jewish beliefs and christian beliefs

[Guest LadyC]

and for the record, since it is kinda derailing this discussion (i think) and will be a while before i can get back to it, i'll create a new topic at the time.

[Spock]

"so let me ask you before i commit to such an endeavor. do you believe Jesus was present in the OT scriptures, and was central to the hebrew faith? or do you think Jesus only came to exist at the time of the miraculous conception?"

Excellent question. Yes, I believe Yeshua was present in the OT as the physical manifestation of God, for instance, every time a man figure showed up, like the Angel of the Lord (visiting Abraham, walking with Adam, etc) I believe that was Yeshua.

I'm still dubious as to how the Jews perceived him because I believe He did not become the Son until he came down from Heaven through Mary. I really do not know that when they believed in God this meant they believed in the trinity aspect of God.

So, did the Jews know about the trinity? Heck, many people today, even believers, struggle with knowing this. I suspect they didn't understand this because they always said, "the lord God is one...."

Lots of thoughts I have. Oh, and Fyi, I'm more interested in reading your thoughts and words than debating this with you. I don't need to win debates to feel good about myself. I truly am open here but like I said, it's not. BIG issue to settle.

[Guest LadyC]

i don't know if they believed in the trinity. but they certainly believed that the messiah would be born to a virgin and would come to save mankind. i'm not saying their perception wasn't skewed. (even now, our perception is probably skewed, because until we're with Him we'll never have all the answers). but they knew He was coming to save the world.

 

for the record, i don't need to have debates (or win them, or even to defend what i believe to others) to feel good about myself either. my value is in Him alone. we'll talk about this later.

[another_poster]

Hey Kwik,

Regarding salvation: I wonder if the original poster was asking, is it possible for a Jew, who trusts in God, BUT DOES NOT ACCEPT Yeshua as the Messiah, for that person to be saved. I suppose one could make a case that salvation according to the OT was more than believing in Yeshua as Messiah since it was not clear who Yeshua was other than prophecies about his coming. I suppose a saved Jew before CHRIST was one who believed in God, apart from CHRIST.

We know Yeshua is God the son so how can you believe in God today but not believe in God the son? It seems unlikely today you could believe in God without also believing in his son.

But I wonder if he is asking this. Can there be devout Jews today who follow Torah religiously but have been blinded to the truth, can they be saved like it was in OT times?

Just to make it clear no this was not my question.

[another_poster]

Hi all. I will try and think of a better way to phrase my question and examples that are not likely to cause heated debate. I really don't want to start heated debates but rather civil discussion where people listen. Certain areas that I'm thinking  of would lead to heated discussion just for mentioning in most christian circles hence my reluctance to bring it up.

[Qnts2]

Hello Qnts2:

I think we can agree on most of what you said.  I don't find anywhere in the Book of Romans that Paul said there was a conflict between the returning Jews and the Christians in a church assembly.  I do know that in 49 A.D. Claudius expelled the Jews (and of course not knowing there was a difference, he expelled the Christians also.  We see this with Aquila with his wife Priscilla in Acts 18:2.)  The return of the Jews to Rome was around 54 A.D. and Paul wrote Romans around 57 A.D.   Do you think this "strife" was going on for three years there in Rome between the Christians and the returning Jews?

We find the "theme" of Romans in Ro.1:16,17-- The gospel is God's Power for salvation.  The letter to the Romans above everything else is an explanation of how God justifies the sinner.  The verb in Greek for "justify" is dikanoo.  In Romans it is used 14 times and in Galatians 8 times.  In the rest of the N.T. it is only used 14 times.  So, this is what we are dealing with in Romans. 

 

I am not sure what you mean "that Gentiles wouldn't let the Jews have an 'equal' place in the church." 

 

You may be correct in the divisions upon the return, but I can't find it in Paul's writing(s).

 

thanks for your input,

In Christ,

charlesj

 

The Gentiles Christians were not expelled.

 

The explanation of the same way to salvation and how one is saved, is expressing an equality in Jesus/Yeshua, of both Jews and Gentiles. Just being Jewish does not earn any form of salvation, but Jews and Gentiles are sinners and the way to salvation is Jesus.  

Historically, it is known that the Jewish people were expelled from Rome and it appears in scripture as well.  

 

Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. ² And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them. ³ So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers. ⁴ And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

 

The Jews were expelled from about 49 ce and returned around 54 ce.

 

We see in the book of Romans, the Priscilla and Aquila had returned to Rome.

 

Romans  16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, ⁴ who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. ⁵ Likewise greet the church that is in their house.

 

The book of Romans, more then any other book, spends chapters explaining the relationship between Israel and Gentile Christians. He explains the difference between Israel and the Church and emphasizes the equality of Jewish and Gentile believers. Even in Chapter 1, he explains that the gospel is to the Jew first, and also the Gentile. In chapter 2, Paul addresses Jewish identity. In Chapter 3, Paul asks if there is any advantage to being a Jew. In chapter 14, he deals with Jewish dietary laws and in 15 he explains the relationship between the church and Israel. Of course there are 3 chapters entirely dedicated to the Jewish/Gentile issue, in which he warns the Gentile believers not to boast against Israel.

 

  

[kwikphilly]

Blessings another_poster

     There is a really cool bunch of our Brethren here on this thread,they are not apt to turn anything into a debate & are not argumentative ....we do "reason together",listen & discuss and if any of us get a little "off" ,there is usually one to remind each other to get out of the "flesh" & back in Spirit.............I would not want anyone to feel they have to "walk on eggs" when talking with one another,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Worthy is not as most"Christian circles" or "websites,it is a Blessed Ministry...............to God be the Glory,you are amongst friends,united by our Faith                         With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Spock]

Hey Kwik,

Regarding salvation: I wonder if the original poster was asking, is it possible for a Jew, who trusts in God, BUT DOES NOT ACCEPT Yeshua as the Messiah, for that person to be saved. I suppose one could make a case that salvation according to the OT was more than believing in Yeshua as Messiah since it was not clear who Yeshua was other than prophecies about his coming. I suppose a saved Jew before CHRIST was one who believed in God, apart from CHRIST.

We know Yeshua is God the son so how can you believe in God today but not believe in God the son? It seems unlikely today you could believe in God without also believing in his son.

But I wonder if he is asking this. Can there be devout Jews today who follow Torah religiously but have been blinded to the truth, can they be saved like it was in OT times?

Just to make it clear no this was not my question.

Hey poster, I have no idea what you were trying to ask. I was merely speculating. If you are able to put down your thoughts in words I will be happy to review it. My wife is Messianic and knows a lot about both cultures. Our good friends are Jewish and born again so they can provide insight too if need be. So go ahead and lay what is on your heart out here. Cheers

[FreeinChrist]

Perhaps i am wrong Another_Poster, but I think you are thinking of the Law of Liberty.

 

16)  Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy-day, or of the new-moon, or of the Sabbaths.

17)  Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

Colossians 2:16-17

From the above passage we see that much of the law was given to bring us to Jesus Christ.  If one reads Galatians 3:22-29, we see that the Law was our Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ Jesus.  Under Christ many of things that our commanded by the Law are put under the law of  liberty or freedom.  James 1:25; James 2:12.  The two things that aren't most definitely not to change are to love God and our neighbor, Matthew 22:37-40,

13)  For, brethren, ye have been called to liberty; only use not this liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14)  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

15)  But if ye bite and devour one another one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one by another.

Galatians 5:13-15

Paul gives us a clue as to what part of the Old Testament speaks to loving, see Romans 13:8-10.

[another_poster]

I haven't really been able to think of a good way of phrasing but I will ask one question all the same!

 

So traditional Jewish belief is that life begins with the first breath. This is referred to in genesis, job, ezekial & psalms. So why do christians use the OT to say no that is wrong. What specifically is it that causes christians to say the jewish view is clearly a misunderstanding?