Christian perfection

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 Romans 7 is not about Paul's life and struggle with sin prior to conversion.  Paul speaks to the inner struggle of the flesh against the Spirit which he highlights in Galatians.   Rom. 7:14-25 is Paul's admittance.   Paul makes it clear, particularly in verses. 18-25 that sin dwells in his flesh (sinful nature).  The sinful nature, our propensity to sin has not been eradicated.  We are still sinful people.

 

The New Testament never anticipates that Christians will walk in sinless perfection while living in this world, prior to receiving our glorified bodies.   The sin nature will not be eradicated until either a person dies and goes home to be with Jesus or the Lord returns and receive our glorified bodies at that time.

 

We are made objectively holy the moment we are born again.  I am objectively perfected by the blood of Jesus and the part of me that is born of God never sins.  However, my flesh, my sinful nature was not removed at salvation and there is still a personal struggle taking place.

 

I may not be living aberrant sinfulness, but to presume that I never sin  is just arrogant.  We sin in commission or omission.  None of could ever possibly live to the same righteous standard that Jesus lived.    The Bible tells us that we are set apart and made holy in Christ.  Every demand that God makes of us, His grace provides.   We are commanded to live holy lives, upright and blameless.  We are to live above sin and to conduct ourselves in a manner that reflects  the holiness of God that He has wrought in us.   We are not commanded to manufacture the holiness of God through our own efforts.

 

I am not made holy before God by virtue of anything I do.  I am made holy through grace of God and finished work of Jesus on the cross.   The one thing we really need to get a hold of is that God everything we need from God is provided by Jesus.   There is nothing we could possibly achieve through our own efforts that the grace of God through Jesus hasn't already provided.   Our works are meant to be a display of holiness, not the means of achieving it. 

 

If Paul still commits sin then he is under the Law because sin is contrary to the fruit of the Spirit which is not under the Law, therefore he would be judged by the Law instead of the law of Christ.  I agree our propensity to sin is not eradicated, but that does not mean we are sinful.  Can a Christian fall into temptation? Absolutely, if he turns from Christ and is not lead by the Spirit, but that doesn't mean he will sin or that he is still a sinful person. If he believes he is incapable of sinning he is incorrect, but this does not mean he will sin.  Galatians 5:17 speaks of the spiritual battle which occurs between the the Spirit and the flesh, but it is not stating the flesh continually wins.  This is evident in verses 22 - 25 where Paul says those who who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and if we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. If we our claiming we have crucified our flesh with its passions and desires then we are claiming it no longer has power over us.

 

Actually, your propensity to sin is the surest sign that you are still a sinner.   What places a person under the law is the notion that one can be made holy through one's efforts.   The notion that obedience to God's commandments is an impediment to sin like what you teach is proof that you are under the law and not under grace.  You are not in Christ.  You are trying earn salvation through your own fleshy good works, and you have not trusted in Christ for salvation.

 

Why do you continue to claim that being lead by the Spirit is performing my own fleshly works?  If that is the case than all the works Paul and the Apostles did were their own fleshly works because what they did was through His Spirit.  It is through His Spirit of Grace which He has given unto us that we are able to do that which He commanded.  How do you get my works out of His works?

 

How do you read the New Testament and not find scripture that speaks of us as walking in sinless perfection as Christians?  Every bit of the New Testament is speaking living for Christ, following His example of not sinning, crucifying the flesh, burying the old man in baptism, being raised in newness of life to serve God and God alone.  If we are not expected to stop sinning, why was it commanded so many times in both the Old and the New Testaments?  If we were not expected to stop sinning as a Christian, how do explain the following passages?

 

The New Testament, nowhere anticipates that we will live as to never commit even a single sin the rest of our lives.  Paul is constantly having to deal with sin in the churches.  So is John.  There is no indication in any of the epistles that their sin means that all those people are condemned to hell and Paul never claims that anyone is condemned to hell simply because they committed a sin.   That is just something YOU made up.

 

Yes we are commanded to stop sinning, but the Bible also tells us that God's grace is here for us when we do sin, to forgive and keep us saved.  If salvation is based on me living right then there is no salvation.  Do you really want to stand before God on the basis of your own merit?   Do you want salvation to be based on your effort?   Do you trust in yourself to meet God's standard of perfection? 

 

God has only one standard of perfection:  HIMSELF.    You would have to be as sinless as God in order to be saved according to the standard you keep trying to erect here.   That means that you have to have been as sinless as God from birth.  You can never meet God's standard of perfection.  The ONLY person to ever be as sinless God the Father is Jesus.  Jesus was sinless from birth and unlike you, Jesus had no sin nature.   He didn't have the stain of sin on Him to taint his good works.    You, on the other hand, are stained with the sin into which you were born.  So everything you do is imperfect and worthless and stained with sin.   That is why trying to keep your salvation through your own efforts is pointless and futile and why trusting in your efforts for salvation will only guarantee that you will wind up in Hell.

 

We are commanded to live holy lives.  God holds up the standard before us, but it is a standard we can't meet.  God's standard of holiness can only be met through Christ IN us.   We cannot by force of our own efforts achieve that standard God has set.   He doesn't make our salvation conditional on us living up to His standard.   Christ is the standard and Christ has met God's requirements on our behalf, and all that He has done is imputed to us.  His righteousness is imputed to us when we are born again.   The righteousness we cannot achieve in our own strength, God provides.   God, by His grace also provides the holiness He demands. 

 

God commands us to be Holy as HE is holy.   We can't.   Nothing I can do will make me holy on the same quality of holiness that God possesses in Himself.   I can't reach Him that way.   It's God's grace that makes me holy as He is holy.  It's not rooted in my efforts.  I am  a sin stained follower of Jesus and I always will be until I am dead or Jesus returns.   If my holiness were rooted in my efforts, all hope is lost.

 

The part of me that is born of God, the part that goes to heaven when I die, doesn't sin.  My flesh sins.  My flesh wars against the Spirit (Rom. 7: 14-25, Gal. 5)   The part of me that God has reborn, doesn't ever commit a single sin, but I have human, fleshly nature that I still live in and am at war with and has not been regenerated yet and it still wants to lay claim to me and I struggle with it all of the time, just like Paul struggled with it in his life.

 

Can a believer fall from grace and be cut off?  If not then please explain why Paul was warning the Gentiles to be careful so they would not be cut off by following the same example of disobedience by the Jews.  Likewise the writer of Hebrews warns to be sure that no one falls short of the grace of God.  

 

Heb 12:14-17  Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.  (15)  See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;  (16)  that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.  (17)  For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

 

Paul warns about failing the test:

 

2Co 2:8-9  Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.  (9)  For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things.

 

2Co 13:4-5  For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.  (5)  Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

 

Why does are we warned about unbelief? If we follow the same example of disobedience (unbelief) as the Israilites then we will no enter His rest.  

 

2Co 13:4-5  For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.  (5)  Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

 

Why would a loving god give a command that we cannot keep?  He wouldn't.  He always provides a way to fulfill what He has commanded.  God's grace is here so that we don't continue to sin, not so we can keep on sinning.  What you are claiming is the same as those who were accusing Paul of teaching, "Let us do evil that good may come"? In which he concludes "Their condemnation is just." Romans 3:8.  Or his rhetorically argument about shall we continue to sin so that grace may abound.

 

Rom 6:1-7  What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?  (2)  May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?  (3)  Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?  (4)  Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.  (5)  For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,  (6)  knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;  (7)  for he who has died is freed from sin.

 

Someone stated earlier that if a Christian was walking perfectly (no longer sinning) he would no longer need the grace of God (that is to say Christ).  This statement is declaring that one must continue to sin so that grace may abound.  What does it mean to be in the likeness of His resurrection.  It means we have left our sinfulness in the grave so that we are no longer contaminated by it just like Christ left the world's sins in the grave.  We die to sin when we are buried with Him in baptism, so that we to might walk in newness of life.

 

So you don't believe that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him?  Heb 11:6  And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.  Notice the location of this verse, right in the middle of Hebrews 11 the chapter about those who received approval from God for their actions.

 

Let's look at the scene in heaven on judgement day.  What answer would someone who believes the same as you give to God for sin still remaining in their lives?  They could only say that sin remained in there lives because God made them weak and unable to keep His commandments.  I don't no about you but I wouldn't want to be pointing my finger at God as my reason for failure.  Whereas the person who believes as I believe, they will praise God thanking Him for His magnificent promises that allowed them to escape the corruptions that are in the world by lust (2 Peter 4:1-11)  The first will be claiming it was hopeless for them to turn from all their wicked ways and follow Him like the people of Judah did and God will respond with who ever heard such an appalling thing.

 

Jer 18:11-13  "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."'  (12)  "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'  (13)  "Therefore thus says the LORD, 'Ask now among the nations, Who ever heard the like of this? The virgin of Israel Has done a most appalling thing.

 

The later would be claiming he was able to do all things through the strength which God supplied, and he never failed  because God always provide him the way out of every temptation.  The first says that even with the indwelling Holy Spirit they could not fully serve God and keep from sinning (he would be discounting the power of grace).  The second would be giving glory to God for His wonderful grace, both His Son and the Holy Spirit, that cleansed him of his former sins and lead him so that he would not fulfill the desires of the flesh.  What a contrast?  One believes in what God is able to do while the other makes excuses for their lack of faith in His promises.

 

You are still trying to claim I am stating that I believe I (me, myself, and I) can be holy and pure on my own.  I give credit where credit is due, and that is with God.  Do you believe any of the following? Each of these is stated in scripture.

 

We can do all things through Him who strengthens us.

If we ask without doubting we will receive our requests.

That God is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power (Holy Spirit) that works within us.

That He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world.

With God all things are possible.

We are not tempted beyond what we can bear and God always provides a way out.

God is able to keep us from stumbling.

God has given us everything for life and godliness and that through His magnificent promises we are able to partake of His divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

That if we practice the fruit of the Spirit that we will never stumble.

That those who have suffered in the flesh as He suffered have ceased from sin.

That Paul once was disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.  That is to say he no longer was these things after coming to Christ.  

If anyone walks in the day (Light), he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.  But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.

If you love Him you will keep His commandments.

God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

If we put on the full armor of God, we will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 

By taking up the shield of faith we will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 

We can prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom we appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life.

We can walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, pleasing Him in all respects, by bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; by being strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience.

 

If you do believe these things, why do you believe it is impossible for us to cease from sin as a Christian?  If God has promised us all these things does not God have the right to judge us for not keeping His commandments.  For we have no excuse for continuing to sin based on what He has promised, which first and for most is His Spirit through whom we won't obey the lusts of the flesh.

 

If you believe that your body of death will never be eradicated than you don't believe what Paul wrote in Romans 8.  He says that if the Spirit lives in you He will also give life to your mortal body through the indwelling Spirit.  This is done by being lead by the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the flesh.  Those who are lead by the Spirit are sons of God.  If you claim the Spirit is in you yet continue to sin there is a big problem.  The problem is your faith  You simply don't believe in what God can do in your life.

 

Rom 8:9-14  However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.  (10)  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.  (12)  So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--  (13)  for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.  (14)  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

 

Do you claim you are lead by the Spirit?  If so, why are you still sinning?  How are you not a slave to impurity and lawlessness (a slave of sin) if you are continuing to present the members of your body as slaves to lawlessness Romans 6:19?

 

Being led by the Spirit, in Galatians 5 is juxtaposed against living according to the law and using the law of God as an impediment against sinning.  Being led by the Spirit is the opposite of trying to be please God by one's own efforts.

 

When Paul wrote to the Galatians about being led by Spirit, he was not speaking to a congregation that was trying to live sinful lives.  He was writing to a group who had been deceived by a cult that they had to keep the law, they had to do good works in addition to faith in Christ in order to enter the Kingdom of God.   Jesus, wasn't enough to save them as far as they were concerned.   Paul was writing them because they were believing the same lies and were under the same deception that you are under.

 

Being led by the Spirit is the opposite of trying to be saved by works.  It doesn't mean that you will never ever commit a single sin.  It means that your life is surrendered to the leading of the Spirit in a general sense.  Paul never says if that we are commanded to never commit a single sin.   That is just your false, unChristian teaching.

 

Again, I am saying we can do all things through God who strengths us, while you want to claim that we cannot do all things through Him who strengthens us.  I think I will listen to Paul.  If what you claim is true, Paul must have been out of his mind to claim he could do all things through God.  Same with him claiming he and those with him once were disobedient.  He must have been talking about the split second between his continuous sins where he wasn't sinning.  Unfortunately, his claim immediately became a false testimony because he turned right around and committed another sin.  The bad thing is he actually made that statement twice about once being disobedient. What a confused person he must have been?  What nerve he had when he told the Corinthians that he and those with him were ready to punish all disobedience once there obedience was complete.  2Co 10:5-6  We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,  (6)  and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.  What punishment did they dish out on themselves for continuing to be disobedient as you claim they were.  Here again he makes a claim that must have only been for a split second.  He claims he and those with him were taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ (in other words not obedient to the flesh).  How about the times when writing to the churches when he claimed they once were walking with the sons of disobedience but no longer were?   See below.  

 

Col 3:6-10  For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,  (7)  and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.  (8)  But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.  (9)  Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,  (10)  and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--

 

Eph 2:1-3  And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,  (2)  in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.  (3)  Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

Eph 5:6-12  Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.  (7)  Therefore do not be partakers with them;  (8)  for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light  (9)  (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),  (10)  trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.  (11)  Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;  (12)  for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.

 

Col 1:19-23  For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,  (20)  and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.  (21)  And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,  (22)  yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--  (23)  if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

 

1Ti 1:12-14  I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,  (13)  even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;  (14)  and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

 

1Co 10:32-33  Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;  (33)  just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.

 

How do you claim Romans 7 is talking about his life as a Christian in light of all he has claimed about himself, those with him, and some members of the churches?

 

How do you take the words "Walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh" and turn it to mean you will not obey most of the flesh?  He was teaching them how to not be under the Law.  He states the same as I have been stating,

 

Gal 5:5-6  For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.  (6)  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.  

 

It is our faith working through love (guided by the Holy Spirit) that will keep us from being under the Law, which is exactly what Paul is saying in verses 16-18.  Those who are lead by the Spirit (their faith is in Him) will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.  Why?  Because they are no longer fighting against sin on their own, they are now relying on God to do what He said He would do, always provide a way out.  His Spirit is warring against our flesh so we don't do what the flesh wants to do because of weakness.  since we are not fulfilling the flesh by being lead by His Spirit we are not under the Law.  Not only are we not fulfilling the desires of the flesh through the Spirit, we are also producing the fruit of the Spirit against which there is no law.  Paul speaks of the same in Romans 8 right after he stated the question "What can save me from this body of death?"  His answer, only Christ.  But how does Christ save us from the body of death?  He set us free from the law of sin and death through the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.  The law of the Spirit comes from the indwelling of His Spirit.  He goes on further to say that Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law for those who walk according to the Spirit.  

 

How is being saved by grace through faith in what God is able to do in my life an unchristian teaching.  How in the world do you arrive at such a concept?  

 

How is it arrogance if an individual claims he never sins by relying on all that God has promised He would do for those who believe?

 

Because you are invoking promises that were never made.  Nowhere does God promise that you will never commit a single sin.

 

It is also arrogance because you trust in your own works and not in Christ and in doing so you present yourself as righteous as Christ by your own efforts.  It is a slap in the face to Jesus and it amounts to trampling His finished work on the cross under your feet.

 

Why do you continue to return to the argument about our own efforts?  I have not made a single claim that salvation is based on our efforts.

 

Everything you say is about trusting in your own efforts.  You have a works-based system of righteousness that places all of the responsibility for salvation on you, and not on Jesus.

 

Everything I say is about trusting God that He will bring to pass what He said He would.  There is no trust being put in my self.  How is being saved by grace through faith in what God is able to do in my life putting responsibility on my self?  That's right I have to have faith which saves me.  Your claim about my beliefs would be true if I put my faith in myself, but that is not the case and you need to stop claiming that is what I am saying.

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 

I thank you for your discussion on this topic and I hope you pray and study to see if what you have come to believe is the truth.  I don't want anyone to believe me on what I have written.  Everyone needs to study God's word in order to know the truth.  I have been studying this for years and have actually tried to disprove it because of what it means if it is true.  If it is true that we are to be perfect, pure, holy, and righteous as He is (that is to say no longer committing sin but producing the fruit of the Spirit which is the opposite of sin) then all those who continue to sin whether it is habitually or not will be condemned along with those who have not accepted Christ.  Like God, I wish that all mankind would would come to repentance and be saved

.If a person commits a single sin, they are condemned to hell?   There is no salvation in that event.  Jesus died for nothing if, in the end, you end up paying for your own sin.

 

Your problem is that you don't understand holiness.   We are made holy by God, not by own efforts.  We are commanded to live in holiness in order to reflect the holiness that is wrought by God in us through Christ.   There is nothing you can do to manufacture God's holiness in yourself.   We are never commanded to make ourselves holy.  

 

You are teaching a contemptible false gospel.  You are trusting in your own efforts and not in Christ and that places you outside of the true Christian faith.

 

Yes in the end if you are in sin because you have not truly repented there is condemnation. 

 

So if a person sins, but dies a minute later  before they are able to repent of that sin, they go to hell?

 

How do you know you repented of every sin you have ever committed since you have  been saved?  Do you really want to place your ultimate faith in the fact that you have repented of 100% of every sin?    How can you be certain you haven't forgotten something?

 

You tell me.  Was it a willful sin?  If so then according to Hebrews 10:26-31 they have nothing to look forward to but God's wrath.  If a person has turned form all there wicked ways by being lead by the Spirit then they have repented of all their sins.  

John says in Revelation that unless those in the churches repented and overcame what was wrong in their lives (their sins), their names would be stricken from the book of life.  God told them He saw all of their good works, but because sin still remained in their lives they would not be accepted.  We must notice that in the letter to Sardis God says their were some who had not soiled their garments and they will walk with Him in white for they are worthy.  This sure sounds a lot like if we don't obey God we will be lost, but if we do keep His Word then we will walk with Him in white for we will have been found worthy.

 

Actually you need to go back re-read what is said to the church at sardis. They were a dead church.  There is a difference between those who have an empty profession of faith, who were never saved, who continue to live in sin versus committing a single sin.  Nothing in that letter indicates that if you commit ONE sin that you are doomed to hell  The Bible never says that.   Again, you are a false teacher.

 

Notice the contrast.  There are those who have not completed their deeds (their works) and there are those who have not soiled their garments.  There is no in between stage.  Either you have overcome or you have not.

 

If nothing we do as Christians pertains to our salvation why are those who call on the Lord or who names the name of the Lord to do the following and why would God command them to do what can not be done according to what you believe.

 

 

I didn't say that works don't pertain to salvation.   I said that they have nothing to do with us staying saved.  They pertain to our salvation in that we demonstrate our salvation by our works. We don't depend on our works for salvation.

 

How do they pertain to your salvation without pertaining to your salvation?  You need to explain your statement.  You have been chastising me claiming I keep speaking about me doing works which I don't and now you are finally claiming what we do (I would say through the Spirit) pertains to our salvation.  Please make up your mind. 

 

Can a person who calls on the Lord keep these commandments?  If not, why not?  If they can yet don't, would God not have the right to judge them?  

 

 

You can physically keep the commandments, but you are still a redeemed sinner.  You still have a sin nature.  Your fleshly nature taints your observance of God's commandments.   You can keep them, but your observance will not make you holy.

 That is a bold claim considering that I claim we can only truly obey God with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, therefore our boasting would be in what the Lord has provide.  This is fulfilling exactly what the scripture says.

 

I got this answer once before.  I believe it was worded this way:  We can be perfect but we won't and don't keep His commandments.  Either we can or we can't.  If we can why do you fight so hard in claiming you won't.  

 

Where does scripture say our fleshly nature taints our observance of His commandments?

 

God made us holy in reference to our past sins, it is through keeping His commandments that we remain holy as He is Holy. Likewise in reference to righteousness and purity.  This is done through his precious and magnificent promises through which we have become partakers of His divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.  2 Peter 1:1-4.

 

Is claiming we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh by walking according to the Spirit not the same claim Paul made repeatedly?  

 

Wow.  So you are saying that believing I can be saved by grace through faith in the promises of God is a contemptible false doctrine.

No, I am saying that your doctrine of salvation by works and personal effort is a false doctrine.   You are trying to be saved by being holy enough to deserve salvation.  That is why what you teach is contemptible.

 

I will hold off on responding to this until you have explained how what we do pertains to our salvation while at the same time not pertaining to it.  And your explanation of why you believe we can keep His commandments but do nothing but argue for why you don't keep them.

The judgement will come on three groups of people.  Two of them will receive condemnation.  It is only the righteous who will be saved for they will be judged by the law of Christ while the other two will be judged by the Law to which they are enslaved.  For the law is not for the righteous but the ungodly and the sinner.  Committing one sin makes you a sinner therefore you will be judged by the law.  This is similar to the parable of the sower, only one group truly accepted the word.  The others fail prey to sin and therefore were lost.

 

1Pe 4:15-19  Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;  (16)  but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.  (17)  For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?  (18)  AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?  (19)  Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

 

1Ti 1:8-14  But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,  (9)  realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers  (10)  and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,  (11)  according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.  (12)  I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,  (13)  even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;  (14)  and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

 

Mat 13:3-8  And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;  (4)  and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.  (5)  "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.  (6)  "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.  (7)  "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.  (8)  "And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

 

Mat 13:18-23  "Hear then the parable of the sower.  (19)  "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.  (20)  "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;  (21)  yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.  (22)  "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.  (23)  "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

 

[Mr Nice]

Mr Nice,

 

What does 1 Corinthians 13:12 mean to you?

 

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

By it self it doesn't mean much, but when looked at in context it is speaking of love.  

 

1Co 13:9-11  For we know in part and we prophesy in part;  (10)  but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.  (11)  When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

 

When we did not know God our love was dim, minimal, and maybe even non-existent.  But when we have come to know God love has been perfected in us and we will know as we are known.  We know that we have been perfected in love when we keep His commandments and thus we know God. 1 John 2:3-6.  If His love is perfected in us then we have no fear because fear involves punishment, but there is no punishment for those who are not under the Law.

We know that we abide in Him and He in us because He has given us of His Spirit.  We know this because we are lead by His Spirit and produce the fruit of the Spirit instead of the deeds of the flesh.

 

1Jn 4:12-19  No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.  (13)  By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.  (14)  We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.  (15)  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.  (16)  We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.  (17)  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.  (18)  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.  (19)  We love, because He first loved us.

 

Likewise we know that we love the children of God (one another) and abide in Him when we love God and keep His commandments which are not burdensome.

 

1Jn 5:1-5  Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.  (2)  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.  (3)  For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.  (4)  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.  (5)  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[OneLight]

 

Mr Nice,

 

What does 1 Corinthians 13:12 mean to you?

 

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

By it self it doesn't mean much, but when looked at in context it is speaking of love.  

 

1Co 13:9-11  For we know in part and we prophesy in part;  (10)  but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.  (11)  When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

 

When we did not know God our love was dim, minimal, and maybe even non-existent.  But when we have come to know God love has been perfected in us and we will know as we are known.  We know that we have been perfected in love when we keep His commandments and thus we know God. 1 John 2:3-6.  If His love is perfected in us then we have no fear because fear involves punishment, but there is no punishment for those who are not under the Law.

We know that we abide in Him and He in us because He has given us of His Spirit.  We know this because we are lead by His Spirit and produce the fruit of the Spirit instead of the deeds of the flesh.

 

1Jn 4:12-19  No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.  (13)  By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.  (14)  We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.  (15)  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.  (16)  We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.  (17)  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.  (18)  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.  (19)  We love, because He first loved us.

 

Likewise we know that we love the children of God (one another) and abide in Him when we love God and keep His commandments which are not burdensome.

 

1Jn 5:1-5  Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.  (2)  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.  (3)  For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.  (4)  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.  (5)  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

 

 

Everything in that chapter is speaking of love, which is the door to our understanding in Him.  Paul was stating that his understanding is only partial while we remain in the flesh, but will have a full understanding when we are with Him.  Until then, nobody can be perfect since perfection never comes from a partial understanding.  The words in this chapter goes much deeper over time.  Christian perfection is a goal we alll seek, but we all will never have until we are with Christ.  To live otherwise produces a life of misery due to the many failures we will have trying to be perfect.  All we can do is allow Him to work in and through us, continuing to be changed into His likeness.

[Mr Nice]

Mr Nice Shiloh is not the only one here that is distraught over what you write!  A brief look into the light

of your writing:

 

The Son of God praying in the garden, before giving himself to the cross, asked the Father for

another way with an intensity that is rarely seen in the world that of bloody sweat ... yet Jesus gave all

this desire to The Fathers Will and no other way was possible for us to be saved! So when you put

self effort through works with this it is as filthy as a minstrel cloth  to us... and we pray for your soul

that you might see this! 

Love, Steven

I am confused because I have never stated that it is through anything within me.  I believe we are saved by grace through faith.  But I don't stop my faith at Christ's death on the cross.  That was only part of His saving grace.  The second part which no one wishes to truly acknowledge is the gift of the Spirit which was sent to help us in our time of need so that through the Spirit we produce the fruit of the Spirit and not the deeds of the flesh.  I look to God for the way out of my temptations and not my own even though we are told we are not tempted beyond what we can bear I still look to God so that I will not become arrogant thinking that I have done it.

 

How is it self effort through works if we are making the same claim Paul did that we can do all things through Him who strengthens us?  

How can we say we love, abide in, and know God if we are not keeping His commandments when the scriptures say keeping His commandments is how we know we love, abide in, and know God?

 

How does relying on God to do all He said He would fall under self effort through works?  

 

How can a person be sanctified by the Holy Spirit if they are still a slave to sin, for we are slaves to that which we obey, either of sin which leads to death, or to obedience which results in righteousness?

 

Do you believe the following?  Each of these is stated in scripture.

 

We can do all things through Him who strengthens us.

If we ask without doubting we will receive our requests.

That God is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power (Holy Spirit) that works within us.

That He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world.

With God all things are possible.

We are not tempted beyond what we can bear and God always provides a way out.

God is able to keep us from stumbling.

God has given us everything for life and godliness and that through His magnificent promises we are able to partake of His divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

That if we practice the fruit of the Spirit that we will never stumble.

That those who have suffered in the flesh as He suffered have ceased from sin.

That Paul once was disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.  That is to say he no longer was these things after coming to Christ.  

If anyone walks in the day (Light), he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.  But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.

If you love Him you will keep His commandments.

God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

If we put on the full armor of God, we will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 

By taking up the shield of faith we will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 

We can prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom we appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life.

We can walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, pleasing Him in all respects, by bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; by being strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience.

 

If you do believe these things, why do you believe it is impossible for us to cease from sin as a Christian through faith in God?  If God has promised us all these things does not God have the right to judge us for not keeping His commandments.  For we have no excuse for continuing to sin based on what He has promised, which first and for most is His Spirit through whom we won't obey the lusts of the flesh.

 

My final question is are those whom are reading what I have wrote distraught  because I am contradicting what they believe or are their hearts being tugged at because the question I have asked which they cannot answer? 

 

I hope you truly answer these questions unlike the others who only continue to make the same comment without any justification.  

 

I am not out to tear anyone down. I want them to look at all the promises God has made to us whether directly being stated as a promise, spoken in a prayer, or stated as Paul states things such as "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me".  In the end I believe those who diligently search this out will have a greater joy in their life.  Even if they don't believe what I am saying their current walk in Christ will be much stronger because they will better understand His promises and the power which He has granted to us.  For He who is in us is stronger than he who is in the world.

[Mr Nice]

 

 

Mr Nice,

 

What does 1 Corinthians 13:12 mean to you?

 

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

By it self it doesn't mean much, but when looked at in context it is speaking of love.  

 

1Co 13:9-11  For we know in part and we prophesy in part;  (10)  but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.  (11)  When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

 

When we did not know God our love was dim, minimal, and maybe even non-existent.  But when we have come to know God love has been perfected in us and we will know as we are known.  We know that we have been perfected in love when we keep His commandments and thus we know God. 1 John 2:3-6.  If His love is perfected in us then we have no fear because fear involves punishment, but there is no punishment for those who are not under the Law.

We know that we abide in Him and He in us because He has given us of His Spirit.  We know this because we are lead by His Spirit and produce the fruit of the Spirit instead of the deeds of the flesh.

 

1Jn 4:12-19  No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.  (13)  By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.  (14)  We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.  (15)  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.  (16)  We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.  (17)  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.  (18)  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.  (19)  We love, because He first loved us.

 

Likewise we know that we love the children of God (one another) and abide in Him when we love God and keep His commandments which are not burdensome.

 

1Jn 5:1-5  Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.  (2)  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.  (3)  For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.  (4)  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.  (5)  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

 

 

Everything in that chapter is speaking of love, which is the door to our understanding in Him.  Paul was stating that his understanding is only partial while we remain in the flesh, but will have a full understanding when we are with Him.  Until then, nobody can be perfect since perfection never comes from a partial understanding.  The words in this chapter goes much deeper over time.  Christian perfection is a goal we alll seek, but we all will never have until we are with Christ.  To live otherwise produces a life of misery due to the many failures we will have trying to be perfect.  All we can do is allow Him to work in and through us, continuing to be changed into His likeness.

 

How than do we know, abide in, and love Him if His love is not perfected in us?  We don't.  John contradicts your claim that we will only be as He is when He returns.  

 

1Jn 4:17-18  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.  (18)  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

If His love is not perfected in us then we will have no confidence on the day of judgement.  I will ask this question again, why would God command us to be what we cannot not be?  I will also ask, if we will only continue to live as the Israelites did, what value is the Holy Spirit to us?  In reality, if we continue to sin and can never be perfected in love then all His sacrifice really did was saved a bunch of animal from being sacrificed.  The prophecies of the coming of the Christ and what those who are His will do also contradicts what you are claiming.  For we are told He will write His laws upon our hearts, we will keep His commandments, He will be our God, and we will be His people.

[OneLight]

How than do we know, abide in, and love Him if His love is not perfected in us?  We don't.  John contradicts your claim that we will only be as He is when He returns.  

 

1Jn 4:17-18  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.  (18)  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

If His love is not perfected in us then we will have no confidence on the day of judgement.  I will ask this question again, why would God command us to be what we cannot not be?  I will also ask, if we will only continue to live as the Israelites did, what value is the Holy Spirit to us?  In reality, if we continue to sin and can never be perfected in love then all His sacrifice really did was saved a bunch of animal from being sacrificed.  The prophecies of the coming of the Christ and what those who are His will do also contradicts what you are claiming.  For we are told He will write His laws upon our hearts, we will keep His commandments, He will be our God, and we will be His people.

The Love of Christ that is perfected in us to make us perfect, as you provided in the verse from 1 John 4:17-18. It is to give us confidence in the day of judgement that we are forgiven for our sins and are covered by Christ. It is His love that is perfect, not us. We, while in this life, can never be perfect. There is only One who was ever perfect, and that is Christ. The mistake you are making is what others make, believing that we need to be perfect. If we could be perfect, then Christ died in vain.

I do not understand your question about living as the Israelis. What do you mean by this and where does this come from?

[almightyist]

Good job....Mr. Nice. You have done a wonderful job of presenting walking with the Holy Spirit. The old man is crucified on the cross with JESUS. The new man still needs to live in this world. He has to carry his cross daily. Crucify his flesh. Narrow is the gate and difficult. Man can't do it without JESUS. The difficult part is the enemy.

Matthew 7:13-27 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

The wrath of Almighty God is because of sin. JESUS was quite clear about sin. It is about your actions, behaviors, and attitudes towards sin. Love doesn't delight in wickedness and condemned is anybody that delights in wickedness. Anybody that tries to justify sin.....avoid. They reap what they sow.

Luke 23:39-43 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

This prisoner falls under the rests of the disobedient spirits before the Holy Spirit was given to us.

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient

He was with JESUS when JESUS descended. Not when he ascended. Nobody was with JESUS when he ascended evidenced when he told Mary not to touch him.

Edited January 9, 2015 by almightyist

[OneLight]

Good job....Mr. Nice. You have done a wonderful job of presenting walking with the Holy Spirit. The old man is crucified on the cross with JESUS. The new man still needs to live in this world. He has to carry his cross daily. Crucify his flesh. Narrow is the gate and difficult. Man can't do it without JESUS. The difficult part is the enemy.

Matthew 7:13-27 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

The wrath of Almighty God is because of sin. JESUS was quite clear about sin. It is about your actions, behaviors, and attitudes towards sin. Love doesn't delight in wickedness and condemned is anybody that delights in wickedness. Anybody that tries to justify sin.....avoid. They reap what they sow.

 

Are you telling us that you never sin?

[Willa]

I repeat:

 

Philippians 3:12 is referring to Paul's not already having attained perfection.  It would be pretty stupid for Paul to proclaim that he had not already arisen from the dead.  

 

1 John 1:8 clearly states that IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IT US..  NKJV

This certainly states that we are not yet perfect and that those who think they are are only fooling themselves.  

 

Can we overcome habitual sin?  By all means.  

Can we lead a victorious, abundant life?  Absolutely

Will we all be perfect like Jesus when we are in heaven?  Yes, because we will see Him as He is.  

Can we live in love and never fail?  Like I said, I would like to hear from your wife..  But that certainly is our goal.

Since salvation is completely a gift from God, there is nothing I can do to add to the work of Christ.  But the bride of Christ will be clothed in the righteous acts of the saints.  These acts are the product of our salvation.  They don't produce salvation, salvation produces them.  No one is saved by good works or there would be a lot of boasting in heaven, as stated in. Eph. 2.  

 

Since this is only an opinion forum and few are allowed to teach, I will refrain from sermons or tomes.  I have stated my opinion as confirmed by scripture.  Nor will I debate this issue.

 

Perhaps someone else would like to debate this in the soapbox debate or one of our teaching staff would teach on this issue in the study group.  

 

Having said that, I am very grateful to God for giving some of you victory over sin in your lives by whatever means, and I would never want to take that away from you.

He did a similar work in me by changing me to look more like Jesus by the washing of the Word and the finished work on the cross.  I bear this treasure, Jesus, in this imperfect cracked pot of an earthen vessel.

 

Meanwhile we agree to disagree, and we continue to love each other in spite of conflicting interpretations of God's Word.  It is the Spirit of Christ in each of us that unifies us and gives us true common ground. I also respect anyone who bases their doctrine on God's Word.

 

Blessings to you all,

Willa

 

I am sorry you do not believe you can possess your own vessel in sanctification and honor, that you can cleanse yourself (through His Spirit) of all wickedness so that you can be a vessel of honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

 

Ooops! Now you have put words in my mouth that I never said. In fact I believe the opposite. Perhaps I mislead you. I had just told you that God had accomplished a similar work of transformation in me by the completed work of the cross (His imputed righteousness) and the washing of the Word. Eph. 5:26 that He might santify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the Word. NKJV" I had agreed that we can overcome sin. I have emphasized the need to walk in the Spirit. By hearing God's voice and following Him all of the rest is being accomplished.

Since 1John 5:13 states that the book is written to believers, I trust the people being addressed in 1John 1:8 are also believers.

We are told to not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds, and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts. Rom. 12:2, 13:14.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. 1 Cor. 2:18 NKJV

Everyone who disagrees with the doctrine of attaining perfection in this life is not automaticly living in habitual sin; this is a false assumtion of some. Our doctrine has brought us also to a state of blamelessness before God when neither our consciences nor our hearts condemn us. But we are aware that God can see imperfections that are yet to be revealed and will be dealt with when they are. Most people here are aware of some of the bad attitudes I struggle with. Often I note them by saying I am preaching to myself again. Each time they pop up I confess them and ask God to deal with them.

By making false statements and assumptions about my beliefs you are being less than loving. Please address beliefs in an objective manner.