why do you try to avoid sin? -- a discussion

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

Out of obedience to Christ's teachings. 

 

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide I his love.  John 15:10

 

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I commanded you.  John 15:14

 

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.  And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:  but the Son abideth ever.  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.  John 8:34-36

 

By the way, in addition to being punished by our sins, we are also punished for our sins. 

 

...My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him.  for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are bastards, and not sons.  Hebrews 12:5b-8 

 

The word chastening in that passage means disciplinary correction.  God punishes us for our sins, just as a parent punishes his child when he or she disobeys.  I understand that sin can bring bad things upon us in the natural as well.  Cheating can break up a marriage.  Fornication can lead to STDs.  Stealing can lead to jail.  I get that, but God himself will punish his children when they sin. 

 

@ Cog, you should try to live right, as God would have you to do so, but you cannot be saved simply by choosing to abstain from sin.  If you are still feeling lost, and you are still feeling condemned because of your past sins, here is what you need to do.  Go find a quiet place to pray.  Confess your sins to Jesus.  Tell him how you are feeling lost, and how you sincerely desire to be saved and have a relationship with him.  Ask him to come into your heart and save your soul, and promise to live for him from this day forward.  Then just do your best, and if you mess up from time to time, confess those sins.  Don't carry them around with you, but confess them when they come to your attention, and allow Jesus' blood to wash you clean. 

 

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  1 John 1:8,9

 

We have all messed up at times in our lives Cog.  You are definitely not alone.  At the same time, the question is why do we try not to sin?  To me, it is about simple obedience to Christ.  It is also about not doing things to create a new wall of separation between myself and God.  That wall was torn down when I accepted Christ, and all of my past sins were washed away.  At that time, I was granted access to the throne of God, as I was made clean in his sight.  Why would I want to commit new sins, and add new stains to my clean garments? 

 

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.  Whoseover committeth sin transgresseth also the law:  for sin is the transgression of the law.  And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.  Whosoever abideth in him sinnneth not:  whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.  Little children, let no man deceive you:  he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.  For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:  and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:  whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.  1 John 3:3-10

 

If I obey Christ and abstain from sin, he tells me I am his friend.  If I keep his commandments, I abide in his love.  If I don't keep his commandments, I am a servant of sin, and a servant doesn't abide in the house forever.  If I sin, I haven't seen Christ or known him.  If I sin, I am of the devil.  I don't want to be of the devil.  It comes down to obedience. 

By the way, in addition to being punished by our sins, we are also punished for our sins. 

 

Then why did Jesus die for us?

 

I gave you scripture that proves that we are chastised (punished) for our sins.  You just made a statement of fact with nothing to back it up.  Do I really have to explain the plan of salvation to you?  When Adam sinned by eating of the forbidden fruit, it created a separation between man and God.  There had to be a method of restoring us to right relations with the Father, so he sent his Son Jesus to pay the penalty for our sins.  The wages of sin is death, so Jesus died for our sins, not his own,  When we accept him as our Lord and Savior, his death pays the penalty for our past sins.  It doesn't guarantee that we will never suffer consequences for future sins.  As a matter of fact, scripture says just the opposite.  It states that God chastises disobedient children.  Are you going to deny the scriptures? 

 

God's chastisement or correction is not just for sin, it is how he trains us, and matures us. He is not punishing us as the very scripture you quote does not say that. It says he is disciplining us out of love and to make us partakers of his Holiness. Sure there are times when he will chasten us because of sins, but we all are chastened by the Lord, regardless if we sin or not. It is his way of bringing us to a point where he wants us. Scripture does not describe this as "Punishment". 

 

On topic, we avoid sin because God has given us new natures. We still wrestle with the devil, and our own flesh at times, but our desire is to please God. Not only that but, we have people who are looking to us as lights. We are the only Christ they will see. We are to be children of light, and show forth God's glory to the world around us. It is a huge responsibility.

 

If God doesn't punish us for our sins, what do you say to Ananias and Saphira?  How did striking them dead act as a correction to them?  Why would God chasten us if we do nothing wrong?  What parent would do that?  Our kids are behaving so we just decide to place a hardship on them for no reason?  I wouldn't do that to my own child, and you say God would do that to us?  The word translated to chastisement means disciplinary correction.  It also means instructions and nurture.  If it is a form of discipline, how can you discipline someone who has done nothing wrong? 

[Guest Butero]

 

In general, is this discussion being driven by the heart or the mind? And, what is the relative importance of these components?

 

I posted the thread to encourage folks to look at their relationship with the Lord. Im pleased that we are on the same page, out of a love of the Lord. Unfortunately Ive seen people who try to live a Christian life out of fear of hell and not out of love of the Lord.

 

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:  Fear God, and keep his commandments:  for this is the whole duty of man.  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be bad.  Ecc 12:13,14

 

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.  Philippians 2:12

 

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast if from thee:  for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.  And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee:  for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.  Matthew 5:29,30

[Guest Butero]

 

Good question Fez.  If you go to the Old Testament, I can show you where God states he put leprosy on people.  I can show you in the New Testament where God struck King Herod with an illness that killed him for not giving glory to God.  Based on that, I would have to conclude that it does happen in some instances, but for the most part, I don't think God is the cause of those things.  I think in most instances, when we sin, the hedge of protections is removed and it opens the door for the devil to attack us.  Remember in the Old Testament, how Israel's enemy wanted Balaam to curse the children of Israel, and he told the King he couldn't because they weren't guilty of sin?  Once they did sin, the plagues came.  In one instance in the New Testament, Jesus healed a man, but warned him to go and sin no more, so something worse wouldn't come upon him.  I don't think I can rule out God doing things like that, based on actual cases in scripture I have read, but I don't blame God for every sickness that we suffer, and every bad thing that happens in our lives, neither do I go around thinking that if I make the smallest mis-step, I must have done something wrong.  There is that one story where a man was born blind, and Jesus said nobody sinned to cause this to happen.  Thanks for explaining why you asked.  That makes sense to me now.

If you go to the Old Testament, I can show you where God states he put leprosy on people.  I can show you in the New Testament where God struck King Herod with an illness that killed him for not giving glory to God.

 

Were they believers?

Jesus healed a man, but warned him to go and sin no more, so something worse wouldn't come upon him. 

 

Could that man's actions in sinning have made him that way? I don't think Jesus was issuing a threat. How do we know Jesus was not warning him to stop doing what was harming him physically? We don't.

 

I am happy we sorted this out, because it is an age old question is it not? One believers have asked each other countless times.

 

I will say that God's discipline mostly always hurts, and feels like punishment... 

 

I believe this man's sins did cause the sickness to come upon him, and I believe Jesus was just warning him that further sins could lead to God's hedge of protection being lifted where he could be struck with something worse.  Look at Ananias and Saphira.  God struck them both dead for lying.  I have often heard ministers say that God is not up there with a big hammer waiting to strike someone dead when they sin, but he did just that to them.  I don't think you can make absolute assumptions about how God will deal with our sins.  I don't think his normal method of punishing us is striking us dead, but he has done it.  I know he placed sickness on people.  He struck one King down with a problem with his feet.  Again, I think that most of the time, it is the devil that attacks us, but our sins allow him the liberty to do it. 

 

Have we really sorted this out?  If I go by the Bible, and actual stories in scripture, God has struck people with anything from sickness to death for their sins.  At the same time, the devil has attacked people too, and sometimes, we just suffer because sin is in the world.  I suppose the only conclusion I can come to is you can't place God in a box when it comes to such things. 

[Guest]

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

 

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:17-19

 

~

 

I believe this man's sins did cause the sickness to come upon him, and I believe Jesus was just warning him that further sins could lead to God's hedge of protection being lifted where he could be struck with something worse.  Look at Ananias and Saphira.  God struck them both dead for lying.  I have often heard ministers say that God is not up there with a big hammer waiting to strike someone dead when they sin, but he did just that to them.  I don't think you can make absolute assumptions about how God will deal with our sins.  I don't think his normal method of punishing us is striking us dead, but he has done it.  I know he placed sickness on people.  He struck one King down with a problem with his feet.  Again, I think that most of the time, it is the devil that attacks us, but our sins allow him the liberty to do it. 

 

Have we really sorted this out?  If I go by the Bible, and actual stories in scripture, God has struck people with anything from sickness to death for their sins.  At the same time, the devil has attacked people too, and sometimes, we just suffer because sin is in the world.  I suppose the only conclusion I can come to is you can't place God in a box when it comes to such things. 

 

 

Because

 

He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.
He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate.
He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.
He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

 

I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.
He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.
He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.
And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity.

 

And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:

Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.

My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me. Lamentations 3:10-20

 

Of Love

 

This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentations 3:21-23

 

We

 

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Matthew 9:13

 

Live

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

[KPaulG]

Only one reason: To please Him...

If there's any direct benefit FOR ME personally, it's inconsequential! I don't sin because I want to go to heaven; I don't sin to get Him to love me more; I don't sin because Scripture tells me not to. All of those things are FREE gifts that He's already given to me -- regardless of whether I sin or not -- but because I believe.

I try very hard not to fall into sin (because as a human being, I was born a sinner and always will be) just because THAT is one of the crowns that can thrown at His feet to please Him!

(This is my very first post. Am I doing it properly?! :-) )

It's pleasing to Him that you try to avoid sin to please Him.

 

Welcome..

[Littlelambseativy]

is there an issue of looking at the word "fear" in a different manner? To fear God is to be in "awe" of Him, not to be afraid. We are under the blood of Jesus and it all depends on the state of ones heart with the Lord. In looking at Saffira and her husband they lied to the people and to the Lord...that is why we are admonished not to vow unless we can fulfill our commitment. The other thing in so doing were they really true followers of Jesus. If so the would they have acted differently.it all comes down to the relationship one has with Jesus and the Father. God punished them for lying to Him. Would a loving Father truly severely beat or maime his child? I say no., neither would God if one is truly His. I think free will is being taken out of the response. We all make decisions and if the end result is bad do we say God punished us or did we bring it on ourselves? Just because we are His does not remove our wrong choices or the consequences we pay.

[Guest Butero]

In the instance where the word fear is used in Philippeans 2:12, it is from the Greek word phobos, and it means alarm or fright:  be afraid, exceedingly, fear, terror.  It doesn't mean to be in awe.  I am not one of those people that looks at someone who is sick and thinks God is punishing them.  That is not always the case.  Sickness and death entered the world with Adam.  It can just be the natural result of sin.  It can be demonic activity attacking someone.  It can be a situation where God is going to heal the individual, so their sickness is for his glory.  Then there are stories recorded in the Bible where God actually struck someone with sickness and even death.  Just knowing God has done that and can do it again would bring fear, not that he is waiting to get you for the smallest mistake, but he could.  We should be in awe of God, but we should also fear (phobos) God. 

[Littlelambseativy]

I agree with all you said ...except for the 'Phobos' . I had a healthy respect for my father and yes as a child knew I would be punished if I did wrong but to be afraid of him....I never was...nor can I be of my Heavenly Father but respect and be in awe of Him as I never thought to be of my own father...yes. We should never be in awe of anyone earthly....that is reserved for God alone ..in my estimation.

[Guest Butero]

I agree with all you said ...except for the 'Phobos' . I had a healthy respect for my father and yes as a child knew I would be punished if I did wrong but to be afraid of him....I never was...nor can I be of my Heavenly Father but respect and be in awe of Him as I never thought to be of my own father...yes. We should never be in awe of anyone earthly....that is reserved for God alone ..in my estimation.

But phobos is the word that was used in the scripture.  Where does your disagreement lie?  Are you saying you disagree with what is written in Philippeans 2:12, or that it isn't possible for you to do it? 

[Guest]

In the instance where the word fear is used in Philippians 2:12, it is from the Greek word phobos, and it means alarm or fright:  be afraid, exceedingly, fear, terror.  It doesn't mean to be in awe.  I am not one of those people that looks at someone who is sick and thinks God is punishing them.  That is not always the case.  Sickness and death entered the world with Adam.  It can just be the natural result of sin.  It can be demonic activity attacking someone.  It can be a situation where God is going to heal the individual, so their sickness is for his glory.  Then there are stories recorded in the Bible where God actually struck someone with sickness and even death.  Just knowing God has done that and can do it again would bring fear, not that he is waiting to get you for the smallest mistake, but he could.  We should be in awe of God, but we should also fear (phobos) God. 

 

 

Jesus

 

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

 

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. Daniel 7:13-15

 

Is Big

 

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips,

 

and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips:

 

for mine eyes have seen the King,

 

the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 6:5

 

And

 

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Psalms 23:1-3

 

Comforting

 

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:18