them because they were not of the flesh. They were truly claiming they had no sin in their entire lives therefore they had not sinned. It is those who believe they have never sinned in their life that he is referencing. A Christian comes to Christ because he has sinned and is seeking forgiveness of those sins. But he is not only seeking forgiveness, he is seeking all that Christ and God promised, with the main promise being the Holy Spirit. Christ makes us clean from our past but the Spirit keeps us clean thereafter by leading us into all that God commanded so that we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

The error is still in how you view practice. If you sin you have practiced sin, you have continued in sin, you have repeated that which you had done in the past. Christ says that he who commits sin is a slave to sin. What John is referring to in 1 John 3 is that is that to be a Son of God you cannot sin, for he who sins is of the devil for he has sinned from the beginning. How do you hold to your claim when you finish reading the chapter. John says he who keeps His commandments abides in Him.

1Jn 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Keeps is an absolute. You are either obeying them completely or you are not keeping them because you have committed sin (singular).

Likewise, 1Jn 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. If you sin then the evil one has touched you.

Christ said he who does the will of the Father. Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

What is the will of the Father? "Obey my voice."

Mat 21:28-31 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.' (29) "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went. (30) "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir'; but he did not go. (31) "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They *said, "The first." Jesus *said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

They tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of heaven because they have come to Christ with regret and turned and did as they were commanded. It is either we do or we don't. Only doing part of what He has commanded is the same if not worse then doing none of what He commanded.

We are commanded to abstain from every form of evil. If one commits a sin he has not abstained. 1Th 5:19-24 Do not quench the Spirit; (20) do not despise prophetic utterances. (21) But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; (22) abstain from every form of evil. (23) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (24) Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Do you love, know and abide in God? If you say yes but do not keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. For Christ said if you love me you will keep my commandments. John said in 1 John 2:3-6 if we keep His commandments we know Him and His love has been perfected in us, if we do not keep them then we are a liar.

Finally if what we do has nothing to do with our salvation, then all that we do is in vain. However, this is not what Paul says,

1Co 15:56-58 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; (57) but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

We are to be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing our toil is not in vain.

To practice anything is to do it over and over again, to become better at what we practice. How this is shown in scripture is that one takes pleasure in, to work to become proficient in ... not to commit sin once in awhile. Sinning does not mean we practice sin. This explanation twists the meaning of practice and distorts the meaning of the scripture where the idea is used. By applying this definition to scripture is twisting scripture itself.
We are not to continue in sin, but that does not mean we will not sin. From what I have read in this thread, along with the vast many threads in the past, those who believe we are "perfect" or we can live "sinless" always sidestep the fact that we still live in this life, in this flesh, which is always in contrast to the guiding and life in the Holy Spirit. Scripture does encourage us to live a sinless life, which we should all strive to do. Yet, and here is where some fail, they neglect the reasons why scripture continues to point to these instructions ... it is because we do sin.
If we are sinless after salvation, then God would of had no reason for instructing us how to live a righteous life in Him. Anyone who claims they have lived a sinless life after salvation is deceiving themselves and all those who want to believe they can be sinless. These people do not examine their lives, but just quote scripture and claim them as their life. Sorry people, name it and claim it is also a false teaching. We are to continue examining our walk in Him to see how we line up to scripture.
I once was taught that we could live a sinless life, but when I examined my most inner life in Christ, not the superficial part, but the heart, I always found myself short of the goal. This continuing feeling of failure drove me to study scripture deeper to discover where this theology came from. What I found was that this theology is man made and is not supported in scripture. Scripture does support having a sinless life is what we shoudl strive for, not what we have. That make is a continuing journey as we mature in Him, not a magical occurrence that happens to those who can accept it, and those who could not are lost and not His. This theology places a huge stumbling block in front of millions of believers who try to live a Christian life, placing in their way a goal that is not obtainable in this life. It is a twisting of scripture that leads people to question if they are even forgiven and saved, discouraging them at every turn, and should be shunned.
Do the study in scripture about the difference of growing in Christ, step by step, error by error, and the theology that once we are saved, we can be sinless. You will find that being sinless after salvation is not there. What is there is instructions on how to be more like Christ, which is what we all strive to become.

To practice anything is to do it over and over again, to become better at what we practice. How this is shown in scripture is that one takes pleasure in, to work to become proficient in ... not to commit sin once in awhile. Sinning does not mean we practice sin. This explanation twists the meaning of practice and distorts the meaning of the scripture where the idea is used. By applying this definition to scripture is twisting scripture itself.

Why does someone commit adultery? Because they are seeking pleasure elsewhere. How about murder? It is taking pleasure in revenge. Gossiping is done out of pleasure for tearing others down. Sin is an act of selfishness, meaning it is something that pleases you. It is taking pleasure in what you want to do instead of doing what pleases God.

If we are sinless after salvation, then God would of had no reason for instructing us how to live a righteous life in Him. Anyone who claims they have lived a sinless life after salvation is deceiving themselves and all those who want to believe they can be sinless. These people do not examine their lives, but just quote scripture and claim them as their life. Sorry people, name it and claim it is also a false teaching. We are to continue examining our walk in Him to see how we line up to scripture.

We are to examine ourselves to see if we fail the test. Paul said he tested them to see if they were obedient in all things, not the vast majority of things. He begins that chapter with saying if there are any who have sinned in the past and not repented that he will not spare anyone. Additionally Paul says he disciplines his body daily to keep it under control, so that the body is his slave in order to not be disqualified. He exercises self control in all things. Self control and sin don't mix. It is either you have self control or you don't.

2Co 13:2-6 I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well, that if I come again I will not spare anyone, (3) since you are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in me, and who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you. (4) For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you. (5) Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? (6) But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

1Co 9:23-27 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. (24) Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. (25) Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. (26) Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; (27) but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

We are not to continue in sin, but that does not mean we will not sin. From what I have read in this thread, along with the vast many threads in the past, those who believe we are "perfect" or we can live "sinless" always sidestep the fact that we still live in this life, in this flesh, which is always in contrast to the guiding and life in the Holy Spirit. Scripture does encourage us to live a sinless life, which we should all strive to do. Yet, and here is where some fail, they neglect the reasons why scripture continues to point to these instructions ... it is because we do sin.

Choosing to be led by the Spirit is recognizing we are still in this life and are tempted and tested to see if we fail the test. A temptation (a single temptation) is a test. If you given in to it then you have failed. It is choosing the second answer (eat of the fruit, you won't really die is what was said to Eve) which was wrong instead of the first answer (obedience through the Spirit) which was right. "To obey" OR "not to obey" is the question we are faced with in every single trial and temptation. If you choose to not obey you have failed. End of story. There is no partial credit for desiring to do good while doing what was wrong.

This theology places a huge stumbling block in front of millions of believers who try to live a Christian life, placing in their way a goal that is not obtainable in this life. It is a twisting of scripture that leads people to question if they are even forgiven and saved, discouraging them at every turn, and should be shunned.

Where in scripture does it say being free from sin, no longer sinning is not obtainable? This is exactly what Judah claimed when they were told if they would turn from their wicked ways and reform their deeds and their ways.

Jer 18:11-13 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."' (12) "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.' (13) "Therefore thus says the LORD, 'Ask now among the nations, Who ever heard the like of this? The virgin of Israel Has done a most appalling thing.

Likewise Israel said the same,

Jer 2:20-26 "For long ago I broke your yoke And tore off your bonds; But you said, 'I will not serve!' For on every high hill And under every green tree You have lain down as a harlot. (21) "Yet I planted you a choice vine, A completely faithful seed. How then have you turned yourself before Me Into the degenerate shoots of a foreign vine? (22) "Although you wash yourself with lye And use much soap, The stain of your iniquity is before Me," declares the Lord GOD. (23) "How can you say, 'I am not defiled, I have not gone after the Baals'? Look at your way in the valley! Know what you have done! You are a swift young camel entangling her ways, (24) A wild donkey accustomed to the wilderness, That sniffs the wind in her passion. In the time of her heat who can turn her away? All who seek her will not become weary; In her month they will find her. (25) "Keep your feet from being unshod And your throat from thirst; But you said, 'It is hopeless! No! For I have loved strangers, And after them I will walk.' (26) "As the thief is shamed when he is discovered, So the house of Israel is shamed; They, their kings, their princes And their priests and their prophets,

Notice also that God says he created a perfectly faithful seed. We turn away from Him when we sin, no longer being what He created yet you think He will accept us with occasional sin. You claim as Israel and Judah that it is hopeless that you can not turn completely to God returning to the state in which He created us. You claim that God cannot bring it to pass, that even with His gift of grace, the Spirit of Grace, whom He has given to us. You continue to deny the power of God in our lives. You are holding to a form of godliness but denying its power.

Do the study in scripture about the difference of growing in Christ, step by step, error by error, and the theology that once we are saved, we can be sinless. You will find that being sinless after salvation is not there. What is there is instructions on how to be more like Christ, which is what we all strive to become.

Yes I do study the scripture about growing in Christ. You neglect to understand that we are told to excel still more with respect to the fruit of the Spirit and to cease and abstain from all evil by removing it through His Spirit. We are never told to strive against sin as you continue to claim. We are to have His love perfected in us so that we are perfect as He is perfect and in so doing we will not be fearful on the day of judgement. His love cannot be perfected in us if we are not keeping His commands. You say we continually sin (being unable to cease from sin) doing harm to our neighbors and forsaking Him who created us to be like Him.

You claim that a single sin will not condemn us yet the destruction of the Israelites for grumbling and complaining, for worshiping an idol immediately after He gave them the command not to do so, etc. says it does.

1Co 10:5-11 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. (6) Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. (7) Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY." (8) Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. (9) Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. (10) Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. (11) Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Mr Nice

Mr Nice · January 10, 2015

If we sin we are none of these.

If We Say

If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 1 John 1:8-9 (NLT)

We Have No Sin

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:4-9

We Mock And Scorn The Blood Of Christ

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

And Talk About Sinning, Beloved We Have

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 Peter 2:24

Called God A Liar

If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts. 1 John 1:10 (NLT

~

Believe

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.

Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,

for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Romans 3:23-26 (NLT)

And Be Blessed Beloved

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God?

No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law.

It is based on faith.

So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is.

There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law?

Of course not!

In fact,

only when

we have faith

do we truly fulfill the law. Romans 3:27-31

Love, Your Brother Joe

The faith spoken of is an active faith. Simply believing Christ died on the cross for our sins is not faith in Christ. It is one small part of it. For Paul tells us that love fulfills the Law, that Christ fulfilled the requirements of the law for those who WALK according to the Spirit. Christ says unless we pick up our cross and follow Him we are not worthy of Him. Faith does not sit still.

3Jn 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.

I fully agree salvation is not based on following the Law because it could not save us. It is based on following Christ who not only defended the ten commandments, but He expounded on them. Explaining the full meaning behind what was commanded. Then He tells us the Law is summed up in Love God and Love your neighbor. If we are not doing these two things then we are sinning and will be judged by the Law because we are not in Christ. Those who are in Christ do not do these things.

We boast in Him for it is only through Him that we can do the works He prepared for us to do. None the less the works He set before us must still be done in order to demonstrate that we love God. For the one who hast not love does not know God.

1Jn_4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

If we do not love, if we hate a brother who is in need by not giving him of our abundance then we can not love God.

1Jn_4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

We cannot love the children of God unless we love God and keep His commandments. To say what we do has nothing to do with our salvation is contradictory to all of scripture. Faith and love cannot be separated.

1Jn 5:1-5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. (2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. (3) For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. (4) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. (5) Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Christ says if we have faith then nothing will be impossible to us. Therefore when one says he cannot overcome (cease from) sin it is because he does not have faith.

Mat 17:17-20 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me." (18) And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once. (19) Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?" (20) And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

For without faith it is impossible to please God.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Seeking is action.

hmbld · January 10, 2015

Luke 18:9-14. KJV. 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Mr Nice · January 11, 2015

How Do think God is incapable of guarding that which we have trusted to Him?

I don't. That has been my point. God is the one keeps me saved. I don't keep myself saved. Salvation comes from God alone and I am not granted the power to keep myself saved.

Your theology isn't about God keeping anything or anyone. Your theology sets you up as idol and as the one who keeps you saved. You are committing idolatry because your faith is not in God, but in yourself for salvation.   You don't need God. You are your own god. You are your own salvation.   When you have an idol (self) to worship, you don't need God.

So you don't believe what Peter said God has granted us, all of scripture for that matter. It is by His power He has granted us everything we need for life and godliness. Do you not believe He has granted us His precious and magnificent promises through which we can become partakers of His nature, having escaped the corruption of the world. It is His power we have been given in His Spirit which is why we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh if we are led by the Spirit. The inspired word of God, the gospel, the good news is the power of salvation to those who believe.

2Pe 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; (3) seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. (4) For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Luk 24:45-49 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, (46) and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, (47) and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. (48) "You are witnesses of these things. (49) "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."

Act 1:7-8 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; (8) but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

Act 4:33 And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.

Rom 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (17) For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, (19) because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

Rom 15:13-19 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. (14) And concerning you, my brethren, I myself also am convinced that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able also to admonish one another. (15) But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, (16) to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (17) Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining to God. (18) For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed, (19) in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

1Co 2:2-5 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. (3) I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, (4) and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, (5) so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

2Co 4:6-10 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. (7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; (8) we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; (9) persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; (10) always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.

2Co 6:1-10 And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain-- (2) for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION"-- (3) giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited, (4) but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, (5) in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger, (6) in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love, (7) in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left, (8) by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true; (9) as unknown yet well-known, as dying yet behold, we live; as punished yet not put to death, (10) as sorrowful yet always rejoicing, as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things.

Eph 1:18-20 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (19) and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might (20) which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

Eph 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, (15) from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, (16) that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, (17) so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, (18) may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, (19) and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. (20) Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, (21) to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Col 1:9-14 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, (10) so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; (11) strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously (12) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. (13) For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, (14) in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Col 1:28-29 We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. (29) For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

1Th 1:2-7 We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; (3) constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, (4) knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; (5) for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. (6) You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit, (7) so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.

2Th 1:11-12 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, (12) so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Ti 1:7-14 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. (8) Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, (9) who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, (10) but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, (11) for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher. (12) For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. (13) Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (14) Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

1Pe 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (4) to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, (5) who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (6) In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, (7) so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (8) and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, (9) obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

I have great concern for you and fear the following passages are describing you because you hold to a form of godliness but deny its power. Why do you want to deny the power of God to work in you and to keep you in Him without sin in your life? God knows how to rescue the godly from temptation. Let Him do it by believing He can. It is through His power that we can do all things as Paul says.

2Ti 3:1-7 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. (2) For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, (3) unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, (4) treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, (5) holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. (6) For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, (7) always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 2:1-22 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. (2) Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; (3) and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. (4) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; (5) and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; (6) and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; (7) and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (8) (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), (9) then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, (10) and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, (11) whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. (12) But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, (13) suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, (14) having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; (15) forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; (16) but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. (17) These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. (18) For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, (19) promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. (20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. (22) It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

There is no excuse for giving into temptation with all that God has promised. The problem you continue to have is you do not believe what God has said about temptation. He said we are not tempted beyond what we are able which means if you sin you have given yourself over to it. He also said He will always provide the way out.

Which shows that you don't really study the Bible very well.   The "temptation" being referenced in that verse is not the temptation to sin.   The KJV uses "temptation" in that verse to refer to trials and adversity. A better word is "tested."   God will not allow you to be "tested" above what you are able, but with every test provide a way of escape. He is talking about being tested or tried in the heat of persecution and tribulations. So you completely misapply that verse.

I agree that there is no excuse for sin. The Bible never helps us make an excuse for sin. But we do sin and do it without the need of an excuse.

Temptation, trial, and, test are synonymous. God is checking to see if we are going to be faithful to Him and to lean on Him for our strength and the way out or through what we are facing. Yes I study the Bible. The same word and context is used when speaking of Christ being tempted in the wilderness.

Luk 4:1-14 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness (2) for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And He ate nothing during those days, and when they had ended, He became hungry. (3) And the devil said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread." (4) And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE.'" (5) And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. (6) And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. (7) "Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours." (8) Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'" (9) And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here; (10) for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU,' (11) and, 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'" (12) And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is said, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'" (13) When the devil had finished every temptation, he left Him until an opportune time. (14) And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district.

Notice how he returned in the power of the Spirit. Christ was tempted to look to Himself instead of God. The word defined as tempted in these two passages is the same. Notice the processes are parallel, tempted by the devil, rescued by the way out provided by God. Christ

looked to God for His answers just like we are to look to God.

Committing sin is committing sin. It is independent of how many times. A liar is one who tells a lie. A thief is one who steals something. A murderer is one who kills one or more people. An adulterer is one who has only laid with his neighbor's wife once. God says none of these will enter the kingdom of heaven unless they repent and do them no longer. If we turn back and do that which we have put to death we are like a pig who returns to the mire after he has been cleaned.

The problem is that you are again misapplying Scripture. II Peter 2 in reference to a pig returning to his mud pit is talking about those who return to living in sin who commit apostasy and completely abandon the Christian faith. You are misapplying the text to mean that if you commit one sin you are like a pig returning to the mud and that is not what Peter said or meant.   Again, you pervert Scripture to support your godless theology.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

How can you claim one has escaped the defilements of the world if he is still sinning, still being overcome by satan, and not rescued by God from the temptation?

Do you disagree with the following statements? A liar is one who tells a lie. A thief is one who steals something. A murderer is one who kills one or more people. An adulterer is one who has only laid with his neighbor's wife once.

God says none of these will enter.

You say if we claim we don't stumble that we are not being completely honest with ourselves. John says if you claim to know God but do not keep his commandments you are a liar, meaning those who claim this are deceiving themselves. I think I will listen to what John is saying.

Right. If you claim to love God but live in disobedience.   John is referring to a general lifestyle of disobedience wherein you reject God's commandments altogether. He is not talking about an occasional sin.

No John is not speaking of a life style. God is not partial. If we are fulfilling the desires of the flesh, even one, God is not in us. We deceive ourselves if we claim He is. We must deny our selves completely and follow Him. We must let His power reign in our bodies, if any sin remains we have not denied our self. You claim a single sin will not do this yet that is what happened with Simon the Sorcerer and Ananias and Saphira. When they sinned they had the sentence of death on them. Simon recognized this and chose to repent. Ananias and Saphira did not and they died. Single sin, two possible outcomes. God is patient, wanting all to come to repentance so that none should perish. His patience does not negate the penalty of sin. Are you saying that you never commit the same sin twice? Or repeat it again after you say you have repented of that sin? That is the problem with trying to define sin as habitual.

Please demonstrate to us outside of Romans 7 and 1 John 1 where your beliefs are justified. Paul cannot claim he once was disobedient if he has never ceased from sin.

Actually Paul never claimed that he was 100% obedient after he got saved. You won't find one place where Paul makes that claim. And the book of Acts actually reveals a flaw in Paul when he bore a grudge against John Mark.

A lot of Christians are slugging it out in the trenches dealing with problematic family members that try their patience, that bring out the worst in them. They struggle with not being fearful because they can't pay the rent and are about to be evicted and don't know where to go. They are serving God, staying in prayer and Bible study and they are plugged into a local church, but real life is taking its toll and the Lord is all they have to hold on to, and they do it imperfectly and sometimes they win and sometimes they don't. That's where people were at in Paul's day and it where people are at today.

How else do you interpret the following passages if it doesn't mean Paul claimed he was 100% obedient?

"Tit 3:3-7 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. (4) But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, (5) He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (6) whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, (7) so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Eph 2:3-7 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Christ told a parable about this very topic and is usually referred to as the parable of the sower. The problem with your analogy is the people you are describing are identical to those who turned away from the truth. They are the ones who were sown among the rocks and thorns. They fall away in times of temptation. This is how you are describing Paul as well if you believe Romans 7 was him saying he continue to sin.

First of all, I didn't give an analogy. There are Christians who live in trying circumstances and many of them are at different stages of maturity in their Christian walk.   That is something that a judgmental person like you refuses to take into account.    These are not people who fall away. They are people who are still serving and following God, but are imperfect in it.   Your position possesses no grace.   Your position is, "either be 100% perfect or go to hell."

You don't take into account the fact that people get saved out of some very difficult circumstances. Getting saved doesn't mean that your past suddenly goes away. Christians get saved in the middle of some pretty horrific life situations and everything doesn't get fixed automatically. Sanctification is process and addictions don't always just go away and old habits don't always just disappear overnight.   There is a process of deliverance that occurs for most people. And people sin in the middle of that process. That is why we have the grace of God.   No one is trying to make excuses, but at the same time, people do fail and they need the grace that picks them up and forgives them and gives them a second chance.

Your theology makes no room for that. Your position condemns people to hell for for even a single sin and there is no grace for that person. You refuse to make distinction between a person who   is trying to serve God and stumbles vs. a person who sins habitually and doesn't care.   The Bible makes a distinction and is careful to make that distinction. There is place in the Bible where a single sin condemns a Christian to hell. You cannot provide one verse that condemns Christians to hell over a single sin.

Whether it was an analogy or not doesn't matter. The point of the parable is the same. The parable doesn't say they fell away, they still believed in Christ but they were no longer bearing fruit having been choked by the cares of the world. If they are give into temptation they have fallen away. In either case they will not be accepted by God. Read the parables and their explanations.

These whom you describe also sound like those who Christ spoke of in Matthew 7. They were doing all these things (serving God, staying in prayer and Bible study and they are plugged into a local church,) in His name, where he says:

Mat 7:21-24 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. (22) "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (24) "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Again, more sloppy theology.   Matt. 7:21-24 is talking about false prophets, if you look at the context. In fact, it is interesting that you would bring that verse up. Because the people in that verse are not people who fell away. Notice that they appealed to all the good things they did. They recall all of the great works they performed. They were appealing to Jesus, not on the basis of grace, but on the basis of the good works they performed. They list off all of their good works and Jesus said, depart from me you worker of iniquity for I never knew you.   That's the position YOU'RE in.   You are appealing to your good works and how sinless you think you are. You don't appeal to God's grace at all. Your focus is completely on works and you downplay the grace of God and you deny the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross but you emphasize your good works and Jesus will look at YOU and say, "Sorry, I never knew you."   The people who Jesus rejected were the people who appealed to Him on the basis of their goodness and good works.

No, he was speaking of those who were not producing good fruit. They were producing bad fruit and not doing the will of the Father. It is the same as what Paul was saying that even if he gave himself up to be burned then it profited him nothing if he did not have love. Love is what these people did not have. Paul was saying that nothing he did would profit him if he did not have love. Christ is saying the same, even though they did all of these things in His name, he said they were workers of iniquity, who had not done the will of the Father. It wasn't about what they were doing it was about what they had not done, God's will. They were not known by God because they were not producing good fruit.

1Co 13:1-3 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. (2) If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (3) And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

I fully accept Christ's work on the cross and at the same time I accept the full grace of God which is what you do not. You cover up your sin using your lack of faith in everything God has promised to do.

You define falling away as turning completely away from God. The Bible defines it as simply forsaking God's commands and not obeying His voice. God's grace is so much more than just Christ's death on the cross. Open your mind and heart to all that He has promised. God was constantly chastising the children of Israel because they tried to claim they were serving God while they were serving their flesh. They were keeping some of what God commanded and that was never sufficient. When a person sins their heart is far from God.

They are workers of lawlessness if they are doing what you said they were doing because of the cares of the world. You speak of people having hard times in their lives and try to use them to justify your claim we will all continue to sin. Another bold claim considering Paul says he and others endured all things for the cause of Christ being strong in faith. Our circumstances give us no excuse for sinning.

No, they are not workers of lawlessness. Lawlessness is complete abandonment. A Lawless person is a person who is irretrievably wicked who has no compunction about sin. A lawless person isn't a person who commits just ONE sin. A lawless person is a person who is continually and habitually disobedient and they don't care. That is not what the parable is teaching. But you wouldn't know because your false teaching perverts the Holy Word of God.

So your are saying that if I am serving God with 1% of my life that I am not a worker of lawlessness because I have not completely abandoned God. Sin is lawlessness, plain and simple. Lawlessness is not a state we are in it is what man does when they don't fear God. It is violation of the Law. Verse 23 three calls them workers of lawlessness. You have yet to define practicing sin with reference to how many times a person must commit the same sin. Is it once, twice, 10, 1000, etc.? When a person sins they violate the Law which is defined as lawlessness. It takes once to violate the Law and we are told that if we violate one of the Laws we are guilty of breaking them all. Violation of God's Law has always separated him from God.

Mat 13:41-42 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, (42) and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 23:28-29 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (29) "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

2Co 6:14-18 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? (15) Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? (16) Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. (17) "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. (18) "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

If we don't have to cease or abstain from all wickedness, why were we commanded to do so? You have done everything you can to nullify the command of God. We are to be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees. They were teachers of the Law but failed to do as they taught. We are to teach the law of Christ and keep it. Christ defined what it meant to be more righteous throughout the rest of the chapter, ending with "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. The message Christ presented is that we are to love god and one another. The scribes and Pharisees were not loving as they were commanded.

Mat 5:18-22 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (19) "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. (21) "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' (22) "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Sign In

Join Worthy Christian Forums today!

Christian perfection

Recommended Posts

Guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Wildstar

Joshua-777

Wildstar

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest shiloh357

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Recently Browsing 0 members

Similar Content