Christian perfection

[tway]

I like the question but not sure if im supposted to answer here but i will respond with out answering and look forward to the question getting reposted

in a nut shell, looking into being justified by faith. Faith is essencial to our walk ( we only need the size of a mustard seed)

Edited January 1, 2015 by tway

[OneLight]

I moved this topic to the appropriate forum so your question can be answered without going against the Welcome Forum guidelines.

[FreeinChrist]

If we caBennot walk blameless why did Christ command us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? Why did Paul pray that we would be able to walk blameless until the Lord returns, Philippians 1:8-11? How could John say "as He is so are we in this world", 1 John 4:15-21? How can we prove ourselves to be blameless and innocent children of God in a perverse generation, Philippians 2:14-16, if we continue to commit willful sin? Why are we told we can extinguish all the flaming arrows of Satan if we have faith, Ephesians 6:16, if we cannot walk without committing sin as a Christian? I have many more questions but I will wait.

 

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father Who is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:48

Just read Matthew 5:43-47, and you will find out Christ was not commanding sinless perfection, but the perfection of Love thru the Holy Spirit.

And above all these things put on the charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Colossians 3:14   Charity is the same as love.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

I Peter 1:22

Love this is what the Spirit spreads abroad in our hearts, Romans 5:5; and this why Jesus said we would be known by our love, John 13:34-35.  From what I understand this is what John Wesley saw as being fully sanctify, not sinlessness, but having God's love so filling our hearts that the brethren can fell it being around you.  I have been honored to meet two such people in my life in person and both were women this is when you know that they have been in God's presence.

 

Beside fleeing idolatry, I Corinthians 10:14; one of other sins that God never wants His children to commit, and it is one of the most acceptable sins around.  God never will justify a believer being unforgiving, for that matter when we refuse to forgive others is one of the few times, God doesn't call Himself our Heavenly Father, just Father, (and think of what kind of problem were cause when you were disobedient to your earthly father--Hebrews 12:5-11).

14)  For, if ye forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15)  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 6:14-15

Here in Matthew's Gospel God is our Heavenly Father who forgives us if forgive others, but if not He is just the Father who doesn't forgive us; by the way this reads we will all sin and need His forgiveness, and it is free as long as we forgive others. Notice God doesn't mention our trespasses at all when we forgive other, because Christ has may us righteous, II Corinthians 5:21; but we are fully charge with our trespasses when we don't forgive others.

 

Paul wrote of His need for Christ forgiveness for sins, even after he accepted Christ:

24)  O wretched man that i am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25)  I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord.  So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 7:24-25

 

And as the two verses surrounding Willa, I John 1:9 (great verse Willa) state:

8)    If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

10)  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I John 1:8; 10

 

 

 

Welcome. There is a balance. To those who think when they are saved they can continue to live a sinful lifestyle, God admonishes to turn away from wickedness and walk in the Spirit. To those who continually fail in their struggle against sin and cannot forgive themselves, He comforts with the the knowledge that He sees them as bearing in themselves the righteousness of Christ. God tries to spare us the misery of the hell we make of our lives by living in sin. He came to bring us an abundant life full of joy, peace and the fruit of the Spirit. I do agree with Shiloh.

Blessings,

Willa

 

Great answer, as always Shiloh and Willa.

 

[Joshua-777]

Can a Christian, who believes in all the promises of God and the He who is in him is greater than he who is in the world, live the rest of his days blameless and fully sanctfied?

If you have to wait until you die to be blameless and sanctified, then Jesus isn't your savior, death is. Christ has become our righteousness, in Him we are blameless. He gave us righteousness as a gift and His Spirit in us to empower us to walk it out.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

We are no longer slaves to sin.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Romans 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

So be fully convinced (Reckon)

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What you believe concerning this will either justify sin in your life, or set you free so you can enjoy the loving relationship with the Father with a perfect conscience. If we believe we are sinners, we will sin by faith, but if we believe that He is our righteousness, He paid for our sins and made us blameless in His sight then we have freedom to live in the joy of His righteousness.

As for me, I am fully convinced God's ability to keep me from stumbling is greater than my ability to fail.

 

[Joshua-777]

 

If we caBennot walk blameless why did Christ command us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? Why did Paul pray that we would be able to walk blameless until the Lord returns, Philippians 1:8-11? How could John say "as He is so are we in this world", 1 John 4:15-21? How can we prove ourselves to be blameless and innocent children of God in a perverse generation, Philippians 2:14-16, if we continue to commit willful sin? Why are we told we can extinguish all the flaming arrows of Satan if we have faith, Ephesians 6:16, if we cannot walk without committing sin as a Christian? I have many more questions but I will wait.

 

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father Who is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:48

Just read Matthew 5:43-47, and you will find out Christ was not commanding sinless perfection, but the perfection of Love thru the Holy Spirit.

And above all these things put on the charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Colossians 3:14   Charity is the same as love.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

I Peter 1:22

Love this is what the Spirit spreads abroad in our hearts, Romans 5:5; and this why Jesus said we would be known by our love, John 13:34-35.  From what I understand this is what John Wesley saw as being fully sanctify, not sinlessness, but having God's love so filling our hearts that the brethren can fell it being around you.  I have been honored to meet two such people in my life in person and both were women this is when you know that they have been in God's presence.

 

Beside fleeing idolatry, I Corinthians 10:14; one of other sins that God never wants His children to commit, and it is one of the most acceptable sins around.  God never will justify a believer being unforgiving, for that matter when we refuse to forgive others is one of the few times, God doesn't call Himself our Heavenly Father, just Father, (and think of what kind of problem were cause when you were disobedient to your earthly father--Hebrews 12:5-11).

14)  For, if ye forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15)  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 6:14-15

Here in Matthew's Gospel God is our Heavenly Father who forgives us if forgive others, but if not He is just the Father who doesn't forgive us; by the way this reads we will all sin and need His forgiveness, and it is free as long as we forgive others. Notice God doesn't mention our trespasses at all when we forgive other, because Christ has may us righteous, II Corinthians 5:21; but we are fully charge with our trespasses when we don't forgive others.

 

Paul wrote of His need for Christ forgiveness for sins, even after he accepted Christ:

24)  O wretched man that i am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25)  I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord.  So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 7:24-25

 

And as the two verses surrounding Willa, I John 1:9 (great verse Willa) state:

8)    If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

10)  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I John 1:8; 10

 

 

 

Welcome. There is a balance. To those who think when they are saved they can continue to live a sinful lifestyle, God admonishes to turn away from wickedness and walk in the Spirit. To those who continually fail in their struggle against sin and cannot forgive themselves, He comforts with the the knowledge that He sees them as bearing in themselves the righteousness of Christ. God tries to spare us the misery of the hell we make of our lives by living in sin. He came to bring us an abundant life full of joy, peace and the fruit of the Spirit. I do agree with Shiloh.

Blessings,

Willa

 

Great answer, as always Shiloh and Willa.

 

In Romans 7, Paul is talking about about following God under the law, (Torah) in the flesh. The point of that is the law itself cannot produce righteousness because it is weak through the flesh. We need something else, the Spirit. We have been set free from the law, that we may serve Him in the newness of the Spirit.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul brought the Romans 7 struggle to a beautiful conclusion in Romans 8.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

If Paul was referring to his personal struggle as a believer, then he lied to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.

And also in court,

Acts 23:1Then Paul, looking earnestly at the council, said, “Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day

 

[JFSurvivor]

**removed**

 

All videos posted on worthy must be placed in the video forum first.

The videos placed in the appropriate forum are then watched and approved by a members of the ministry prior to being released

Edited January 2, 2015 by ncn

[Guest shiloh357]

 Romans 7 is not about Paul's life and struggle with sin prior to conversion.  Paul speaks to the inner struggle of the flesh against the Spirit which he highlights in Galatians.   Rom. 7:14-25 is Paul's admittance.   Paul makes it clear, particularly in verses. 18-25 that sin dwells in his flesh (sinful nature).  The sinful nature, our propensity to sin has not been eradicated.  We are still sinful people.

 

The New Testament never anticipates that Christians will walk in sinless perfection while living in this world, prior to receiving our glorified bodies.   The sin nature will not be eradicated until either a person dies and goes home to be with Jesus or the Lord returns and receive our glorified bodies at that time.

 

We are made objectively holy the moment we are born again.  I am objectively perfected by the blood of Jesus and the part of me that is born of God never sins.  However, my flesh, my sinful nature was not removed at salvation and there is still a personal struggle taking place.

 

I may not be living aberrant sinfulness, but to presume that I never sin  is just arrogant.  We sin in commission or omission.  None of could ever possibly live to the same righteous standard that Jesus lived.    The Bible tells us that we are set apart and made holy in Christ.  Every demand that God makes of us, His grace provides.   We are commanded to live holy lives, upright and blameless.  We are to live above sin and to conduct ourselves in a manner that reflects  the holiness of God that He has wrought in us.   We are not commanded to manufacture the holiness of God through our own efforts.

 

I am not made holy before God by virtue of anything I do.  I am made holy through grace of God and finished work of Jesus on the cross.   The one thing we really need to get a hold of is that God everything we need from God is provided by Jesus.   There is nothing we could possibly achieve through our own efforts that the grace of God through Jesus hasn't already provided.   Our works are meant to be a display of holiness, not the means of achieving it. 

[Mr Nice]

 

 

F

If we cannot walk blameless why did Christ command us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect?

The word "perfect" in the Greek is not referring to flawless perfection.   It refers to maturity and completeness with God as our plumline.  We are not commanded to be as flawless as He is; that would be an absurd, unreachable goal as God's perfection cannot be obtained by any creature.

 

First we must understand the perfection Christ spoke about in Matthew 5. It means to be perfect in love, nothing lacking in anything, complete.  We know that if our love is perfected then "as He is so are we in this world".  

 

1Jn 4:11-21  Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.  (12)  No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.  (13)  By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.  (14)  We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.  (15)  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.  (16)  We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.  (17)  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.  (18)  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.  (19)  We love, because He first loved us.  (20)  If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.  (21)  And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

 

Like wise John states the love of God is perfected in those who keep His word (commandments).

 

1Jn 2:3-6  By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.  (4)  The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;  (5)  but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:  (6)  the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

 John also speaks about fear in chapter 4.  See above passage.  Those who love God with perfect love have no fear, but if you are not perfected in love then there will be fear of judgement.   Therefore if sin still reigns in our body (if we are still being obedient to sin) then we should be fearful.  If we are loving God and loving one another then we are doing no harm to one another and thus we are fulfilling the law.  

 

Rom 13:8-14  Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.  (9)  For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."  (10)  Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.  (11)  Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.  (12)  The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.  (13)  Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.  (14)  But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

 

How do we go about loving one another so that we are not under the Law?  We choose to be lead by the Spirit thus producing the fruit of the Spirit.

 

Gal 5:22-25  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  (23)  gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.  (24)  Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.  (25)  If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

 

Why did Paul pray that we would be able to walk blameless until the Lord returns, Philippians 1:8-11?

 

In the Greek it means to live inoffensively.   It doesn't mean to live without committing a single sin, as you seem to interpret it.  It means that the world cannot accuse us of hypocrisy or of being two-faced, living one way and preaching something else.  It is referring to the general character of the Christian life being blameless and faultless.  But in no way does it mean we are live without ever committing a single sin.

 

I will have to ask you what Greek dictionary are you using because that is not the definition according to Strong's and Thayer's dictionaries.  Blameless means to be without offense, cannot be accused of any wrong doing.  If a person commits a single sin then they will be accused of sinning against God.  

 

I must also question how you believe that committing sin against God is not offensive to Him or to those whom have been sinned against.  Does sleeping with your neighbors wife not offensive/harmful to him and his wife, let alone God?  Didn't Paul chastise the Jews about being hypocrites because they were teaching others to obey God, while at the same time they were not being obedient?  He asked them the following questions below in Romans 2.  His conclusion is then that God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because they are dishonoring God, teaching one thing but doing another.

 

Rom 2:21-24  you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?  (22)  You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?  (23)  You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?  (24)  For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

 

Paul is not speaking of one's general character.  He states the one who is walking this way has been filled with the fruit of righteousness (fruit of the Spirit).  If one is filled with the fruit of the Spirit and they are practicing those things then they will never stumble, 2 Peter 1:5-11.  In so doing, the entrance into the kingdom of heaven will be abundantly supplied to them.  

 

Let's address it a different way. Was Adam and Eve blameless when they ate of the tree?  Was King Saul blameless when he chose to not obey God and kept the best of the cattle and the king Agag alive?  How about Simon the sorcerer for wanting the ability to give the Holy Spirit by laying his hands on people?  How about the man who had his father's wife?  Were all of these people blameless after committing these single acts of sin?  No, they all had fault against them.  They were all accused of sinning against God?  How many sins did any of us have to commit before we could be accused of disobeying God, before we were no longer considered blameless?  The answer is one single sin.  If it is not a single sin, then how many sins can we commit before we are no longer blameless?  This is an absurd question to even ask for sin (singular) is lawlessness.

 

Just to be clear, I am speaking about the life as a Christian when it comes to living without sinning.  Because all mankind has sinned at some point in their life but this in no way means we will continue to sin.  Blameless is only one of the words used to define what we are to be.  We are told to be spotless, without stain from the world, righteous as He is righteous, pure as He is pure.  They all mean the same thing, life without sin.

It is referring to the general character of the Christian life being blameless and faultless.  But in no way does it mean we are live without ever committing a single sin.

 

Agreed!

 

Like this...

 

 Gen 17:1  When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless, 

Gen 17:2  that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly." 

 

What Law did Abraham have before him to keep in order to be blameless?  None, the Law came 430 years later.  He only needed to obey the voice of God which is exactly what he did.  Abraham believed God could do all things including allowing Sarah to have a child and that God would bring his son Isaac back to life after sacrificing him.  Therefore he did as God commanded him to do by faith and it was credited to him as righteousness.  Notice that in order for God to make His covenant with Abraham, Abraham had to do something, walk before Him blamelessly.  

 

Do any who are in disagreement with what I am saying believe the following?  Each of these is stated in scripture.

 

We can do all things through Him who strengthens us.

If we ask without doubting we will receive our requests.

That God is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power (Holy Spirit) that works within us.

That He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world.

With God all things are possible.

We are not tempted beyond what we can bear and God always provides a way out.

God is able to keep us from stumbling.

God has given us everything for life and godliness and that through His magnificent promises we are able to partake of His divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

That if we practice the fruit of the Spirit that we will never stumble.

That those who have suffered in the flesh as He suffered have ceased from sin.

That Paul once was disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.  That is to say he no longer was these things after coming to Christ.  

If anyone walks in the day (Light), he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.  But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.

If you love Him you will keep His commandments.

God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

If we put on the full armor of God, we will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 

By taking up the shield of faith we will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 

We can prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom we appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life.

We can walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, pleasing Him in all respects, by bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; by being strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience.

 

If you do believe these things, why do you believe it is impossible for us to cease from sin as a Christian?  If God has promised us all these things does not God have the right to judge us for not keeping His commandments.  For we have no excuse for continuing to sin based on what He has promised, which first and for most is His Spirit through whom we won't obey the lusts of the flesh.

 

Do you not find it strange that you are  trying to use scripture justify why sin is still in your life instead of using scripture to eliminate sin from your life?  Is this not using your liberty as a covering for evil?  Are we not supposed to be bondslaves of God?

 

1Pe 2:15-16  For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.  (16)  Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.  

 

For what purpose have we been called?  We are to suffer as Christ suffered for doing good by following the example He set for us.

 

1Pe 2:20-24  For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.  (21)  For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,  (22)  WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;  (23)  and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;  (24)  and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

[Mr Nice]

 

Can a Christian, who believes in all the promises of God and the He who is in him is greater than he who is in the world, live the rest of his days blameless and fully sanctfied?

If you have to wait until you die to be blameless and sanctified, then Jesus isn't your savior, death is. Christ has become our righteousness, in Him we are blameless. He gave us righteousness as a gift and His Spirit in us to empower us to walk it out.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

We are no longer slaves to sin.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Romans 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

So be fully convinced (Reckon)

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What you believe concerning this will either justify sin in your life, or set you free so you can enjoy the loving relationship with the Father with a perfect conscience. If we believe we are sinners, we will sin by faith, but if we believe that He is our righteousness, He paid for our sins and made us blameless in His sight then we have freedom to live in the joy of His righteousness.

As for me, I am fully convinced God's ability to keep me from stumbling is greater than my ability to fail.

 

 

AMEN.  One who believes in all that God has promised us.

[Mr Nice]

 

If we caBennot walk blameless why did Christ command us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect? Why did Paul pray that we would be able to walk blameless until the Lord returns, Philippians 1:8-11? How could John say "as He is so are we in this world", 1 John 4:15-21? How can we prove ourselves to be blameless and innocent children of God in a perverse generation, Philippians 2:14-16, if we continue to commit willful sin? Why are we told we can extinguish all the flaming arrows of Satan if we have faith, Ephesians 6:16, if we cannot walk without committing sin as a Christian? I have many more questions but I will wait.

 

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father Who is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:48

Just read Matthew 5:43-47, and you will find out Christ was not commanding sinless perfection, but the perfection of Love thru the Holy Spirit.

And above all these things put on the charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Colossians 3:14   Charity is the same as love.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

I Peter 1:22

Love this is what the Spirit spreads abroad in our hearts, Romans 5:5; and this why Jesus said we would be known by our love, John 13:34-35.  From what I understand this is what John Wesley saw as being fully sanctify, not sinlessness, but having God's love so filling our hearts that the brethren can fell it being around you.  I have been honored to meet two such people in my life in person and both were women this is when you know that they have been in God's presence.

 

Beside fleeing idolatry, I Corinthians 10:14; one of other sins that God never wants His children to commit, and it is one of the most acceptable sins around.  God never will justify a believer being unforgiving, for that matter when we refuse to forgive others is one of the few times, God doesn't call Himself our Heavenly Father, just Father, (and think of what kind of problem were cause when you were disobedient to your earthly father--Hebrews 12:5-11).

14)  For, if ye forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15)  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 6:14-15

Here in Matthew's Gospel God is our Heavenly Father who forgives us if forgive others, but if not He is just the Father who doesn't forgive us; by the way this reads we will all sin and need His forgiveness, and it is free as long as we forgive others. Notice God doesn't mention our trespasses at all when we forgive other, because Christ has may us righteous, II Corinthians 5:21; but we are fully charge with our trespasses when we don't forgive others.

 

Paul wrote of His need for Christ forgiveness for sins, even after he accepted Christ:

24)  O wretched man that i am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25)  I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord.  So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 7:24-25

 

And as the two verses surrounding Willa, I John 1:9 (great verse Willa) state:

8)    If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

10)  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I John 1:8; 10

 

 

 

Welcome. There is a balance. To those who think when they are saved they can continue to live a sinful lifestyle, God admonishes to turn away from wickedness and walk in the Spirit. To those who continually fail in their struggle against sin and cannot forgive themselves, He comforts with the the knowledge that He sees them as bearing in themselves the righteousness of Christ. God tries to spare us the misery of the hell we make of our lives by living in sin. He came to bring us an abundant life full of joy, peace and the fruit of the Spirit. I do agree with Shiloh.

Blessings,

Willa

 

Great answer, as always Shiloh and Willa.

 

Your argument about what perfection is just supported what I have been saying.  If we are perfected in love, will we or will we not keep His commandments?  If we are perfected in love, will we do harm to our neighbor?  We will keeps His commandments, for those who love Him keep them and in so doing we will not harm our neighbor and thus fulfill the Law.  Yes, all of this is done by being lead by His Spirit to not fulfill the desires of the flesh, thus being sinless as a Christian.

 

When do we know we are perfected in love?  We are truly perfected in love when we keep His commandments, 1 John 2:3-6.

 

Pointing out that our sins will not be forgiven if we don't forgive others is another supporting statement for what I have been stating. If we forgive all but one person our sins will not be forgiven.  That is to say for one single failure.

 

If living without out sin in our lives as a Christian is impossible why would Christ have laid such a heavy burden on the harlot by telling her to go and sin no more?

 

Seriously, Romans 7 is not about Paul's life as a Christian.  Just read the first six verses.  If our old man is still living  while we claim we are married to Christ (if we are still sinning as Christians) then we are committing adultery with Christ.  If chapter 7 is about Paul's life as a Christian, than Paul lied multiple times in his epistles.  For he says to imitate him as he imitates Christ.  He said he once was disobedient.  If Paul continued to sin a Christian then he was not imitating Christ and he was still disobedient. What can save us from the body of death which we are in while under the Law?  Christ is the only one who can save us.  How does He save us?  First He died on the cross while we were yet sinners, while we were still helpless.  In so doing He fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law.  For whom did He fulfill the requirements of the Law?  It is not those who are living according to the flesh (those who sin) but it was for those who walk according to the Spirit, Romans 8:1-4.  As stated earlier if we are walking according to the Spirit we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh and will not be under the Law.  Christ died to bring us out of darkness into His marvelous Light, putting us under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, setting us free from the law of sin and death.  If we continue to sin then we are not free from the law of sin.  We are still slaves to disobedience.

 

Someone else commented earlier about how miserable it would be to always live in fear of losing one's salvation.  I say the opposite, how miserable it would be to live always believing I am a wretched man who always fails to please God.  If we are perfected in love, 1 John  says we will have no fear.  Why?  Because we will not be sinning and thus will not be judged by the Law, therefore there will be no punishment.  

 

1Jn 4:17-18  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.  (18)  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

Again with 1 John 1:8 and 10.  This can not describe a Christian for a Christian is one who believes they have sinned.  Whereas if we claim we continue to sin, not keeping His commandments, then we are also claiming that we do not know God, chapter 2:3-6. If we claim to know God but do not keep His commandments then we are liars and the truth is not in us.