Augustine17 Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2015 You don't become perfect on your own. You are taught obedience while being led by the Holy Spirit. I'm not even sure the word perfect is the appropriate translation as much as 'complete', which is that you lack nothing in spiritual maturity. knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. - James 1:3-4 Suffering produces perseverance, perseverance character, and character hope. For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, And for My praise I restrain it for you, In order not to cut you off. 10"Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. - Isaiah 48:9-10 I am not without sin, neither is wing or you. Or anyone else. But if our sins are pardoned we should change. Paul acknowledged what he did in the past after being reborn, and likewise everyone should as well, and not act like they never sinned which might lead to self-righteousness. The sin was pardoned, it is not to hold the believer to account, however it is not like it was never committed, yet it should not be dwelt on all day, it is better to seek good, rather than compromise and accept a sinful life. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.… - 1 Timothy 1:15-16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2015 You don't become perfect on your own. You are taught obedience while being led by the Holy Spirit. I'm not even sure the word perfect is the appropriate translation as much as 'complete', which is that you lack nothing in spiritual maturity. knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. - James 1:3-4 Suffering produces perseverance, perseverance character, and character hope. For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, And for My praise I restrain it for you, In order not to cut you off. 10"Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. - Isaiah 48:9-10 I am not without sin, neither is wing or you. Or anyone else. But if our sins are pardoned we should change. Paul acknowledged what he did in the past after being reborn, and likewise everyone should as well, and not act like they never sinned which might lead to self-righteousness. The sin was pardoned, it is not to hold the believer to account, however it is not like it was never committed, yet it should not be dwelt on all day, it is better to seek good, rather than compromise and accept a sinful life. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.… - 1 Timothy 1:15-16 I agree with you august, it is a process that we all go through, maturing as we go. And yes, we should be changing and working toward being Christ-like, and not living in sin. By that I mean, not continuing to do something we know that is a sin, as the Holy Spirit convicts us. If we disregard the Holy Spirit's leading, then we would eventually become to deaf to the truth, and given over to wickedness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustine17 Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2015 Exactly. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, - Hebrews 10:26 Thus, one who is in the Truth is not a sinner, since they are freed by Christ from sin. The person who after being freed sins intentionally however, does not receive sacrifice for sin. The believers are transformed into being more Christ-like like you typed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Actually that passage in Hebrews is, in context, talking about apostasy. The writer in Hebrews is addressing Jews who are sitting on the fence about whether or not place faith in Christ fully or return to the old Mosaic system. He is saying that if they continue in their sin, ie. continue in the old system after having received the knowledge of the truth they have rejected the only sacrifice for sins that is available to them. There is nothing left. It does not mean that if you sin one time after you get saved, you lose your salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustine17 Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2015 When you sin you are under the law but you can repent, people make mistakes and God forgives, and people fall into temptation and given the condition God forgives, but when you do it on purpose without even trying to resist at all CONSISTENTLY after being saved there is judgement waiting. I think you can even repent after that but there was some point in being filled with the Holy Spirit where you can actually feel the coming of the age. After that if one falls away they are dead. I don't think fall away means sin once but to go to a sinful life style. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. To my knowledge David and Solomon fell away but repented. For a believer there is a certain point when if they are filled enough with the Holy Spirit and then turn to the ways of a sinner they can no longer repent. For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. - 1 Kings 11:4 I am not completely sure but an example of someone who fell away forever might be Saul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Nice Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/28/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 I John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. Three things. First read verse 3 to understand to whom he is writing. His main focus is toward those who do not have fellowship with him, those with him, God, or the Son. He is writing to people who have not accepted the fact that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". They have refused to acknowledge this fact and so John is calling them liars and saying the truth is not in them. Second, it is a reminder to Christians that if they turn to darkness they will no longer have fellowship with the Father. What everyone fails to remember is that in order for a person to accept Christ they must confess and repent of their sins. Therefore, a Christian is one who has not said he has no sin or has not sinned. Third, if you don't believe the first two we will go to 1 John 2:3-6 where John declares that those who claim to know God but do not keep His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them. This completely contradicts the belief that Christians continue to sin as so many claim when they point to chapter 1. One cannot commit sin and know God at the same time. 1Jn 2:3-6 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. (4) The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (5) but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: (6) the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. There are many more scriptures I can continue to point out but this should be sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Nice Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/28/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 I don't need to read Joel to understand that the angel of the abyss was an angel of God. Revelation plainly states it. What is Satan? An angel. What is the abyss and where is it located? Who is the destroyer? Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Righteousness is what? Given, not earned. All are justified freely by what? His grace, not by their works. You post this passage, but fail to grasp what it says. I Peter 5:(9) But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. (10) After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. Who perfects? He does, not you. Who confirms, strengthens and establishes you? He does, not you. What would a perfect person need confirmation, strengthening, or establishing for? Again, Satan does not come to torment those who are already his. If he did then they would turn away from him realizing the cost of having him as their father. What were the angels who were blowing the trumpets doing? They were bringing about the wrath of God on the wicked and that is what is happening by the angel opening the abyss. I fully grasp the passage in 1 Peter. You fail to apply obedient faith to the mix. Notice how he starts off in verse 9. He says resist him (Satan), FIRM in your faith. How do you stand firm if you do nothing you’re your faith? Paul was called to bring about the obedience of faith to the Gentiles, not just faith. Rom 1:5-7 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, (6) among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; (7) to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 16:25-27 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, (26) but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; (27) to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen. Yes we are justified freely by His grace. He freely gave His Son for the forgiveness of our past sins and His Spirit so that we can walk as Christ walked. Those who claim they abide in Him are to walk as He walked. 1Jn 2:4-6 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (5) but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: (6) the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. We do this through faith in His Spirit and the promises of God. So yes, we are saved by grace, through faith, not by our works but by that which God does in us through His Spirit. However, we are required to have obedient faith. If we do not have obedient faith then our faith is worthless. He will only perfect us if we let Him. Righteousness is what those who have believed and obeyed receive from God. I am sure you are going to point to the passages about Abraham where it says his faith was credited to him as righteousness so I will point you to where we are told that scripture was actually fulfilled. It was not fulfilled, credited, until he offered his son as a sacrifice. That is to say it was not credited until he obeyed God. Jas 2:20-24 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? (22) You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; (23) and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. (24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. His obedience was to what God commanded. Notice the verse also says he was called a friend of God. Interestingly, Jesus made a similar comment about who His friends are. Joh 15:12-14 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. (13) "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. (14) "You are My friends if you do what I command you. What allows God to perfect us? That would be our faith that He will bring to pass that which He has purposed which is sanctification by the Spirit who guides us so that we will be slaves of obedience which results in righteousness with the outcome eternal life. The works we are doing are His works not our own. He through our faith gives us the strength to complete them. How about start believing in His promises that He will strengthen you so that you will no longer stumble instead of declaring He is not able to by saying we all continue to sin? Who is more powerful, God or Satan? That is an easy question. It is God. You only stumble because you do not believe. If you doubt this then you don’t know the definition of disobedience according to scripture. According to scripture, disobedience and unbelief are one in the same. Heb 3:18-19 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? (19) So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. Paul pointed out the same multiple times, specifically about himself in 1 Timothy. 1Ti 1:12-14 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, (13) even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; (14) and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. I believe God is able to keep me from stumbling (sinning), do you believe He is able to keep you from stumbling? Jud 1:24-25 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, (25) to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. I also believe He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able and that He will always provide a way out so that we can endure (not fail). Do you believe this is true? If you don’t there lies your problem, you do not have complete faith in God. 1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Nice Posted January 31, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/28/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Me Nice purports one may take the darkness which passes away and make it into light.... Not sure what you are trying to state. Please provide more information so we may understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 1, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) Mr Nice, I think your views on the interpretation of Revelation 9 and the trumpets/the abyss etc, need to be discussed in the prophecy section, I am pretty sure one similar is already running, I can understand how you are relating it to this subject, but there is a discrepancy in your views which if taken up would cause a tangent not in favor of this thread. By discrepancy, I mean that Wingnut has an interpretation which is supported by Revelation, while your view, although true in a sense, is the opposite of what the texts imply. It does not discredit what you have put forward on this topic. Edited February 1, 2015 by Kan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Nice Posted February 1, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/28/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 You don't become perfect on your own. You are taught obedience while being led by the Holy Spirit. I'm not even sure the word perfect is the appropriate translation as much as 'complete', which is that you lack nothing in spiritual maturity. knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. - James 1:3-4 Suffering produces perseverance, perseverance character, and character hope. For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, And for My praise I restrain it for you, In order not to cut you off. 10"Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. - Isaiah 48:9-10 I am not without sin, neither is wing or you. Or anyone else. But if our sins are pardoned we should change. Paul acknowledged what he did in the past after being reborn, and likewise everyone should as well, and not act like they never sinned which might lead to self-righteousness. The sin was pardoned, it is not to hold the believer to account, however it is not like it was never committed, yet it should not be dwelt on all day, it is better to seek good, rather than compromise and accept a sinful life. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.… - 1 Timothy 1:15-16 I agree with you august, it is a process that we all go through, maturing as we go. And yes, we should be changing and working toward being Christ-like, and not living in sin. By that I mean, not continuing to do something we know that is a sin, as the Holy Spirit convicts us. If we disregard the Holy Spirit's leading, then we would eventually become to deaf to the truth, and given over to wickedness. I also agree. God will bring it to pass if we believe He will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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