Question about Jesus Christ

[Ezra]

Jesus had an earthly nature and body just as we do but he also had the divine nature of the Heavenly Father.

I don't mean to nit-pick but the term is generally "human nature", and for Christ "fully God and fully sinless Man" would line up with Scripture.  Some people try to distinguish between which things reflected just humanity and which things reflected just Deity, but Scripture does not allow for that either.  Both natures co-existed simultaeously without conflict or confusion.  And we are not required to *explain* this, since it is beyond human explanation.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Seeking1.

 

 

I have wondered how Jesus could even be the saviour of men if the fleshly body He inhabited had no sin nature whatsoever. How could He feel our infirmities or even be tempted as men are tempted, if not? I know most Christians say no to my idea of Jesus having any flesh with a sin nature during His incarnation, but I am actually skeptical of Jesus having inhabited a fleshly body that was completely free of sin. I feel like it actually violates "1 John 4:1-3." If so, how could His flesh be fully after the nature of Abraham or mankind in general? If it was made sinless, how did Jesus in fact die for our sins then? 

 

Some Christians charge Roman Catholics as being in violation of "1 John 4:1-3" due to their teaching of the "immaculate conception" (sinless nature) of the virgin Mary, but how is the assertion that Jesus had no fleshly sin nature much different from this false doctrine? Some Christians have asked, "If Mary had no sin nature, then how can Jesus be the savior of men at all?" If Jesus had no sin nature even while assuming that Mary did, how is this not the exact same problem where the atonement is concerned? In both cases, Jesus is still without a fleshly body that has the problem of a sin nature from Adam. 

 

If Jesus cleansed the sin nature while still in the womb of Mary, then how could He have died for our sins 33 years later on the cross since the sinful flesh nature had already been eliminated? So, the cross seems unnecessary then for the elimination of sin, since Jesus may have already done it while in the womb at the moment of conception. By this reasoning, therefore, when He died, He did not die in a sinful body like that of the rest of the human race. Do you get why I am having a problem here? 

 

I know Gnosticism is definitely a heresy. I do not believe it. As I have understood it, the Gnostics believed Jesus could not have possibly inhabited a body of flesh since He would have been tainted by its sin nature and forced into sin. I disagree. 

 

I think Jesus could have had flesh with a sin nature but perfectly overcame the temptation to sin due to His divine nature, which man does not have. His Divine nature could have been used to override the genuine temptation of the sinful, fleshly nature every single time. Hence, in the sense of perfectly avoiding sinning via His Divine nature, He could still be said to be "free of sin" and having "no sin within Him (His heart/mind)" even while being sincerely tempted by the flesh itself. Most Christians say that temptation itself is not a sin but rather giving into it. I, of course, believe that the Bible clearly teaches Jesus never gave into any kind of temptation for it to yield any kind of actual sin.

 

I have read a man online making the argument that if Jesus could have ever genuinely had the ability and/or choice to sin from His human nature (not from His Divine, as is evident from Titus 1:2 KJV), He could not be the trustworthy God of Scripture. Again, I disagree. He tried to argue that Christ only felt our infirmities in things like being hungry, tired, etc., which are weaknesses from having a natural body rather than from feeling any temptation to actually sin at all. 

 

I think this sounds lame and makes the proclamation "He was tempted in ALL ways as we are" a misleading statement at best and an outright lie at worst. Everyone knows being tempted to actually do something sinful is part of human nature and has plagued mankind since forever, and it is a real and ever-present infirmity, even for the Christian. If Christ lacked this, He did NOT experience temptation as mankind experiences it on a moment-by-moment basis, even in our very thoughts. 

 

So, for all practical purposes, the above proclamation is rendered worthless to me if this is true. If true, Jesus then cannot really relate to mankind's struggle in the way He has claimed. I find the man's apologetic for Jesus lacking a fleshly sin nature questionable for that very reason. Does anyone have any other ideas/thoughts? Or a better argument than this man? Thanks!

 

 

 

Perhaps the first thing one should discuss is this: What is “sin?” And, what is a “sin nature?” Is it a part of the body in some way? OR, is it a purely the attitude and tendency of the individual apart from the body? OR, is it some combination of the two?

 

To have a better understanding of what the Scriptures say about it and how to discuss it, one must first define his or her terms.

[WilliamL]

Shalom, WilliamL.

 

The soul derives from the father. All of our fathers were sinful: only Jesus had a sinless father.

 

The flesh of itself is not sinful. It is corrupted by its lineage from our sinful ancestors, yes, but it is not sinful in itself. Sin results from choice, and choices are made by souls, not bodies.

 

You need a more biblical definition of “soul.” If you study it out, you will find that a person BECOMES a “soul" the moment he or she takes his or her first breath! The word “nefesh” in Hebrew means “one that breathes!” The body takes in the “spirit” (Hebrew: ruach = the “wind" or the “breath") and man becomes a living “nefesh”- a “soul!” (Genesis 2:7) He ceases to be a “soul” when he draws his last “breath."

The body of flesh is the garment of the soul. The soul is the garment of the spirit. The spirit is the garment of the breath/neshamah. The neshamah is the garment of life/chayyim. The Life is in the Word, and that life is the light of men. John 1:4

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Ezra.

 

 

He ceases to be a “soul” when he draws his last “breath."

 

Retro,

Not sure how you came up with this, but it is certainly NOT Bible truth. Souls do not cease to exist. Redeemed souls go to be with the Lord.  Unredeemed souls go to Hades to await their final judgment.  And there is no such thing as "soul sleep" either.  The body metaphorically sleeps in the grave, whereas souls remain alive.

 

 

It IS biblical. What you are failing to realize is that souls can also be REMADE, RE-CREATED! (You’re also spending too much time in theology books without their biblical background.) When God breathed into the body of Adam, he “became a living soul”  - “nefesh chayaah” - a “living breather." It was the record of the very first Cardio-Pulmonary Resuscitation or CPR, although technically he wasn’t alive first to “REsuscitate." That’s scriptural (Gen. 2:7). Souls DO cease to exist. When the “spirit” (Hebrew: ruwach, the “wind" or “breath” of either a person or an animal) leaves that being for the last time naturally, the body is no longer termed a “soul,” a “creature that breathes.” He is just a “nVeelaah.” He is a “dead body - a carcase” that must be buried.

 

Now, where did YOU come up with “Redeemed souls go to be with the Lord. Unredeemed souls go to Hades to await their final judgment”? Didn’t this nonsense originate in the Dark Ages?

 

“Hades” (or rather, “Hadees,” since it is spelled with an eta and not an epsilon, properly pronounced “HAH-dace,” not “HAY-deez”) is a Greek word that means the “Unseen.” Its usage is like our word, the “Unknown.” Typically, it refers to the "place of the dead," but that was romanticized by the Greek culture and its mythology as the “realm of the Greek god by the same name." The common “place of the dead” is simply the grave. Do we follow the Scriptures or Greek mythology?

 

Now, I know that you will attempt to take me to Luke 16, but that “Hadees,” that place “Unseen," is where he AWOKE! Notice that the rich man ALREADY HAD his eyes and his tongue and his ears to hear Avraham! Eleazar (Lazarus) ALREADY HAD a finger he could dip in water! These are parts of the BODY! This is FOLLOWING the 2nd resurrection!

 

Another word that is commonly translated “hell” is the Greek word “ge-enna,” commonly written “gehenna.” The word is a Greek transliteration from the Hebrew phrase “gay'-Hinnom,” which means “valley of Hinnom,” the place near Jerusalem where Israel’s kings set up their judgment seats. This is talking about Yeshua`s JUDGMENT when He returns to Israel - the Judgment Seat of the Messiah - the Judgment Seat of the Christ.

 

This is why the person is INCOMPLETE without his or her body! This is why we are instructed to anticipate joyfully the RESURRECTION, NOT “going to Heaven when we die!"