Christian perfection

[Mr Nice]

The passage in Hebrews is not speaking of Jews sitting on the fence that never accepted Christ.  Lets look at that passage again, starting in verse 26.

 

26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses.

29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

Notice that the person spoken of here has been sanctified.  A Jew sitting on the fence has not been sanctified.  Let's continue.

 

30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.  And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32  But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great flight of afflictions.

 

Again, it is obvious from the things being said in verse 32 that this is speak of a Christian, not someone on the fence.  When the scripture says in Hebrews 10:26 that if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, it is speaking to Christians, and it is telling them that those sins we commit on purpose, or that are pre-meditated, are not automatically under the initial blood covering.  If we die without confessing them, we will wind up in hell.  Your past confession of faith will do you no good.  Those who promote OSAS claim this is speaking of people that only heard the message but never accepted Christ, but that is clearly not true.  This is another example of where if you do not believe in OSAS, you will say this scripture proves it is not true, and those who do believe in OSAS will find a way to change the obvious meaning to something that is not true.  Of course, those who disagree with what I just said will simply say I am misusing or misapplying scripture, or taking it out of context.  That is how this game works.  We both claim the other person doesn't understand how to properly interpret scripture, and the disagreement goes in circles.

 

As to the question in the OP concerning sanctification, this is yet another controversy the church doesn't agree on.  Wesley taught that sanctification is a second definite work of grace, and you can live without sin.  He didn't say we could go without making an occasional mistake, but he did teach God gives us the ability to live above willful sin.  On the other hand, others believe that sanctification is an on going thing that takes place in the heart of a Christian, and we continue to sin all of our lives.  They teach that God gradually cleans us up a little at a time and over time we sin less.  I personally believe it is possible to live our lives without committing any intentional trespasses against God, but it is rare that anyone does that.  Just common sense would tell me that if I am faced with a choice to do something I know to be wrong, I have the ability to say no.  If that is not the case, then the devil is really making me do it.  In reality, I have to take responsibility for my own actions.  If we do commit any sins that are willful, the remedy, according to 1 John is confession of those sins, and God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. 

 

What I have stated Mr. Nice, is by no means the end of the matter.  It is my opinion based on my personal studies and my knowledge of what Wesley taught.  I agree with some of his teachings and disagree with others.  It is only a matter of time before I am "corrected" for my mishandling of scripture by someone with a different point of view.  Nevertheless, I stand by what I said as being correct, as they doubtless will do as well in giving you their interpretation.  That is why we are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.  We will never fully agree on doctrine.  Sadly, that is just the way it is.  I wish the Apostle Paul could come back and tell us exactly what he meant, but that is not possible, so we are faced with trying to figure it out for ourselves, and trusting that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. 

 

I fully agree with you in your interpretation of the passage.  I agree we may make occasional errors but it will only be those which we do not know to be sin.

 

It would be nice if Paul would come and clarify what he says, because as Peter says some of the things he wrote are hard to understand.  He also speaks of the untaught and unstable who will distort the scriptures to their own destruction.  Most will neglect verse 14 where we are told to be diligent  to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless.  If we are willfully sinning then we are neither of these.

 

2Pe 3:14-16  Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,  (15)  and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,  (16)  as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

[enoob57]

 

Me Nice purports one may take the darkness which passes away and make it into light....

 

Not sure what you are trying to state.  Please provide more information so we may understand.

 

2 Peter 3:10-11

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which

the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt

with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be

burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what

manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

KJV

You are claiming a works based salvation in your posts... now your works that you are claiming to

save you are going to be burnt up and we see those who were relying on those works here

Matt 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy

name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many

wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:

depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

KJV

It is clear that God is teaching us His disdain for sin and even the garment next to the sin

Jude 23-24

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the

garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from

falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with

exceeding joy,

KJV

Now in summing up this linear thought what manner of man are we to be understanding the value

God holds for this first creation... none except for fulfilling His Word in eschatology...

Yet you instruct that we may take from this first creation and maintain a salvation with it!

When in the council of the half brother of Jesus says it is God who will keep you from falling...

A works based premise for salvation is blasphemous to say the least! Love, Steven

[Augustine17]

Who is claiming a works based salvation! He simply believes that Christ can sanctify the heart. Now read all of this text I posted on a similar topic. Ok. Before Christ comes to save an unbeliever, they are sinners worthy of death and CANNOT make themselves righteous. Not by works, nor can they turn themselves into righteous people or else there would be no reason to be 'saved' by someone other than the individual. For example a drunkard. They get drunk every day and worship in the temple with their tongue and pray for forgiveness constantly because they are oppressed by sin. This drunkard cannot yet please God, but because he has acknowledged his sin and hated it there is a means for mercy. The drunkard might try to fight his sin with his own will power when it will fail. In this world certain people cycle in and out of rehab and still stay as drunkards. So what now? The drunkard is stuck and needs someone to save him from himself. In his mind he might hate his way and want to do good, but his heart is defiled. 

 

34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. - John 8:34

 

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. - John 12:40 This refers to people who are handed over to sin.

 

17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." - Genesis 2:17

The death here is spiritual. Remember. Jesus came so that 'those who are blind may see.' And that 'those who see may become blind'. What did he say to certain Pharisees?

 

Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains. - John 9:41

 

The one who is spiritually dead chases after the natural. The person has eyes that are spiritually blind and a heart that does not know God. Because it is disobedient it does not know the Father, nor is the Father in him. But the man who is spiritual and filled with the Holy Spirit chases after the Kingdom and His Righteousness, even that which he has not seen, and he is blind because he does not see it but moves by faith. He does not chase after money so he could prosper here, but the Kingdom which cannot be taken away. He is blind and yet sees. The natural man chases what is here but not the Kingdom which is greater. Thus he is more blind than he who does not follow what is natural. Who hopes for what they have? Faith is to hope for that which is not seen. Furthermore, The law of God is to love God Almighty with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Also it is to love your neighbor with Godly love. These must submit. The heart must be pure, the body must be pure, the soul must be pure, and the mind must be pure, and the Holy Spirit which is given submits to God, and the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe in Him and if they do believe in Him that is accounted as righteous. Anyone who believes in God must believe that those who come to him and seek him are rewarded. That faith is accounted as righteousness.

 

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. - 1 John 4:8 - This supports the previous paragraph. 

 

As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father - 1 John 2:24

What abides in you lives in you. And if The Word lives in you then you will not die, but you live eternally. 

 

'Where is your victory? O death?' and 'He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.' are worthy sayings (internet out so couldn't get the exact verses of these the time I typed this.)

 

So for a murderer to believe Jesus exists and continue with a murderous heart, what is there for him other than Hell? If a homosexual who was made that way because he has fallen in sin continues with a homosexual heart and believe in Jesus, what is there for him other than Hell? But if he is circumcised in his heart, then he will submit to God, and it will be that neither of those things rule him. In fact the murderer may become exceedingly high in mercy, and the homosexual married to someone of the opposite sex and have many children. The Son will set free those who believe in Him. But is it a do or die thing where, if they do not believe they will never believe? No, it isn't. There were men in the bible who expressed, 'Lord, we believe! Help our unbelief.' The unbelief was in the heart and belief was in the mind for them. What they asked is that their unbelief would be taken away. Christ is the redeemer, and what is the redeemer? What is redemption? Redemption is this: to free from sin death or evil.

 

Christ came to save sinners from death. If he saved them from death, it means he saved them from the source of death, or else they would find themselves again to be dead by the growth of the seed in them. The source of death is sin. The fruit of the Holy Spirit leads to eternal life. He saves them from sin, making them sanctified, but not only as a declaration, he actually does it with them spiritually. I will use myself for example. I used to have disgusting lustful thoughts and though my mind new it was wrong I was enticed and found myself in a cycle similar to the drunkard which led to sin. I could not help myself well, though on an extremely rare occasion I could resist it took quite a lot of energy and made me tired, and I found that I could not resist altogether.

 

I went to church feeling horrible and disgusting and a reproach of God, and at one point I wanted to die because to God I was useless, and I thought I could never do what was good, deciding that I would rot and die and be forgotten because of my iniquity. However, I yet was urged to seek after the Light which would make the pile of dirt I was into something better. The Light that was not a fake culture or a passing trend or false religion or fake humility, but that was genuine love which I desired. Then, when I was saved, all of such thoughts I despised and hated from my heart. God had given me a new heart so that I could live forever. This does not mean that I am never going to sin in my life here, only God knows if that is true from now until I sleep. When I realize I sin there is tremendous guilt and then when I confess and ask for forgiveness God is there to forgive it. God is good! So he takes the heart which was defiled by sin and yet again it is sanctified. There is the forgiveness of sin, and unlike David the patriarch, because of the blood of Christ, after such a process there is no need for lost blood.

 

David lost his son born from adultery after the sin he committed, he also caused many in Israel to die when he sinned by counting the armies of Israel against God's command, as if the Israel that belonged to God was his, and why? He repented on both of those occasions. The law requires the sacrifice of blood. But the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ has become the eternal offering of blood for forgiveness of sin to those who believe. So for all who do not tread on his blood by enslaving themselves to sin constantly and purposely there is forgiveness of sin once they repent of their way.

 

So in all of this it was not possible without the mercy of The One and Only Almighty God, and the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ has freed those who believe in Him. Therefore it is not by one's own righteousness they are saved, but by faith they are accounted righteous in the sense I stated before. When faith is made perfect it produces fruit. Faith without works is not complete, and work without faith is not complete. It was after Abraham offered Isaac that his faith was made perfect. By being led by the Spirit the fruit of eternal life is made. Of course the man who received a heart from God does His will, but that does not mean that he is a sinner - in fact that is impossible, though he might stumble once in a while he isn't consistent in sin. This righteousness was rooted in faith, the man of faith submitted to God's righteousness, and that faith was credited to him as righteousness. 'My Righteous One will live by faith.' There that should explain stuff I think.

[Mr Nice]

 

 

Me Nice purports one may take the darkness which passes away and make it into light....

 

Not sure what you are trying to state.  Please provide more information so we may understand.

 

2 Peter 3:10-11

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which

the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt

with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be

burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what

manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

KJV

You are claiming a works based salvation in your posts... now your works that you are claiming to

save you are going to be burnt up and we see those who were relying on those works here

Matt 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy

name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many

wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:

depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

KJV

It is clear that God is teaching us His disdain for sin and even the garment next to the sin

Jude 23-24

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the

garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from

falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with

exceeding joy,

KJV

Now in summing up this linear thought what manner of man are we to be understanding the value

God holds for this first creation... none except for fulfilling His Word in eschatology...

Yet you instruct that we may take from this first creation and maintain a salvation with it!

When in the council of the half brother of Jesus says it is God who will keep you from falling...

A works based premise for salvation is blasphemous to say the least! Love, Steven

 

 

If the works we do through the Holy Spirit will be burned up, why is Peter asking what manner of persons aught they to be in all holy conduct and godliness?  The works he is speaking of are the works of the wicked just like the works of the wicked were destroyed by the flood which is addressed just a few verses prior.  After he asks them this question he tells them to be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless.  That is to say be diligent in your faith keeping His commandments because that is the only way they will be found spotless and blameless.  This sure makes how the live and what they are doing rather important.

 

2Pe 3:14  Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

 

Yes God does have a total disdain for sin which is why Christ died for the forgiveness of our past and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us from the sin He disdains.  This is why He says those He does not know are those who are workers of iniquity, those who are sinning, not keeping His commandments.  This is in direct correlation to verse 21 where He says only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven.  His will is to believe in Christ and keep His commandments.  This is also why He says the one who hears His words and ACTS on them may be compared to a wise man, for a wise man listens to and follows the wisdom of God.

 

Mat 7:24  "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

 

Whereas the foolish man does not ACT on His words.

 

Mat 7:26  "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

 

I teach we are to act on His words, doing His will and you say I am teaching blasphemy.  Really!

 

Why are you people so confused?  I have said nothing but that it is God who will keep us from falling and this He does through His Spirit which we have received by faith.  The works I speak of are the works God prepared for us to do yet you continue to claim I am talking about doing my own works.  The problem is you don't believe that through His Spirit we can walk as Christ walked, following the example Christ left for us to follow.  You believe that it is impossible for God to do this when you declare we will all continue to sin.  

 

Answer these questions and we will know who is being blasphemous.  If you don't believe these things then you don't believe what the scripture says.

 

Do you believe God is able to keep you from stumbling?

Do you believe God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able and that He will always provide a way out?

Do you believe that if you are led by the Spirit that you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh?

Do you believe all things are possible with God?

Do you believe that those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin and live the rest of their days for the will of God?

 

If you believe He is able to keep you from stumbling why do you teach we will all continue to sin?  Your teaching contradicts what you believe if you believe He can keep you from stumbling.

 

[enoob57]

 

 

 

Me Nice purports one may take the darkness which passes away and make it into light....

 

Not sure what you are trying to state.  Please provide more information so we may understand.

 

2 Peter 3:10-11

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which

the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt

with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be

burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what

manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

KJV

You are claiming a works based salvation in your posts... now your works that you are claiming to

save you are going to be burnt up and we see those who were relying on those works here

Matt 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy

name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many

wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:

depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

KJV

It is clear that God is teaching us His disdain for sin and even the garment next to the sin

Jude 23-24

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the

garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from

falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with

exceeding joy,

KJV

Now in summing up this linear thought what manner of man are we to be understanding the value

God holds for this first creation... none except for fulfilling His Word in eschatology...

Yet you instruct that we may take from this first creation and maintain a salvation with it!

When in the council of the half brother of Jesus says it is God who will keep you from falling...

A works based premise for salvation is blasphemous to say the least! Love, Steven

 

 

If the works we do through the Holy Spirit will be burned up, why is Peter asking what manner of persons aught they to be in all holy conduct and godliness?  The works he is speaking of are the works of the wicked just like the works of the wicked were destroyed by the flood which is addressed just a few verses prior.  After he asks them this question he tells them to be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless.  That is to say be diligent in your faith keeping His commandments because that is the only way they will be found spotless and blameless.  This sure makes how the live and what they are doing rather important.

 

2Pe 3:14  Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

 

Yes God does have a total disdain for sin which is why Christ died for the forgiveness of our past and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us from the sin He disdains.  This is why He says those He does not know are those who are workers of iniquity, those who are sinning, not keeping His commandments.  This is in direct correlation to verse 21 where He says only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven.  His will is to believe in Christ and keep His commandments.  This is also why He says the one who hears His words and ACTS on them may be compared to a wise man, for a wise man listens to and follows the wisdom of God.

 

Mat 7:24  "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

 

Whereas the foolish man does not ACT on His words.

 

Mat 7:26  "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

 

I teach we are to act on His words, doing His will and you say I am teaching blasphemy.  Really!

 

Why are you people so confused?  I have said nothing but that it is God who will keep us from falling and this He does through His Spirit which we have received by faith.  The works I speak of are the works God prepared for us to do yet you continue to claim I am talking about doing my own works.  The problem is you don't believe that through His Spirit we can walk as Christ walked, following the example Christ left for us to follow.  You believe that it is impossible for God to do this when you declare we will all continue to sin.  

 

Answer these questions and we will know who is being blasphemous.  If you don't believe these things then you don't believe what the scripture says.

 

Do you believe God is able to keep you from stumbling?

Do you believe God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able and that He will always provide a way out?

Do you believe that if you are led by the Spirit that you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh?

Do you believe all things are possible with God?

Do you believe that those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin and live the rest of their days for the will of God?

 

If you believe He is able to keep you from stumbling why do you teach we will all continue to sin?  Your teaching contradicts what you believe if you believe He can keep you from stumbling.

 

there is no dialogue here as you have ignored my post and reinstated you salvation by works doctrine...

The complete refute by God Word-

Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

KJV

I have approached you on other occasions about the error of your doctrine

now your blood is no longer on my hands... you consist of your own error

willfully! Love, Steven

 

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 

 

Me Nice purports one may take the darkness which passes away and make it into light....

 

Not sure what you are trying to state.  Please provide more information so we may understand.

 

2 Peter 3:10-11

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which

the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt

with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be

burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what

manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

KJV

You are claiming a works based salvation in your posts... now your works that you are claiming to

save you are going to be burnt up and we see those who were relying on those works here

Matt 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy

name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many

wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:

depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

KJV

It is clear that God is teaching us His disdain for sin and even the garment next to the sin

Jude 23-24

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the

garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from

falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with

exceeding joy,

KJV

Now in summing up this linear thought what manner of man are we to be understanding the value

God holds for this first creation... none except for fulfilling His Word in eschatology...

Yet you instruct that we may take from this first creation and maintain a salvation with it!

When in the council of the half brother of Jesus says it is God who will keep you from falling...

A works based premise for salvation is blasphemous to say the least! Love, Steven

 

 

If the works we do through the Holy Spirit will be burned up, why is Peter asking what manner of persons aught they to be in all holy conduct and godliness?  The works he is speaking of are the works of the wicked just like the works of the wicked were destroyed by the flood which is addressed just a few verses prior.  After he asks them this question he tells them to be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless.  That is to say be diligent in your faith keeping His commandments because that is the only way they will be found spotless and blameless.  This sure makes how the live and what they are doing rather important.

 

2Pe 3:14  Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

 

Yes God does have a total disdain for sin which is why Christ died for the forgiveness of our past and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us from the sin He disdains.  This is why He says those He does not know are those who are workers of iniquity, those who are sinning, not keeping His commandments.  This is in direct correlation to verse 21 where He says only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven.  His will is to believe in Christ and keep His commandments.  This is also why He says the one who hears His words and ACTS on them may be compared to a wise man, for a wise man listens to and follows the wisdom of God.

 

Mat 7:24  "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

 

Whereas the foolish man does not ACT on His words.

 

Mat 7:26  "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

 

I teach we are to act on His words, doing His will and you say I am teaching blasphemy.  Really!

 

Why are you people so confused?  I have said nothing but that it is God who will keep us from falling and this He does through His Spirit which we have received by faith.  The works I speak of are the works God prepared for us to do yet you continue to claim I am talking about doing my own works.  The problem is you don't believe that through His Spirit we can walk as Christ walked, following the example Christ left for us to follow.  You believe that it is impossible for God to do this when you declare we will all continue to sin.  

 

Answer these questions and we will know who is being blasphemous.  If you don't believe these things then you don't believe what the scripture says.

 

Do you believe God is able to keep you from stumbling?

Do you believe God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able and that He will always provide a way out?

Do you believe that if you are led by the Spirit that you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh?

Do you believe all things are possible with God?

Do you believe that those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin and live the rest of their days for the will of God?

 

If you believe He is able to keep you from stumbling why do you teach we will all continue to sin?  Your teaching contradicts what you believe if you believe He can keep you from stumbling.

 

there is no dialogue here as you have ignored my post and reinstated you salvation by works doctrine...

The complete refute by God Word-

Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

KJV

I have approached you on other occasions about the error of your doctrine

now your blood is no longer on my hands... you consist of your own error

willfully! Love, Steven

 

 

 

How is teaching we are saved by grace through faith in that God will do as he has purposed for us?  God's purpose for us is that we would be sanctified by His Spirit without which no one will see the Lord.  How is doing the works God prepared for us to do through His Spirit salvation by my works? 

 

You continue to make claims, yet refuse to answer my questions.  Why will you not answer the questions I asked?  Are you afraid to answer them?  If you aren't afraid, please answer them.

[Augustine17]

Look enoob57, bureto, mr. nice and I have posted not any salvation by works. We attached verses and such to support the true Gospel. Salvation by works would be believing that a man can be evil in heart and go to heaven for his deeds. It is clearly stated that Christ sets a man free and your Titus 3:5 shows that the believer is renewed by the washing of regeneration. What is regenerated? A man who is spiritually dead. Why would someone receive the Holy Spirit? So they become sinners? NO. So that they are led by it as children of God. And what is regenerated was obviously dead, and what is dead is the spirit of a sinner. But if that person is made alive then what happened to the sinner? Does he go sin all day? NO. He would end up in hell. He is lead by the Spirit of God, and believing in it he enters the Kingdom of Heaven, and it is through this Spirit that fruit is made. Jesus himself says he who does the will of the father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The fact that it is by grace is that originally a man cannot enter it without first being saved and THAT is grace. Saving a man who should be dead because they have sinned. As if anyone could go to heaven without the grace of Jesus and mercy of God. That is not possible. THAT is grace. Not, 'I believe he exists but do not do what he has said'. Demons do that. The devil even does that. So how in any way is what Mr. Nice sent to you a false doctrine? Who is condemned to hell? The truth is right there with proof and you do not believe it for who knows why? Titus 3:5 is right there and you posted it yourself which proves a man is purified by Christ and given the Holy Spirit. Not to mention Jesus said to pray that you are kept from temptation, and what does that stem from? Evil. We are human thus we are tempted. Temptation leads to sin, and to pray you are kept from it ultimately means you pray God keeps you from stumbling like Mr. Nice believes. Because he believes the Word of God you call him false, but he is not. You have accused him falsely and that is not right.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Augustine17

[Augustine17]

Well if its blasphemy its blasphemy and you can prove its blasphemy, what we have stated cannot be contradicted, the only resistance was some quoted scripture which I even explained thoroughly. The Truth can't be resisted so personal attack becomes a defense mechanism for anyone who believes a lie. They can't resist it so they attack. If it was a lie it could be proven, but because it wasn't a lie the one who delivered it is attacked. That sort of nonsense happened to Jesus and I know it is considered blessed when it does, but it still irritates me that someone is accused for The Truth. Just like the Pharisees could not contradict Jesus' wisdom, that is what is happening here.

[Kan]

 

 

Me Nice purports one may take the darkness which passes away and make it into light....

 

Not sure what you are trying to state.  Please provide more information so we may understand.

 

2 Peter 3:10-11

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which

the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt

with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be

burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what

manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

KJV

You are claiming a works based salvation in your posts... now your works that you are claiming to

save you are going to be burnt up and we see those who were relying on those works here

Matt 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy

name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many

wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:

depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

KJV

It is clear that God is teaching us His disdain for sin and even the garment next to the sin

Jude 23-24

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the

garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from

falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with

exceeding joy,

KJV

Now in summing up this linear thought what manner of man are we to be understanding the value

God holds for this first creation... none except for fulfilling His Word in eschatology...

Yet you instruct that we may take from this first creation and maintain a salvation with it!

When in the council of the half brother of Jesus says it is God who will keep you from falling...

A works based premise for salvation is blasphemous to say the least! Love, Steven

 

 

Steven, you are mistaken if you have read that into Mr Nice's posts. He does not imply what you have concluded at all. See if you can examine the posts using strict rules of the English language.

[almightyist]

Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I blame people that argue against somebody like Mr nice for the condition of the United States. If we were actually doers of the word and obedient to JESUS our kids and grandkids would be safe wherever they went. We have churches on every corner but sin and glorified sin is out of control. They turn the grace of God into a license to sin. You reap what you sow.

I would rather have neighbors that support mr. Nice then those who oppose mr nice. The ones that oppose him may go back to their old man and do things not Nice.

Edited February 1, 2015 by almightyist