the bride of Christ

[Guest shiloh357]

You completely ignored I Cor. 3:9-11 which torpedoes your beggarly interpretation of Eph. 2:20.    Jesus and Jesus alone is the foundation of the Church.   If the New Jerusalem is the Church your argument is defeated any sense the names of the apostles are not on the foundation of the New Jerusalem, but on its walls.

 

The apostle's were laying a foundation.  They were not the foundation.

 

It is not given  a female "persona."   It is metaphorically referred to as  a bride.  It is a city, not a people group.

[Guest shiloh357]

I didn't present a contradiction.   You presented ONE verse and I presented the rest of the story.  I didn't present a contradiction.  I presented a correction.   Paul clearly states that no one can lay another foundation other than Jesus.   The apostles are not foundation   It is their preaching of Christ that Paul has in view.

 

Bride is not a persona.  Bride is a metaphor. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Foundation, cornerstone are two different images that speak to the same principle.  A building is built on a foundation and the cornerstone or capstone is integral to the integrity of a given structure.   The point is that it all depends on Jesus and no one else.

 

As for the Bride imagery..   Which part of "metaphor" do you not understand?????      The city is not being personified.  Paul is using the image of the bride to make point about the purity and beauty of the city.  Nothing more.   He is not saying the city is female. 

[Guest Butero]

 

People don't realize that the idea that the church is Christ's bride is a holdover from thousands of years of anti-Semitism when the church thought it was the new Israel as God's wife now applies to the church.

 

 

This quote by Shiloh got my attention as I was reading through this thread.  The bride of Christ, according to scripture, is the city New Jerusalem.  The idea that the bride is the church or Israel is wrong. 

 

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  Rev. 21:2

 

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.  Rev.  21:9,10

 

Jesus compared the church to different things in various parables, but the bride of Christ is the city, New Jerusalem. 

 

As for the body of Christ, there is but one body and it is comprised of Jewish believers and gentile believers.  Natural Jews who reject Christ are cut off from their own spiritual tree, and gentile believers become part of that tree.  Gentiles don't replace Israel in their tree.  They become part of it.  Gentiles become Jews by adoption.  I agree with OC on that point, and have debated this point in the past in other threads.  I am glad that she can see the same thing I do in that regard.  Lets examine what the scripture says in Romans 11:16 through 24.

 

16  for if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy:  and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18  Boast not against the branches.  But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19  Thou wilt say then,  The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20  Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.  Be not highminded, but fear:

 

Before continuing with this passage, God is telling us through the Apostle Paul that there is one tree.  Israel makes up the natural branches.  The tree belonged to them.  Those Jews who rejected Christ, and continue to reject Christ are cut off from that tree.  The gentiles were not originally part of this tree.  When a gentile puts their trust in Christ, they are graffed into a tree they originally were not part of with the Jews.  Again, notice what it says in verse 17.  "...and with them partakes of the root and the fatness of the olive tree."  The gentiles don't replace Israel.  Believing gentiles become one with believing Jews and become one spiritual tree. 

 

21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

This is an important verse.  It states that God spared not the natural branches.  Who are the natural branches?  Natural Israel.  This is where the doctrine of replacement theology comes in.  It appears that God replaced Israel, the natural branches with the gentile believers, and they took Israel's place in this tree.  In reality, God only removed the branches (Jews) that rejected Christ.  The natural branches that accepted Christ, remain in their own olive tree.  They were not cut off.  While this is taking place, gentiles, who didn't know the true and living God, and didn't have any understanding of a Messiah, through faith in Jesus became part of that tree, and replaced the natural branches (Jews) that were cut off because of unbelief.  If the gentiles reject Christ, just as the Jews were cut out of that tree because of unbelief, the gentiles will be cut out of that tree because of unbelief. 

 

22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:  on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness:  otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in:  for God is able to graff them in again.

24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree:  how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

Lets look at this very carefully.  The Jews were originally part of the good olive tree.  They have been God's chosen people ever since God made promises to Abraham because of his faith.  God created a nation through Abraham's son Isaac and his descendants.  They remained part of a good olive tree, and then God sent Jesus Christ, the Messiah to the world.  Up until now, the gentiles were not part of the good olive tree.  They were part of a wild olive tree.  Jesus Christ caused divisions among the branches.  Some believed in Christ, and that he was the Messiah and savior of the world, and some rejected him.  Those who accepted Jesus remained part of the good olive tree, but those who rejected Christ were cut off from the good olive tree.  Many gentiles, who were never part of the good olive tree, believed in and put their faith in Christ, and as a result, were "cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree."  Notice, there are two trees mentioned here.  One is wild and one is good.  The gentiles don't remain wild branches in a good tree when they accept Christ.  They are removed or cut out of a wild olive tree and graffed into a good olive tree.  In that sense, though the term "adopted Jew" does not exist, that is exactly what occurs.  The gentiles who believe become as adopted Jews and dwell in the same good tree with the natural branches, the natural Jews.  The Jews that reject Christ are no longer considered Jews in the spiritual sense and are cut off and the gentiles that reject Christ are never included in the good olive tree, but they remain as they always were, part of a wild olive tree.  Notice what it says in Romans 2:28,29

 

28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

There is a difference between being a descendant of Abraham, (or perhaps I should say a descendant of Abraham through his son Isaac so there won't be any confusion) and being a Jew through faith.  You can be a Jew in the natural and not partake of the promises of God because of unbelief, just as you can be a person who is unable to trace their heritage back to Abraham through is son Isaac, and partake of the promises of God to Israel through faith in Jesus Christ.  There is but one body, and it is comprised of believing Jews and believing gentiles.  I am not a Jew by natural birth, but I am a Jew by new birth as a result of my faith in Christ Jesus.  It is also possible to be a Jew by natural birth, but be cut off from being a Jew in the eyes of God through unbelief.  Just because you can trace your blood line back to Isaac, that doesn't make you a Jew spiritually.  You can be disowned.  Jesus actually told some of the religious crowd that were Jews in the natural that they were children of the devil, not children of God, because they rejected God's plan of salvation. 

 

Here is the deal in a nutshell.  The gentile church did not replace the Jews.  All the Jews were not rejected.  The Jews that reject Christ are cut off and the gentiles that reject Christ are never included.  The Jews that accept Christ remain part of the good olive tree, and the gentiles that accept Jesus are cut off from the wild olive tree and placed in the good olive tree with the believing natural Jews.  If the natural Jews who reject Christ now, accept him down the road, they will be restored to the olive tree they were cut out of, and that will happen to many of the Jews as a result of the events that will occur during the tribulation period.  Many will accept Christ, and be restored to their olive tree. 

 

A great deal has happened in this thread since I posted last.  It was closed and now it has been opened again.  I didn't want to have to go and re-type the scriptures I posted again, but I do want to re-affirm the general point I was making.  I know it is not popular with the majority here, but I believed it to be true when I posted this, and nothing anyone said has changed my mind.  I believe that the Jews were God's people, and still are.  I don't believe the gentile believers have taken the place of the Jews, but here is where I differ from people like Shiloh.  I believe that the scriptures I posted clearly show that the Jews that rejected Christ are no longer considered Jews in the sight of God, even though they can trace their roots back to Jacob.  I also believe that the scriptures I posted clearly show that gentiles that accepted Christ cease to be looked at as gentiles, but are seen as Jews in the sight of God.  Those who are Jews in the natural who follow Christ continue to be Jews in the sight of God, and gentiles who accept Christ are looked at as Jews by adoption.  I don't care if the term "adopted Jew" is in scripture or not.  That is the net result of what occurred according to Romans.

 

Here is where another dispute takes place among some, and that is the legitimacy of the current Jewish state of Israel.  I know of some gentiles who say it is not legitimate, and they have similar beliefs to mine.  I disagree with them.  The restoration of Israel is a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.  The finger of God is in Israel becoming a nation again, and anyone that fights against them will fall under a curse.  It is God's plan that eventually, a large number of natural Jews will come to accept Christ during the great tribulation period, and be saved.  It is God's plan to set up a government in the land of Israel, where Jesus Christ will rule and reign over the entire earth.  As such, I fully stand with Israel and their right to not only exist, but to expand to their original borders, as were established by God in the Old Testament.  It is not a simple matter of the church replacing Israel.  What happens is unbelieving Jews are cut off spiritually, and believing gentiles become Jews. 

 

I couldn't care less if Shiloh or others wish to accuse me of racism towards my own people.  Make your accusations.  They roll right off my back.  I am not that easily intimidated.  We were described as being in a wild olive tree, as compared to the Jews who were said to be in a good olive tree.  The gentile Christians were literally cut out of the wild tree (which wasn't used as a good term, but a negative one) and graffed into a good tree, the same tree that the believing Jews are part of.  There is one church, and there is one group of people that are seen by God as Israel, and they are one people by faith, just as Ruth became an adopted Jew by faith.  Believe me or reject what I am saying.  Accuse me as you like of using poor Bible exegis, poor hermeneutics, making too much of the olive tree, taking things too literal, or even racism, or even worse, anti-Semitism, and I won't take back one thing I said.  Of course, the anti-Semitism stuff will be hard to make stick since I see myself as Jewish by adoption, but it doesn't mean someone won't try it.  Just as a person can convert to being a Jew, and yes, that does happen, and even the Jewish people accept them as converting to Judaism, a person can become an adopted Jew in the sight of God by accepting the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ.  By the way, that is no mistake I am calling Jesus the Jewish Messiah, but remember, I believe I am Jewish by adoption, so he is my Messiah, and I am in the same covenant relationship with Christ believing Jews are. 

 

Everything in bold print was added by me on 4-3-15.

 

[Openly Curious]

Hi Marilyn,  Before I delve into all of this,  

 

Can you tell me your interpretation of just what you believe is the "oath of promise" God made to Abraham"?

 

I do not want to assume your position.  It will help in not derailing the thread on my part as well.    

[Guest shiloh357]

Butero, I didn't accuse you of racism.    What I said is that the notion of the Church being the bride of Christ originated from replacement theology and that the early church fathers saw all Israelite imagery as pertaining to the church.   The bride of Christ being the church has its origin in the anti-Semitism of the church fathers.

[Guest Butero]

OK Shiloh.  Anyway, it seems like there is a great deal of different opinions here, so I am glad the thread was re-opened.  It has been interesting to read.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Bride imagery isn't meant to say that the New Jerusalem is female.  It  is meant to speak to the quality of its purity.  

[Guest Butero]

I must say, the argument that InChrist is making that the church is the bride of Christ because the name of the 12 Apostles are on the walls seems a bit bazaar to me.  I have been in churches where the names of important people were on the walls.  The same things happens in hospitals.  The names aren't the people.  That is one heck of a stretch to make.  The church is compared to a bride, but it is also mentioned as being guests at the wedding.  The city itself is the bride, not the church, and if anything, I would say we are guests at the wedding.  Of course, all of this is symbolic. 

[Guest shiloh357]

I haven't bothered with your questions because I am not letting you take the driver's seat in this conversation.  I am not going to be interrogated by you. 

 

At  the end of the day, you have not provided ONE verse that says the New Jerusalem is the Church.   You are trying to employ a lot of theological gymnastics because you  are arguing in a theological vacuum of information.   You are amusing, but this is getting really old.