Does the man of sin meet the requirements to be Islamic?

[Diaste]

 

 

 

 

At the Exodus, YHWH came first in a pillar of cloud and fire; then in Presence, speaking personally to all the people from Mount Sinai; and much later as a warrior, to fight all the kings assembled together against Joshua and Israel. YHWH did not come three separate times: this was all one continuous coming.

 

The same will occur when the Lord comes in the Latter Days: one continuous coming, manifested over time and in different ways. Those who say that the Lord will only come as a warrior to fight at Armageddon totally misunderstand that, once again, that is only the last manifestation of his coming, which will have already begun much, much earlier.

 

 

"The same will occur when the Lord comes in the Latter Days: one continuous coming, manifested over time and in different ways. Those who say that the Lord will only come as a warrior to fight at Armageddon totally misunderstand that, once again, that is only the last manifestation of his coming, which will have already begun much, much earlier."

 

I have heard about this "continuous coming" for decades. Never seen any scripture relating to this.

 

 

Revelation 6:12-17 says that after the 6th Seal is opened, there are great heavenly and earthly cataclysms, followed by the people of the earth hiding themselves from the sight of the Face of God and the Lamb, "For the great day of his wrath came/is come..." The verb is in the aorist tense: aorist means without (a-) time/horizon (-oristos). What this indicates in the context is "past or present and continuing action." That is, the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord begins or has just begun at this point, and will continue for some extended period of time. English has no tense equivalent, which is why it is so hard to translate: in English, it should literally read, "...the great day of his wrath is/has come and continues..."

 

This is exactly what occurred when God came at the Exodus, as noted above. God's Presence initially came with the pillar of cloud and fire, and continued to accompany Israel in various manifestations for the 40 years of the wilderness sojourn, and afterward during the conquest of Canaan. The Book of Revelation chapters 4-19 are the account of the events that will occur during the whole period of the Presence in the Latter Days. It is ludicrous to presume that when the men of earth hide themselves from the glory of the Lord at his coming, for example, that this will be the very same day when the kings of the earth are also going out to fight against him.

 

This was an excellent explanation until you said some contradictory things. 

How can chapters 4-19 be the events of the 'presence' when you say below the continuing presence begins at the sixth seal? Certainly chapters 4-6 are chronological and we see Jesus in Heaven, and not on the earth, in chapter 5. The beginning of the presence of the Lord begins on earth at the time of the signs in heaven described in Rev 6, Rev 16 and in Matt 24 so it would seem the 'presence' of the Lord begins much later than chapter 4. And then you said that only chapters 4-19 are the continuing presence of the Lord when clearly Jesus is present in the City of God in the last chapters.

 

The Coming of Christ is a continuing presence beginning at the 6th Seal, along with the continuing Day of Wrath. The Church is removed to heaven first, after the 6th Seal is opened, which is shown clearly in Rev. 7. The Messianic Kingdom of earthly Israel is established at the 7th Trumpet, following the 1260 days of Jacob's Trouble: Dan. 7, Rev. 11-13, etc. Two different culminations: first heavenly, then earthly Israel. The 7th Bowl finalizes Christ's defeat of the Gentile nations that remain in rebellion against his authority, who are led by the Beast.

 

Here is an example of two other aorist verbs in context:

John 3:16 For God so loved [and continues to love: aorist tense] the world, that he gave [and continues to give: aorist tense] his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Aorist verbs are usually translated into English Bibles "as simple past tense." (blueletterbible.org) But as you can see from the example of John 3:16 above, the much deeper meaning is lost in such a translation.

 

 I have long know about the aorist. I think you have applied it perfectly when saying the continuing presence of the Lord begins at the 6th seal, at the time of the signs in heaven. That being said there are no scriptures that describe Jesus being present on earth before the 6th seal. So the assumption that He is present on earth before that is specious. 

[bubbles baloo]

we will not know who is who or what is what until that time comes .

and about islam  being one of the 4, well in arabic but im a christian and i even think that islam IS  part of the who apocalypse .

with el  kaeida now isis . but hey when i was a kid we alll thought russians were the anti christ. things change so  dont worry about it till its here , then start worrying and praying

[Diaste]

 

 

There is no other instance before Assyria's actual attack that Israel "as a people" dwelt (sojourned) in Egypt to be oppressed by Assyria / the Assyrian.

 

So something else is being conveyed by God than plain human history .. this is spiritual history in a mystery that is being revealed.

 

Have a think on it Argosy ..

 

Blessings.

 

To:  Serving and Sister

 

Look I agree that sometimes the Assyrian could be Satan, but to say he always has to be Satan is taking the concept a little too far. Israel was interacting with Assyria for some time, so its likely the word is used in its literal capacity too.  And i did go in depth to show that particularly in Isaiah 52:4 the literal Assyrian fits the context as well, and the NIV version makes some sense from a Hebrew perspective.

 

As I said before, the NIV  states the following:  “At first my people went down to Egypt to live;     lately, Assyria has oppressed them.

 

I checked this out with the Hebrew and it looks correct because of common usage of the "vav" as explained earlier. So Serving, all your caps lock and bold did not make your point because the NIV has different wording and the NIV is faithful to the original Hebrew. History and the bible agree on Isaiah 52:4 that first Israel was in Egypt, then later Assyria oppressed them. This verse is not saying that Assyria oppressed them in Egypt, the verse says that  Israel went down to Egypt to live then later Assyria oppressed them. Yes the ten tribes of Israel were taken into captivity, which fits the verse in itself but Assyria did however oppress Judah as well, Judah becoming a vassal state of Assyria, in subjection to them.

 

But I would like to put that discussion aside now and concentrate on the "king of the North" from Daniel 11:36-45.  This antichrist who dies at the time of the resurrection is defined as the "king of the North" which title was attributed to the king of the Seleucids who was based in the Assyrian/Kurdish territories.  Surely this defines the antichrist as from that region?

 

I think you are right on. The king of the north is from that region and the beast likely comes out of the Seleucid territory. I also think that perhaps the king of the north is actually a little further north in Asia Minor. This set of verses, Dan 11:36-45 leads to this conclusion. The willful king is the first beast as he exalts himself above God himself. He is also allowed to rule until wrath is completed. He wars against the king of the north and the king of the south at the time of the end. This last king who exalts himself is neither the king of the the north or south. However, i'm assured that these kings in Dan 11 are the successors to Alexander's domain. Even if i'm not right about the identity of the willful king it's positive that we should be looking to the remains of the Grecian Empire and not to Rome for the rise of the beast.

[Diaste]

 

 

 

Revelation 6:15   And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 

The people are deeply afraid because man whom they trusted in could not save them.

 

Do you really believe that? Here is the reason they are afraid.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

They fear because God is now made manifest. If the people were afraid because some man they trusted could not save them then the scripture would have recorded that statement. What scripture did record is the people asking the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the wrath that is about to come.

[Diaste]

 

 

Hi William,

 

 

So when people use the term "man of sin [the son of perdition]," and then start talking about him as if he is the same person as "the Antichrist," or as the False Prophet, the Beast, Gog, and so on --  then all they do is sow confusion

 

No I'm just speaking of the false prophet being the man of sin / son of perdition to come (I'm aware Judas was called son of perdition too but I'm not speaking of the past, but of the near future)

 

Anyway, the below is speaking of the false prophet, here he is called both man of sin & son of perdition in the same verse :

 

 

2 Thessalonians

 

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

WHY do you believe the man of sin, the Son of Perdition, is the same person as the False Prophet? My point exactly: what 2 biblical witnesses support this conclusion? You haven't given us any.

 

I do not believe they are the same person.

 

2 Thes. 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

 

Now, Rev. 19 tells us that the False Prophet will not be destroyed until the battle of Armageddon, the very last act of the Satan's end time rebellion. But if Jesus comes for his Church before this time, "with power and great glory," Mt. 24:31, "with a shout/lit. voice of command," 1 Thes. 4:16, then THAT is when the Son of Perdition will be destroyed. Ergo, he cannot be the False Prophet.

 

Judas, the only other Son of Perdition, was destroyed shortly after the crucifixion, and quite possibly the resurrection, of Jesus. That is, early on in the process. The biblical evidence best suggests to me that the latter-day Son of Perdition will likewise be the one who starts the whole process of the last days, not the one who is there at the end of it. And the person who best fits that description is the final King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45, who

 

11:45 ...shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas at the glorious holy mountain [=the Temple Mount]; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, ...And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.

 

The last phrase is the Great Tribulation, which occurs right at the time of the demise of the one who sits in the Holy Place of God [2 Thes. 2:4, Mt. 24:15], the Temple Mount, quite likely on the site of the ancient Temple. Then he is soon after destroyed by the coming of Jesus. He cannot be the False Prophet.

 

 

William,

 

2 Thess is speaking of the coming world leader known as the false prophet. Chapter 2 gives us 12 verses of explanations and verse 3, as I supplied for you, calls him that man of sin & the son of perdition in the same breath .. and yet you still dispute it as though I had made it up & that I haven't supplied evidence for my explanation?

 

So the above scripture proved that accusation as wrong for those two titles pertaining to one man.

 

As for the third title, "the little horn"..

 

It was proved to you before that the little horn is the false prophet .. I was amongst a few others who supplied scriptural information and you just disappeared from the debate of which you were consistently involved until that information was provided? hmmm .. maybe you lost interest and didn't see it?

 

Nevertheless, I do see why you can not see it .. it is your belief in "pre trib rapture" .. this is why you can not see that wicked man for who he is in my opinion .. pre trib rapture doctrine really does undo the prophecies on this subject and divides one subject into two .. that is the problem I am discerning. 

 

Pre trib rapture was introduced by men as an interpretation much later on & never taught by the Lord .. so the burden of proof is not on us who do not accept that doctrine, but on those who do preach it. 

 

Thus debating this subject will go nowhere, the debate is really to do with pre trib rapture .. and when one holds that belief, it is very very hard to make them let go, because those who hold that belief dearly want it to be true because deep down in the recesses of their hearts, the thought of suffering for our Lord offends them .. and the answer is always the same .. "Why" they say, why would the Lord let the "church" suffer?

 

But, "Blessed is he who is not offended in Me".

 

And that is the core truth of this pre trib matter and I have heard it thousands of times .. not saying you do this, but I have witnessed many "pre tribbers" that do say it.

 

Thank you William.   

 

Hi,

Gotta chime in here.

It looks like you are saying the false prophet is identified in 2 Thess 2. Many of us have always thought this is the anitchrist, or beast. But I think there are two verses in 2 Thess 2 that prove beyond doubt this person is not the false prophet. First,

2 Thess 2:4

 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

His actions in the above verse have been used consistently in scripture to describe the beast. The false prophet is never described doing the things in the above verse. i.e. Rev 13:5-6

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Clearly the same actions. The person doing this is the first beast out of the sea. There are TWO beasts in Rev 13, not one, with different attributes so they are not the same. Now the other verse. 2 Thess 2:9

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Now Rev 13 tells us there are 2 beasts. One out of the sea and the other out of the earth. The second beast only has the same powers as the first beast. i.e., Rev 13:12

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

We can't say that just because 2 Thess 2:9 records this man coming with signs and lying wonders that he is the second beast, or false prophet, as the first beast has the same powers. Logically, there has to be another, greater than the second beast. The second beast causes the earth to worship the first beast. Why? Because the first beast is the power and the second beast is the tool. Also, the first beast is the one who exalts himself and commits blasphemy where the second beast, false prophet, deceives the world into worshiping the first beast. Read Rev 13:11-18

 Now lets look at the little horn.

Dan 7

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 8:11

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

There is enough imagery in the above verses to conclude unequivocally the little horn is the same as the first beast from Rev 13.

To remain consistent anytime we see this endtime prophecy describing a man speaking great words against the most High God, or exalting himself above God, etc, it has to be the same person. So, the little horn, the man of sin, the son of perdition(two phrases describing the same person), the first beast out of the sea, and the beast whose deadly head would was healed, are all the same person. The beast. The Antichrist. Not the false prophet.

[Diaste]

 

I've been working to spread the word that the beast of Revelation will not be Islamic.  Ever since the book the "Islamic antichrist" came out this theory has circulated.  But, the author gives too much credibility to the predictions in the kuran/hadiths.  Since those "prophecies" were manmade and not inspired by the one and only Holy Spirit, they are nothing more than lies.

 

Most likely muhamed tried to convince the Jews and Christians that he was a prophet of their god and may have quoted/paraphrased parts of the bible (written or verbal, who knows), to convince them he was a prophet.  They didn't buy it, for obvious reasons to them, and he went on a rampage to force them to believe in him, and began supplanting the bible with his own teachings, such as that Abraham was going to sacrifice his son Esau instead of Isaac in Medina, instead of Jerusalem, to allah, and other parts of the bible.

 

This beast will be as a lamb and will convince the world He is the long awaited Jewish Messiah.  In order for this to work, he will have to say that Christ wasn't the Messiah but only a prophet, just like his disciples.

 

John 5: 43, says, and I paraphrase" and if another should come in his own name, him you will receive."

 

So, we know the Jews will accept this person as their messiah, until he defiles the Holy Temple by claiming to be their god.

 

The Jews will not accept a muslim as a prophet, messiah or god and that is why I believe that the antichrist (beast) will not be Islamic.

 

I think the islamists play a major role in setting up the end times, but their chaos and belligerence against the world will make them unwelcome guests here.  They are outnumbered 3-1 in the world right now and it will not tolerate their atrocities against us much longer.  Until we learn to set our own interests aside and unite against them, then we will have to suffer the indignity of living in constant fear of them.

 

Hi Justin M,

 

Though I agree he will not be a Islamic figurehead, and that you have indeed made some very good points showing that you have thought this through well, well .. until we get around this :  Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. the whole argument that he pretends to be either a Christian Messiah, or a Judaic Messiah or an Islamic Messiah etc etc falls flat.

 

You see, even if this man claims Jesus was just a prophet and that it is he himself who is the real Messiah, one fact can not be dismissed lightly .. and that is this .. any one claiming to be God's Messiah must by default praise God the Father exactly like Jesus did, and Jesus praised Him extensively .. be they Judaic or Christian .. yet as the scripture above declares, this man will not even regard God the Father (regard = point to, acknowledge etc) .. a criteria the Jews would expect above all else.

 

It seems more likely that this man, coming as a problem solver to the problems they (elites) made in the first place, lets the Jews finally build their temple whilst ruling over the beast empire in the European theatre .. if you note Isaiah 28:14-19, Israel gets double crossed by this man / empire and are defeated .. now the temple probably isn't finished yet at this stage yet the false prophet obviously demands its ongoing construction (for in his heart he wants to sit in that temple) until the time appointed.

 

And when he finally does sit in this temple, I don't think the Jews have a say in it (remember, Israel is under occupation by that stage).. for it is only when he sits in this temple that he claims to be God himself .. and no Jew in his right mind would accept a man as being God Himself .. so something else is going on rather than him pretending to be a Judaic or Christian Messiah in my opinion.

 

The rabbit hole gets deeper now ..

 

Blessings.

 

I think you should check this out.

Rev 17 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

" One of those scholars, the Bahraini cleric Turki al-Bin’ali, cites a saying attributed to Muhammad that predicts a total of twelve caliphs before the end of the world. Bin’ali considers only seven of the caliphs of history legitimate. That makes Baghdadi the eighth out of twelve"

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119259/isis-history-islamic-states-new-caliphate-syria-and-iraq

 

If indeed Al Baghdadi is the eighth of 12 then he is also of the 7, perfectly fitting the above verse from Rev 17. Do you or anyone else know of a person in all of history that has been described as the eighth, and of the 7? Well, The Bahrani cleric Bin'ali has just described Al Baghdadi in this fashion. Still think the beast cannot be Islamic? It seems prophecy begs to differ.

Right here you could be looking at the beast and his false prophet. It's likely we are.

[Sister]

 

 

 

 

Revelation 6:15   And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 

The people are deeply afraid because man whom they trusted in could not save them.

 

Do you really believe that? Here is the reason they are afraid.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

They fear because God is now made manifest. If the people were afraid because some man they trusted could not save them then the scripture would have recorded that statement. What scripture did record is the people asking the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the wrath that is about to come.

 

 

Diaste

 

Yes I agree, but you didn't quote what I said after that.

 

This is what I said;

The people are deeply afraid because man whom they trusted in could not save them.

They must be remembering the two witnesses already killed and their warnings that the Lamb will return for vengeance.

They will remember that the two killed witnesses came back to life 3 1/2 days later, and the world saw.

They realise only now what the 2 witnesses spoke is true,..because it's still fresh, and they acknowledge that this is the Lamb who has come.

This is the day the Lord spoke of.  This is the actual day of Christ's return, his coming.

No other day or trumpet can compare to this day when men realise who is really in charge.

 

 

They will know it's the Lamb who has come, every eye shall see, but before that, the world is in spiritual darkness.  They have been deceived and do not know what is really going on.

They won't know who they are really fighting against, and only realise who it is when Christ strikes back. 

 

The UFO stories have been planted in our minds for decades.  Is it true, is it not true?  The world in darkness wonders.

We know who the enemy is, but the world has been brainwashed for so long they can't tell the truth from a lie.

This UFO propaganda is to prepare the world to believe the lie, and plant the seed for the big day coming.

[Serving]

 

 

 

Hi William,

 

 

So when people use the term "man of sin [the son of perdition]," and then start talking about him as if he is the same person as "the Antichrist," or as the False Prophet, the Beast, Gog, and so on --  then all they do is sow confusion

 

No I'm just speaking of the false prophet being the man of sin / son of perdition to come (I'm aware Judas was called son of perdition too but I'm not speaking of the past, but of the near future)

 

Anyway, the below is speaking of the false prophet, here he is called both man of sin & son of perdition in the same verse :

 

 

2 Thessalonians

 

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

WHY do you believe the man of sin, the Son of Perdition, is the same person as the False Prophet? My point exactly: what 2 biblical witnesses support this conclusion? You haven't given us any.

 

I do not believe they are the same person.

 

2 Thes. 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

 

Now, Rev. 19 tells us that the False Prophet will not be destroyed until the battle of Armageddon, the very last act of the Satan's end time rebellion. But if Jesus comes for his Church before this time, "with power and great glory," Mt. 24:31, "with a shout/lit. voice of command," 1 Thes. 4:16, then THAT is when the Son of Perdition will be destroyed. Ergo, he cannot be the False Prophet.

 

Judas, the only other Son of Perdition, was destroyed shortly after the crucifixion, and quite possibly the resurrection, of Jesus. That is, early on in the process. The biblical evidence best suggests to me that the latter-day Son of Perdition will likewise be the one who starts the whole process of the last days, not the one who is there at the end of it. And the person who best fits that description is the final King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45, who

 

11:45 ...shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas at the glorious holy mountain [=the Temple Mount]; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, ...And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.

 

The last phrase is the Great Tribulation, which occurs right at the time of the demise of the one who sits in the Holy Place of God [2 Thes. 2:4, Mt. 24:15], the Temple Mount, quite likely on the site of the ancient Temple. Then he is soon after destroyed by the coming of Jesus. He cannot be the False Prophet.

 

 

William,

 

2 Thess is speaking of the coming world leader known as the false prophet. Chapter 2 gives us 12 verses of explanations and verse 3, as I supplied for you, calls him that man of sin & the son of perdition in the same breath .. and yet you still dispute it as though I had made it up & that I haven't supplied evidence for my explanation?

 

So the above scripture proved that accusation as wrong for those two titles pertaining to one man.

 

As for the third title, "the little horn"..

 

It was proved to you before that the little horn is the false prophet .. I was amongst a few others who supplied scriptural information and you just disappeared from the debate of which you were consistently involved until that information was provided? hmmm .. maybe you lost interest and didn't see it?

 

Nevertheless, I do see why you can not see it .. it is your belief in "pre trib rapture" .. this is why you can not see that wicked man for who he is in my opinion .. pre trib rapture doctrine really does undo the prophecies on this subject and divides one subject into two .. that is the problem I am discerning. 

 

Pre trib rapture was introduced by men as an interpretation much later on & never taught by the Lord .. so the burden of proof is not on us who do not accept that doctrine, but on those who do preach it. 

 

Thus debating this subject will go nowhere, the debate is really to do with pre trib rapture .. and when one holds that belief, it is very very hard to make them let go, because those who hold that belief dearly want it to be true because deep down in the recesses of their hearts, the thought of suffering for our Lord offends them .. and the answer is always the same .. "Why" they say, why would the Lord let the "church" suffer?

 

But, "Blessed is he who is not offended in Me".

 

And that is the core truth of this pre trib matter and I have heard it thousands of times .. not saying you do this, but I have witnessed many "pre tribbers" that do say it.

 

Thank you William.   

 

Hi,

Gotta chime in here.

It looks like you are saying the false prophet is identified in 2 Thess 2. Many of us have always thought this is the anitchrist, or beast. But I think there are two verses in 2 Thess 2 that prove beyond doubt this person is not the false prophet. First,

2 Thess 2:4

 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

His actions in the above verse have been used consistently in scripture to describe the beast. The false prophet is never described doing the things in the above verse. i.e. Rev 13:5-6

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Clearly the same actions. The person doing this is the first beast out of the sea. There are TWO beasts in Rev 13, not one, with different attributes so they are not the same. Now the other verse. 2 Thess 2:9

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Now Rev 13 tells us there are 2 beasts. One out of the sea and the other out of the earth. The second beast only has the same powers as the first beast. i.e., Rev 13:12

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

We can't say that just because 2 Thess 2:9 records this man coming with signs and lying wonders that he is the second beast, or false prophet, as the first beast has the same powers. Logically, there has to be another, greater than the second beast. The second beast causes the earth to worship the first beast. Why? Because the first beast is the power and the second beast is the tool. Also, the first beast is the one who exalts himself and commits blasphemy where the second beast, false prophet, deceives the world into worshiping the first beast. Read Rev 13:11-18

 Now lets look at the little horn.

Dan 7

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 8:11

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

There is enough imagery in the above verses to conclude unequivocally the little horn is the same as the first beast from Rev 13.

To remain consistent anytime we see this endtime prophecy describing a man speaking great words against the most High God, or exalting himself above God, etc, it has to be the same person. So, the little horn, the man of sin, the son of perdition(two phrases describing the same person), the first beast out of the sea, and the beast whose deadly head would was healed, are all the same person. The beast. The Antichrist. Not the false prophet.

 

 

Hi Diaste,

 

Though I would agree with you that the 1st beast imagery of Rev 13 does indeed contain the little horn within It's description and would likewise agree that the little horn is also the man of sin referred to in 2nd Thessalonians, I would not however agree that this makes the 1st beast an individual as you surmised nor that the little horn & the man of sin of 2nd Thess is some other figure rather than the false prophet himself. 

 

I would again point out that the 1st beast has 7 heads & 10 horns & another little horn rising up amongst them (as you included within the 1st beast explanation of Rev 13 whom I also agree is included therein) .. and seeing that the 10 horns are representing 10 individual kings and the little horn is representing another individual king, we can safely conclude that what we are dealing with here is clearly an overall generalization of an empire & her kings .. as I pointed out previously.

 

Not only that, but all these kings together are contained within just one of this 1st beasts heads .. again, 10 kings plus another king does not equal 1 king (Antichrist) but instead equals 11 kings .. this is clearly describing a grouping (10 +1 individual horns = 11 overall horns) whose 11 horns are being represented together in one visual descriptive of a particular head from imagery of a beast which has 7 heads total ..

 

Thus how you conclude that this 1st beast of Rev 13 stands for just one individual only is something I can not agree to as an accurate observation .. pointing out again that this conclusion not only totally ignores those other 10 horns (kings) contained together within the same descriptive .. but it also ignores the other 6 heads & their meanings which heads are all likewise together found on that same 7 headed beast. 

 

So until you can prove that this 1st beast of Rev 13 is an individual by explaining away the other 10 individuals within the same descriptive & likewise explain away the presence of the other 6 heads also found within this 1st beasts descriptive, then the onus of proof is upon the interpretation you espouse and not on the model I described .. not just yet anyway. 

 

Therefore Diaste, I was wondering if you still stand by your interpretation .. or .. not?

 

God bless.

[WilliamL]

 

At the Exodus, YHWH came first in a pillar of cloud and fire; then in Presence, speaking personally to all the people from Mount Sinai; and much later as a warrior, to fight all the kings assembled together against Joshua and Israel. YHWH did not come three separate times: this was all one continuous coming.

 

The same will occur when the Lord comes in the Latter Days: one continuous coming, manifested over time and in different ways. Those who say that the Lord will only come as a warrior to fight at Armageddon totally misunderstand that, once again, that is only the last manifestation of his coming, which will have already begun much, much earlier.

 

 

I have heard about this "continuous coming" for decades. Never seen any scripture relating to this.

 

 

Revelation 6:12-17 says that after the 6th Seal is opened, there are great heavenly and earthly cataclysms, followed by the people of the earth hiding themselves from the sight of the Face of God and the Lamb, "For the great day of his wrath came/is come..." The verb is in the aorist tense: aorist means without (a-) time/horizon (-oristos). What this indicates in the context is "past or present and continuing action." That is, the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord begins or has just begun at this point, and will continue for some extended period of time. English has no tense equivalent, which is why it is so hard to translate: in English, it should literally read, "...the great day of his wrath is/has come and continues..."

 

This is exactly what occurred when God came at the Exodus, as noted above. God's Presence initially came with the pillar of cloud and fire, and continued to accompany Israel in various manifestations for the 40 years of the wilderness sojourn, and afterward during the conquest of Canaan. The Book of Revelation chapters 4-19 are the account of the events that will occur during the whole period of the Presence in the Latter Days. It is ludicrous to presume that when the men of earth hide themselves from the glory of the Lord at his coming, for example, that this will be the very same day when the kings of the earth are also going out to fight against him.

 

This was an excellent explanation until you said some contradictory things. 

How can chapters 4-19 be the events of the 'presence' when you say below the continuing presence begins at the sixth seal? Certainly chapters 4-6 are chronological and we see Jesus in Heaven, and not on the earth, in chapter 5. The beginning of the presence of the Lord begins on earth at the time of the signs in heaven described in Rev 6, Rev 16 and in Matt 24 so it would seem the 'presence' of the Lord begins much later than chapter 4. And then you said that only chapters 4-19 are the continuing presence of the Lord when clearly Jesus is present in the City of God in the last chapters.

 

I answered this three days ago, but the post got lost. The week before, the site was down. Try, try again...

 

Good points, some misunderstanding. The Presence-with-Judgment of the Lord will first take place in the heavenly realm of the elohim, apparently preceding Rev. 4-5:

 

Ps. 82:1 God [Elohim] stands in the congregation of El [God];

He judges among [the] elohim [gods].

 

Is 24:21 It shall come to pass in that day

That the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones,

And on the earth the kings of the earth.

 

A judgment of the gods likewise commenced the LORD's Presence-with-Judgment during the time of the Exodus:

 

Ex. 12:12 ‘For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

 

Num. 33:4 For the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn, whom the LORD had killed among them. Also on their gods the LORD had executed judgments.

 

So the Presence-with-Judgment begins in the heavens, but only those in heaven will see it. That judgment will be timeless, yet still somehow before the earthly judgment. (Don't ask me to explain that!)

 

The earthly Presence-with-Judgment begins at the 6th Seal, which will be the first time men on earth will be aware of God's Judgment (with the possible exception of the elect of the elect who are allowed to see heavenly things, like Isaiah did in Isaiah 6).

 

As far as the Presence being manifested in Rev. 21-22, that is a later and separate one, not continuous with the one we will experience, which was the one on which my post was commenting.

[Diaste]

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Diaste,

 

Though I would agree with you that the 1st beast imagery of Rev 13 does indeed contain the little horn within It's description and would likewise agree that the little horn is also the man of sin referred to in 2nd Thessalonians, I would not however agree that this makes the 1st beast an individual as you surmised nor that the little horn & the man of sin of 2nd Thess is some other figure rather than the false prophet himself. 

 

I would again point out that the 1st beast has 7 heads & 10 horns & another little horn rising up amongst them (as you included within the 1st beast explanation of Rev 13 whom I also agree is included therein) .. and seeing that the 10 horns are representing 10 individual kings and the little horn is representing another individual king, we can safely conclude that what we are dealing with here is clearly an overall generalization of an empire & her kings .. as I pointed out previously.

 

Not only that, but all these kings together are contained within just one of this 1st beasts heads .. again, 10 kings plus another king does not equal 1 king (Antichrist) but instead equals 11 kings .. this is clearly describing a grouping (10 +1 individual horns = 11 overall horns) whose 11 horns are being represented together in one visual descriptive of a particular head from imagery of a beast which has 7 heads total ..

 

Thus how you conclude that this 1st beast of Rev 13 stands for just one individual only is something I can not agree to as an accurate observation .. pointing out again that this conclusion not only totally ignores those other 10 horns (kings) contained together within the same descriptive .. but it also ignores the other 6 heads & their meanings which heads are all likewise together found on that same 7 headed beast. 

 

So until you can prove that this 1st beast of Rev 13 is an individual by explaining away the other 10 individuals within the same descriptive & likewise explain away the presence of the other 6 heads also found within this 1st beasts descriptive, then the onus of proof is upon the interpretation you espouse and not on the model I described .. not just yet anyway. 

 

Therefore Diaste, I was wondering if you still stand by your interpretation .. or .. not?

 

God bless.

 

Ok, so I'm not sure what happened when I came to the forum yesterday. This topic was archived. Must have been a glitch in my system or something.

Anyway...

While I agree an overview of an empire is presented in the imagery of the first beast there is more to consider in the description.

It's completely logical to conclude the beast is an individual from Rev 13:3 forward. I agree the description in Rev 13:1-2 is of a corporate beast. But once one of the heads is wounded and brought back to life we are seeing a person. The following observations prove this.

1) One of the heads was wounded and brought back to life. If this was an empire that died and was brought back to life, then all the heads, or the entire beast, would have died.

2) The world worshiped the beast of the deadly head wound. Are there any examples in history where people worshiped an empire? People worship the man at the head of the empire. This head that was wounded must therefore be a person.

3) He has a mouth speaking great things. This is characteristic of a person.

4) Scripture uses personal pronouns to describe this beast. 8 times in 6 verses this wounded head is referred to as a person, a man.

5) Just because we see a corporation, it does not follow that corporation lives of itself. We are being shown the empire the beast forms; it's history and configuration. This is why the heads and horns are on the beast. The beast(person) is the driving force forming the last empire(corporate) from the remains of the previous empires represented by the animals in the beast,the same ones as the beasts in Daniel.

I looked and looked for some scripture relating to your following quote. I didn't find any. I also don't see a logical progression leading to your conclusion below.

 

Not only that, but all these kings together are contained within just one of this 1st beasts heads .. again, 10 kings plus another king does not equal 1 king (Antichrist) but instead equals 11 kings .. this is clearly describing a grouping (10 +1 individual horns = 11 overall horns) whose 11 horns are being represented together in one visual descriptive of a particular head from imagery of a beast which has 7 heads total ..

 

Scripture simply records this beast has 7 heads and 10 horns. Rev 13, nor Rev 17, are explicit in the configuration of the heads or the horns of the beast. Perhaps it looks like a hydra. Maybe 6 heads come out of one head. Maybe the beast has one neck terminating in 7 heads. Maybe the horns form a spiky row down it's back, or they cluster at the end of tail. Perhaps the horns are contained all on one head, but could just as easily be dispersed across all 7 heads. In any case I cannot see a justification for concluding a particular arrangement of heads and horns, which makes a dogmatic position of head and horn configuration problematic.

It's logical to conclude that while the beast out of the sea is a corporate entity, it's also made up of individuals as you noted. From Rev 17 we see the 7 heads are 7 kings, with and 8th following, and the 10 horns are 10 kings, who have not received a kingdom yet, but have power with the beast. Since the description of the Rev 13 and 17 beasts are close to identical we must conclude we are being shown different attributes of the same corporate entity of individuals. In both chapters we see the corporate dissected into individual parts for better examination. Point being, while there is group acting in concert and forming a cadre, it does not come to life of itself. It's driven by the power and ambition of individuals; which we see in the dragon, the head that was wounded, the 7 kings of ideology, and 10 kings empowered by the wounded head or, the 8th of the 7.

 

Thus how you conclude that this 1st beast of Rev 13 stands for just one individual only is something I can not agree to as an accurate observation .. pointing out again that this conclusion not only totally ignores those other 10 horns (kings) contained together within the same descriptive .. but it also ignores the other 6 heads & their meanings which heads are all likewise together found on that same 7 headed beast. 

 

So until you can prove that this 1st beast of Rev 13 is an individual by explaining away the other 10 individuals within the same descriptive & likewise explain away the presence of the other 6 heads also found within this 1st beasts descriptive, then the onus of proof is upon the interpretation you espouse and not on the model I described .. not just yet anyway. 

 

 I don't have to explain away facts to prove theories. We, as students of prophecy, should never do that. We should always adjust our thinking to the facts. The facts we have to work with are the words of prophecy. All the words are important as they lead us to the concepts which are built from the facts the words convey. 

Harmonizing all the facts is the goal. If we cannot harmonize every verse or passage of a topic then we should never form a conclusion. 

It's simple really. Each head is an individual and each horn is an individual. One head can therefore be wounded, an individual, and come back to life, and not be considered the corporate. Rev 17 obviously proves this as scripture says, one of the heads was wounded, that is, one of the kings, not the entire group of 7 kings. And as I said before, an empire is know by it's leader. Driven by the leader. Configured by the leader. To think that a corporate entity simply pops into existence and acts on it's own is to ignore the evidence of the make up of every corporation that has ever existed.