How does Christ's death atone?

[Kan]

 

If the atonement is legally possible because God is the law giver, then why did He not make the law redundant, or by pass it, so that the Son did not have to suffer and die, and especially to become a man which must have been a humiliating and excruciating experience just to diminish His eternal realm of existence to a tiny, vulnerable, limited and mortal one.

 

He chose to do it that way. Perhaps to show us the seriousness of sin.

 

 

Somehow we know He had to do it, that there was no other way man could be saved, and yes it does show the seriousness of sin, and in contrast we have the great Life of the Son somehow replacing the lost life of sin.

The substitution of life is going on here, somehow we are living by the substitute of life as given by Christ through the merits of the cross, our original life was lost on the day that Adam sinned, now we all live by another life purchased for us.

[Littlelambseativy]

Yes! All unmerited and by faith because we are loved.

[Kan]

If there was another way to save sinners, God would have done it, because the plea in the garden by His Son, was also His plea. In the counsels of heaven over the fall of man, any of the three Persons of God were willing to give away Their life to save man, but All were not willing that the Other should go. But the final decision came to Christ, not by lottery, but because of the manner in which the universe was made and existed. And this separation was only endurable by God because of the eventual reward and consequence.

Love overcame all tragedy and darkness. But what a cost!

 

Had God spared His Son there would be no life on earth right from the time that Adam and Eve sinned.

 

What will help answer the Q of the thread is why is there no other way that man could be saved? 

Why did sin require this and how is it possible to satisfy the legal and natural (life) demands?

[OakWood]

 

 

 

You say man did not die..but man ( Adam ) did die...not the moment he tasted the fruit but he did die as do we. When I said it is a mystery I meant that a loving God would willingly send His Son to die for us so that we could be with Him forever. That kind of love is a mystery...we cannot imagine it. Jesus is the sacrifice for ALL will accept that willingly died in our place. Would anyone of us die in place of a man in prison on death row? But that is exactly what Jesus did.

 True, I understand what you are saying.

 

Let's say that someone offers to die for the guilty on death row, would that offer be acceptable in court?

No.

That's what I want to know by asking, How does Christ's death atone?

How is that possible? Legally and naturally.

 

 

It's not that God could not have done it any other way because he could have done. 

 

 

How could He have done it another way?

 

 

Take your pick. Your guess is as good as mine.

[OakWood]

 

 

We can understand to a degree why Christ is our substitute, but how can it be so?

 

How can His death pay for the penalty of the world, let alone His sinless life as the substitute for ours?

You need to read the old testament to undertand the new.  Jesus sacrifice was part of the atonement according to the sacrificial law set up through Moses.

 

As another said, Jesus is the scapegoat.  Leviticus 16 shows that Aaron sacrifices a goat for him and his household first.  He then sacrifices another for all of Israel.  But he then puts all of Israels sin onto the scapegoat and sends it away into the wilderness.  Often if you read those old Jewish books you would see people tying a red cord around the goats horn.  When it turned white the nation would realize God forgave them of their sin.  At times, it did not change.  And it stopped changing after Jesus came.  Aaron was the one who did this, and if you read Luke 1:5, John the Baptist is a descendant of Aaron.  Jesus himself said John was "elijah to come" and "john the greatest man born from women", the prophecies of John show him making Jesus paths straight.  Read it side by side, You see Jesus being baptized by John in the Jordan then John confessing Jesus took away the worlds sin.  Jesus goes into the wilderness.  All sin requires blood and without blood there is no forgiveness and that is why he was crucified.  When you pray for forgiveness for example I believe it is a false doctrine.  Example, these people were neither water baptized nor were they praying but they believed Acts 10:43-47.  Faith is what forgives but people put too much emphasis on the prayer.  You pray to God confessing your sin, but believing in the sacrifice. You confess your sin with a repentant heart, believing Jesus took away the worlds sin (his baptism, water) crucified all sin once and for all through his death (blood) and you will get the holy spirit.

 

1 John 5:6

 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1 John 5:8

the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

 

I hope you know then, the scapegoat was used to pay for the whole nation of Israel.  But Jesus came, and he paid for the whole world.  But to claim such a gift you have to repent firstly then believe

 

 

You have pointed out that there is an atonement and how it was demonstrated in the sanctuary service, but the Q is how does an atonement work?

 

You have just crashed your old car, so you crash your new car to atone for the old? That does not work does it?

 

How does the atonement, the substitution work? 

 

 

Crashing your new car to atone for the old would not work because then you are just left with two crashed cars. Cars are not living, breathing things. Remember that Jesus rose from the dead. A car cannot do so. A crashed car remains crashed.

The simplest answer I can give is that Jesus paid our debts for us. He is our benefactor with an unlimited bank balance. Imagine being fined in court and you can't afford to pay, then a philanthropic billionaire comes along and pays the fine for you purely out of charity.

It's a poor analogy but the best that I can do without going into great detail.

[Kan]

 

 

 

 

You say man did not die..but man ( Adam ) did die...not the moment he tasted the fruit but he did die as do we. When I said it is a mystery I meant that a loving God would willingly send His Son to die for us so that we could be with Him forever. That kind of love is a mystery...we cannot imagine it. Jesus is the sacrifice for ALL will accept that willingly died in our place. Would anyone of us die in place of a man in prison on death row? But that is exactly what Jesus did.

 True, I understand what you are saying.

 

Let's say that someone offers to die for the guilty on death row, would that offer be acceptable in court?

No.

That's what I want to know by asking, How does Christ's death atone?

How is that possible? Legally and naturally.

 

 

It's not that God could not have done it any other way because he could have done. 

 

 

How could He have done it another way?

 

 

Take your pick. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

 

I don't believe there is any other way that God could save us, because giving up his Son would be the last thing He would do, but God so loved the world...

[Kan]

 

 

 

We can understand to a degree why Christ is our substitute, but how can it be so?

 

How can His death pay for the penalty of the world, let alone His sinless life as the substitute for ours?

You need to read the old testament to undertand the new.  Jesus sacrifice was part of the atonement according to the sacrificial law set up through Moses.

 

As another said, Jesus is the scapegoat.  Leviticus 16 shows that Aaron sacrifices a goat for him and his household first.  He then sacrifices another for all of Israel.  But he then puts all of Israels sin onto the scapegoat and sends it away into the wilderness.  Often if you read those old Jewish books you would see people tying a red cord around the goats horn.  When it turned white the nation would realize God forgave them of their sin.  At times, it did not change.  And it stopped changing after Jesus came.  Aaron was the one who did this, and if you read Luke 1:5, John the Baptist is a descendant of Aaron.  Jesus himself said John was "elijah to come" and "john the greatest man born from women", the prophecies of John show him making Jesus paths straight.  Read it side by side, You see Jesus being baptized by John in the Jordan then John confessing Jesus took away the worlds sin.  Jesus goes into the wilderness.  All sin requires blood and without blood there is no forgiveness and that is why he was crucified.  When you pray for forgiveness for example I believe it is a false doctrine.  Example, these people were neither water baptized nor were they praying but they believed Acts 10:43-47.  Faith is what forgives but people put too much emphasis on the prayer.  You pray to God confessing your sin, but believing in the sacrifice. You confess your sin with a repentant heart, believing Jesus took away the worlds sin (his baptism, water) crucified all sin once and for all through his death (blood) and you will get the holy spirit.

 

1 John 5:6

 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1 John 5:8

the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

 

I hope you know then, the scapegoat was used to pay for the whole nation of Israel.  But Jesus came, and he paid for the whole world.  But to claim such a gift you have to repent firstly then believe

 

 

You have pointed out that there is an atonement and how it was demonstrated in the sanctuary service, but the Q is how does an atonement work?

 

You have just crashed your old car, so you crash your new car to atone for the old? That does not work does it?

 

How does the atonement, the substitution work? 

 

 

Crashing your new car to atone for the old would not work because then you are just left with two crashed cars. Cars are not living, breathing things. Remember that Jesus rose from the dead. A car cannot do so. A crashed car remains crashed.

The simplest answer I can give is that Jesus paid our debts for us. He is our benefactor with an unlimited bank balance. Imagine being fined in court and you can't afford to pay, then a philanthropic billionaire comes along and pays the fine for you purely out of charity.

It's a poor analogy but the best that I can do without going into great detail.

 

 

 

So Jesus has an unlimited bank balance of life, riches, whatever, why then would He have to give up His life, why can't He just draw on the creation or heaven account and pay the debt. Why not exchange the death penalty for a monetary sum and make a withdrawal?

[Kan]

Life is granted by God through the Son continuously, that is moment by moment. In Colossians it says all things are up held by Christ.

 

Creation is caused by the power of the word of God, which returns to Him via the created universe. It brings Joy. Rev 4:11.

 

Dysfunction or sin cannot exist in this perfect cycle of Life, unless God by passes the cause of it and receives the consequences.

 

The universe is created to be intimately connected and dependent on the presence and power of God, therefor whatever affects the creation affects Him. It was designed for freedom and joy, for all things in the universe, and thus to Himself, whose greatest joy is to give.

 

Why does God not ignore or wipe out the consequences of a sin and get on with it? Can He do that yes or no?

[ayin jade]

Life is granted by God through the Son continuously, that is moment by moment. In Colossians it says all things are up held by Christ.

 

Creation is caused by the power of the word of God, which returns to Him via the created universe. It brings Joy. Rev 4:11.

 

Dysfunction or sin cannot exist in this perfect cycle of Life, unless God by passes the cause of it and receives the consequences.

 

The universe is created to be intimately connected and dependent on the presence and power of God, therefor whatever affects the creation affects Him. It was designed for freedom and joy, for all things in the universe, and thus to Himself, whose greatest joy is to give.

 

Why does God not ignore or wipe out the consequences of a sin and get on with it? Can He do that yes or no?

 

Since God has not chosen to do it that way, speculation is pointless. We are to avoid vain or foolish questions. 

[Guest]

oh how can it not atone?

 

The Q is not whether the sacrifice of Christ atones, or why it atones, but how?

 

 

All Sin Is Against God

 

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

 

And Only God

 

And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Genesis 22:8

 

Saves

 

Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

 

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;

 

and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

 

Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 

And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

 

but after this the judgment:

 

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:20-28