The Heavenly Places

[alien224]

Very interesting thank you.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for your very detailed reply. Much good info there & I appreciated the different Greek words for heaven in your other reply. You have done a lot of study on this & I can quite understand your searching for the three words to fit into a model.

So my question was `Now God`s throne & the angelic hosts were obviously elsewhere before these areas (Atmosphere & Celestial heavens) were created. What do you say concerning where they are?
 

Where is God’s Throne? We are told several things:

Where can one go where God is NOT present?! NOWHERE! So, pinpoint for me where this “heaven” is and where His throne is!

There’s no localized place called “Heaven.” There’s no dimension called “Heaven.” The verses that talk about “heaven”; that is; “shaamaayim” or “ouranoi” or "the skies,” are verses that say or imply that God cannot be confined to ANY place!

I believe other such passages are also about the Son of God through whom the Father will reign until such time as the last enemy is finally subdued.

Then, at that time, Yeshua` shall hand over the Kingdom to His Father so that God is the ultimate Ruler of this earth.

The verses that talk about His throne are either verses that are speaking prophetically about Yeshua`s throne in His Kingdom OR they are talking about a dais, that is, a royal box found within the New Jerusalem.

So let`s see what we can agree on –

OVER ALL: `One God & Father of all who is over all & through all & in all. ` (Eph. 4: 6)
THE NEW JERUSALEM: `The throne of God & of the Lamb` in the New Jerusalem. (Rev. 22: 1)
OVER THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH: `The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord & of His Christ,..` (Rev. 11: 15) Christ`s throne over the nations.

Are we agreeing so far? Marilyn.




 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for your very detailed reply. Much good info there & I appreciated the different Greek words for heaven in your other reply. You have done a lot of study on this & I can quite understand your searching for the three words to fit into a model.

So my question was `Now God`s throne & the angelic hosts were obviously elsewhere before these areas (Atmosphere & Celestial heavens) were created. What do you say concerning where they are?
 

Where is God’s Throne? We are told several things:

Where can one go where God is NOT present?! NOWHERE! So, pinpoint for me where this “heaven” is and where His throne is!

There’s no localized place called “Heaven.” There’s no dimension called “Heaven.” The verses that talk about “heaven”; that is; “shaamaayim” or “ouranoi” or "the skies,” are verses that say or imply that God cannot be confined to ANY place!

I believe other such passages are also about the Son of God through whom the Father will reign until such time as the last enemy is finally subdued.

Then, at that time, Yeshua` shall hand over the Kingdom to His Father so that God is the ultimate Ruler of this earth.

The verses that talk about His throne are either verses that are speaking prophetically about Yeshua`s throne in His Kingdom OR they are talking about a dais, that is, a royal box found within the New Jerusalem.

So let`s see what we can agree on –

OVER ALL: `One God & Father of all who is over all & through all & in all. ` (Eph. 4: 6)
THE NEW JERUSALEM: `The throne of God & of the Lamb` in the New Jerusalem. (Rev. 22: 1)
OVER THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH: `The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord & of His Christ,..` (Rev. 11: 15) Christ`s throne over the nations.

Are we agreeing so far? Marilyn.




 

 

Almost. First, one must be very careful in the quotation of Scripture. Ephesians 4:6 actually says, “and in YOU all.” The Textus Receptus is careful to include the word “humin,” translated as “you,” and even when one doesn’t include the word, the ending on “pasin” (translated as “all”) has the same case agreement as the word it modifies, which would be “humin,” even when it doesn’t appear!

 

It’s a subtle difference, but this additional word forces the meaning to be directed to the recipients of the epistle, not to all the believers in the world throughout time! He was specifically addressing the believers at Ephesus in his statement “and in YOU all.” It is not “and in all” believers!

 

The point is this: Just because this verse is like 1 Corinthians 15:28 in the use of multiple uses of “all,” that fact alone does NOT mean that they are identical in thought! These two verses are NOT synonymous, nor are they related!

 

Ephesians 4:4-6

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

KJV

 

1 Corinthians 15:28

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

 

 

These two passages are NOT talking about the same thing! Each one of these verses is context-specific! There’s a GREAT difference between God being “over all” and God being “all!"

 

A word-by-word investigation in each of these passages would produce a RICH understanding of what is truly being said. For instance the “hope of your calling” is NOT some vague “hope about your vocation” or a “hope about your ‘salvation’" (as most understand the word ‘salvation’); it’s the assurance/confidence/anticipation for our calling back to life in the future at the Resurrection! Should you die before the return of Yeshua`, you will hear a gentle but firm voice saying, “Marilyn, it’s time to wake up!” THAT is your “calling!"

 

What I am detecting/feeling is that you believe in the “NOW” of the Kingdom. I believe that the Kingdom will not only be quite literal, but is in the FUTURE! Revelation 11:15 has not yet occurred. Therefore, its present tense is not applicable to our time; it will be applicable WHEN Yeshua` has returned.

 

Furthermore, the Kingdom is NOT in some “heaven”; it will be here on this earth, specifically, in Israel, both in the future Millennium and in the New Earth following the Millennium. 

 

Another often-misunderstood word is the word “glory.” The Greek word is “doxa” and refers to whatever makes someone or something STAND OUT, like white against a black background! It’s talking about what makes someone or something very APPARENT! When the Scriptures say “then shall we appear with Him in glory,” it is NOT talking about our appearance with Him in a PLACE! It’s talking about our ability to GLOW as Yeshua` glows in God’s presence!

 

I could be wrong about what I am sensing; so, if I’m wrong, please tell me.

[Marilyn C]

So let`s see what we can agree on –

OVER ALL: `One God & Father of all who is over all & through all & in all. ` (Eph. 4: 6)

THE NEW JERUSALEM: `The throne of God & of the Lamb` in the New Jerusalem. (Rev. 22: 1)

OVER THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH: `The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord & of His Christ,..` (Rev. 11: 15) Christ`s throne over the nations.

Are we agreeing so far? Marilyn.

Almost. First, one must be very careful in the quotation of Scripture. Ephesians 4:6 actually says, “and in YOU all.” The Textus Receptus is careful to include the word “humin,” translated as “you,” and even when one doesn’t include the word, the ending on “pasin” (translated as “all”) has the same case agreement as the word it modifies, which would be “humin,” even when it doesn’t appear!

It’s a subtle difference, but this additional word forces the meaning to be directed to the recipients of the epistle, not to all the believers in the world throughout time! He was specifically addressing the believers at Ephesus in his statement “and in YOU all.” It is not “and in all” believers!

Hi Retrobyter,

I am appreciating this discussion with you. Now I am glad you pointed out my mistake. I was using my NAS & not my NKJ. And when I was writing it I did have a check on that, but didn`t follow it up. So thank you for the correction.

 

The point is this: Just because this verse is like 1 Corinthians 15:28 in the use of multiple uses of “all,” that fact alone does NOT mean that they are identical in thought! These two verses are NOT synonymous, nor are they related!

Ephesians 4:4-6

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

KJV

1 Corinthians 15:28

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

These two passages are NOT talking about the same thing! Each one of these verses is context-specific! There’s a GREAT difference between God being “over all” and God being “all!"

Very interesting, thank you, Retro.

 

A word-by-word investigation in each of these passages would produce a RICH understanding of what is truly being said. For instance the “hope of your calling” is NOT some vague “hope about your vocation” or a “hope about your ‘salvation’" (as most understand the word ‘salvation’); it’s the assurance/confidence/anticipation for our calling back to life in the future at the Resurrection! Should you die before the return of Yeshua`, you will hear a gentle but firm voice saying, “Marilyn, it’s time to wake up!” THAT is your “calling!"

That will be great to hear, if I die before the Lord comes. However that is not how I see our `calling.` I see that the Ekklesia (called out ones) in the wilderness, are Israel & the Ekklesia (called out ones) in the Body of Christ, as two different callings. That is why I believe Paul encouraged us, the Body of Christ to do as he was doing –

`I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.` (Phil. 3: 14)

 

What I am detecting/feeling is that you believe in the “NOW” of the Kingdom. I believe that the Kingdom will not only be quite literal, but is in the FUTURE! Revelation 11:15 has not yet occurred. Therefore, its present tense is not applicable to our time; it will be applicable WHEN Yeshua` has returned.

Furthermore, the Kingdom is NOT in some “heaven”; it will be here on this earth, specifically, in Israel, both in the future Millennium and in the New Earth following the Millennium.

No Retro, I do not believe in Kingdom Now. That is Dominionist teaching isn`t it, saying we have been given dominion now to rule & reign. So that is something we don`t have to work through. I`m not sure how you came to think that. Anyway I only drew out those points as to some things I could see in your comments that we seemed to agree on. And it`s good to get clarification as really we don`t fully know all of each other`s beliefs. However I`m sure that as we progress we`ll cover much ground, as you see like I do, that this topic really about covers everything.

 

Another often-misunderstood word is the word “glory.” The Greek word is “doxa” and refers to whatever makes someone or something STAND OUT, like white against a black background! It’s talking about what makes someone or something very APPARENT! When the Scriptures say “then shall we appear with Him in glory,” it is NOT talking about our appearance with Him in a PLACE! It’s talking about our ability to GLOW as Yeshua` glows in God’s presence!

I could be wrong about what I am sensing; so, if I’m wrong, please tell me.

That sounds great to me, Retro. I believe it will be the `divine qualities,` (2 Peter 1: 4) of Jesus within us that will `glow.`

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Furthermore, the Kingdom is NOT in some “heaven”; it will be here on this earth, specifically, in Israel, both in the future Millennium and in the New Earth following the Millennium.

Hi Retrobyter,

I thought this needed some discussion. This word `kingdom` is a bit like `heaven` in that it is used in God`s word in a variety of settings.

OVER ALL.

`The Lord has established His throne in heaven, & His kingdom rules over all.` (Ps. 103: 19)

Kingdom – Heb. `malkuyah,` - a rule, a dominion, empire, kingdom, realm, reign, royal.

The meaning here I see as including angels, authorities, people – all realms.

ON EARTH.

`And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed;…` (Dan. 2: 44)

Kingdom – Heb. `malkuw,` corresponding to `malkuyah,` dominion, kingdom, kingly realm, reign.

This is the kingdom (rule of God) that Israel was looking for, as promised. That is the kingdom rule that Jesus spoke about to the people of Israel, (in Matthew, `Christ the King` aspect). Jesus used the words `Kingdom of Heaven,` I believe, referring to this passage from Daniel. `the God of heaven will set up a kingdom,` - `the kingdom of heaven,` the rule of the God of heaven on earth.

There are other specific areas that I would like to discuss, concerning God`s rule over them, but will wait till I hear from you as to what I have written.

Marilyn.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

 

Furthermore, the Kingdom is NOT in some “heaven”; it will be here on this earth, specifically, in Israel, both in the future Millennium and in the New Earth following the Millennium.

Hi Retrobyter,

I thought this needed some discussion. This word `kingdom` is a bit like `heaven` in that it is used in God`s word in a variety of settings.

OVER ALL.

`The Lord has established His throne in heaven, & His kingdom rules over all.` (Ps. 103: 19)
Kingdom – Heb. `malkuyah,` - a rule, a dominion, empire, kingdom, realm, reign, royal.

The meaning here I see as including angels, authorities, people – all realms.

ON EARTH.

`And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed;…` (Dan. 2: 44)
Kingdom – Heb. `malkuw,` corresponding to `malkuyah,` dominion, kingdom, kingly realm, reign.

This is the kingdom (rule of God) that Israel was looking for, as promised. That is the kingdom rule that Jesus spoke about to the people of Israel, (in Matthew, `Christ the King` aspect). Jesus used the words `Kingdom of Heaven,` I believe, referring to this passage from Daniel. `the God of heaven will set up a kingdom,` - `the kingdom of heaven,` the rule of the God of heaven on earth.

There are other specific areas that I would like to discuss, concerning God`s rule over them, but will wait till I hear from you as to what I have written.

Marilyn.

 

Let’s look a little closer at this verse:

 

T-hillaah (Mizmowr) 103:19

19 YHWH bashaamayim heekhiyn kic’ow uwmalkhuwtow bakol maashaalaah:

JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

 

19 YHWH = 19 YHWH/The_LORD

bashaamayim = in-the-skies

heekhiyn = He-has-erected

kic’ow = His-covered/canopied-[throne]

uwmalkhuwtow = and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion

bakol = in-the-all

maashaalaah: = rules:

 

19 YHWH/The_LORD in-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion in-the-all rules:

 

Again, the challenge is the translation of the word “bashaamayim.” The “b-“ prefix meaning “in” and the patach vowel sound “ah” as in “father,” for the definite article, gives us the full translation of “in-the-skies.” However, the word “bakol” also has the same prefix, “b-“ prefix meaning “in” and the patach vowel sound “ah” as in “father,” gives us technically the same full translation of “in-the-all.” Now, one has to make a decision: does one translate the “b-“ as “over” in one place more than in the other? OR, does one translate them both as “in?” OR, does one translated them both as “over?"

 

Add to this the additional meaning of the “b-“ prefix, namely “with,” and we compound the problem of translation that much more (NINE possibilities in English translation)!

 

19 YHWH/The_LORD in-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] 

and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion in-the-all rules:

19 YHWH/The_LORD over-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] 

and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion in-the-all rules:

19 YHWH/The_LORD with-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] 

and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion in-the-all rules:

19 YHWH/The_LORD in-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] 

and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion over-the-all rules:

19 YHWH/The_LORD over-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] 

and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion over-the-all rules:

19 YHWH/The_LORD with-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] 

 

and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion over-the-all rules:

19 YHWH/The_LORD in-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] 

 

and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion with-the-all rules:

19 YHWH/The_LORD over-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] 

and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion with-the-all rules:

19 YHWH/The_LORD with-the-skies He-has-erected His-covered/canopied-[throne] 

and-His-Kingdom/rule/dominion with-the-all rules:

 

Of course, the MAIN interpretation for the “b-“ prefix is “in.” So, which one did the author of this psalm intend to be understood in Hebrew? Well, Shlomoh (Solomon), David’s son, was the one who used the phrase “shmeey hashaamayim” the most, and David was the one who wrote this psalm. We also know that David taught his sons and all Israel through the words of his psalms:

 

Psalm 19:1-14

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

KJV

 

Psalm 139:1-24

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.

1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

KJV

 

He TAUGHT Shlomoh that “shmeey hashaamayim” was not able to contain Eloheenuw (our God) YHWH!

 

The Theocratic Kingdom (which J. Dwight Pentecost talks about in his book Things To Come) is indeed what we see in the OT. That God intended for His Kingdom to be all of Israel is clear in ...

(1) His rescue of the children of Israel from Egypt,

(2) His revelation of His fire and His voice to them when He established His Torah on HaHar Sinai,

(3) His liberation of most of His Land under Yehowshu`ah (Joshua) and

(4) the establishment of His rulership over them, first through His priests, then through His judges, and finally through His kings who bowed to Him as their Over-King.

 

Then, however, because of Israel’s long-standing idolatry, God punished His nation of Israel in the captivities of Asshur, of Bavel and Persia.

 

Finally, after some of them returned to the Land, He provided them with His Choice for King - His Mashiyach - His Messiah, Yeshua`. REMEMBER: He was called “the King of the Jews” at both His birth and at His death! Although the elders of Yhudah failed to make Him their King, as their ancestors had done for David, killing Yeshua` on the cross, and burying Him, and having the Roman governor set his seal upon the tomb, instead, God the Father, RESURRECTED His Son back to life, and took Him up out of their reach.

 

THIS is the meaning of the following verses:

 

Ephesians 1:1-23

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`):

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places (epouranioi = the places above-the-sky) in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved (Yeshua`).

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ (the Messiah), both which are in heaven (ouranos = the sky), and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ (the Messiah).

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus (the Master Yeshua`), and love unto all the saints,

16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ (the Messiah), when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places (epouranioi = the places above-the-sky),

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church (the called-out [gathering]),

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

KJV

 

Finally, I believe this “church” to be the same one described in Acts:

 

Acts 7:37-40

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

KJV

 

The “church” was never meant to be anything different than the “children of Israel” who wandered 40 years in the wilderness. HOWEVER, the epistle to the Ephesians continues:

 

Ephesians 2:1-22

1 And you (Ephesians) hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (the Messiah), (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places (epouranioi = the places above-the-sky) in Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua`):

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua`).

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ (without a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the Messiah).

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (you Ephesians), and to them that were nigh (the children of Israel).

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

KJV

 

That’s enough for tonight.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

I did appreciate reading the Hebrew of those scriptures. It surely does open up the meanings to us. Thankyou for all that important detail.

Now could you explain your comment here, as it comes over as God had an `oops,` - He planned one thing, it didn`t work out so He went to plan `B.` As we know God is omniscient, then that is not possible. Thus I`m not understanding your comment.
 

The “church” was never meant to be anything different than the “children of Israel” who wandered 40 years in the wilderness.

Marilyn.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

I did appreciate reading the Hebrew of those scriptures. It surely does open up the meanings to us. Thankyou for all that important detail.

Now could you explain your comment here, as it comes over as God had an `oops,` - He planned one thing, it didn`t work out so He went to plan `B.` As we know God is omniscient, then that is not possible. Thus I`m not understanding your comment.
 

The “church” was never meant to be anything different than the “children of Israel” who wandered 40 years in the wilderness.

Marilyn.

 

The solution is simple: Gentile Christians are a SUBSET of the “church in the wilderness” a.k.a. the “children of Israel.” It’s not that they were an afterthought; rather, they were INTENDED to be grafted into the “church” while the Jews today are dormant, awaiting their awakening just prior to the return of the Messiah. The Gentile believers have become part of the Mishpachah! Part of the Family!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

Now I understand your belief on the `Ekklesia,` a bit more. I would like to discuss this further but first I want to ask you some questions. I would like to gain an understanding of what you believe of this scripture you posted recently. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)
 

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he (Yeshua`) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Who do you think are Christ`s enemies?
What specifically is `all rule & all authority & power?` That is, `Who has these and where are these positions held at present?`

Marilyn.

 

PS. I`m not expecting you to do all the work, Retro, but am researching also & looking forward to a good discussion on this.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

Now I understand your belief on the `Ekklesia,` a bit more. I would like to discuss this further but first I want to ask you some questions. I would like to gain an understanding of what you believe of this scripture you posted recently.
 

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he (Yeshua`) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Who do you think are Christ`s enemies?
What specifically is `all rule & all authority & power?` That is, `Who has these and where are these positions held at present?`

Marilyn.

 

Christ’s enemies - the Messiah’s enemies - are ANYONE who touches “the apple (pupil) of God's eye,” “His inheritance!” 

 

Deuteronomy 32:8-10

8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

9 For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

KJV

 

Thus, anyone who is anti-Semitic is His enemy. Anyone who is against His people is His enemy, and His people include the Gentiles who believe that Yeshua` is the Messiah (Jesus is the Christ) of God.

 

This is what Yochanan (John) taught us:

 

1 John 2:18-25

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction (an anointing) from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

KJV

 

1 John 4:2-3

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is NOT of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

KJV

 

1 John 5:1-5

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

KJV

 

2 John 5-7

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

KJV

 

So, let’s look at the Greek of 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

 

Pros Korinthious A 15:20-28

20 Nuni de Christos egeegertai ek nekroon, aparchee toon kekoimeemenoon egeneto.

21 Epeidee gar di’ anthroopou thanatos, kai di’ anthroopou anastasis nekroon:

22 Hoosper gar en too Adam pantes apothneeskousin, houtoos kai en too Christoo pantes zoo-opoieetheesontai.

23 Hekastos de en too idioo tagmati: aparchee Christos, epeita hoi tou Christou en tee parousia autou,

24 eita to telos, hotan paradidoo teen basileian too Theoo kai Patri, hotan katargeesee pasan archeen kai pasan exousian kai dunamin.

25 Dei gar auton basileuein achri hou thee pantas tous echthrous hupo tous podas autou.

26 Eschatos echthros katargeitai ho thanatos;

27 panta gar hupetaxen hupo tous podas autou. Hotan de eipee hoti panta hupotetaktai, deelon hoti ektos tou hupotaxantos autoo ta panta.

28 Hotan de hupotagee autoo ta panta, tote kai autos ho Huios hupotageesetai to hupotaxanti autoo ta panta, hina ee ho Theos ta panta en pasin.

UBS Greek New Testament

 

20 Nuni = 20 Now

de = but

Christos = Messiah

egeegertai = is-awakened/is-roused

ek = out-from

nekroon, = dead-[ones],

aparchee = first-fruits

toon = of-the

kekoimeemenoon = sleeping-[ones]/slumbering-[ones]/[ones]-put-to-sleep

egeneto. = is-become.

21 Epeidee = 21 Since

gar = for

di’ (dis) = through

anthroopou = a-man

thanatos, = death,

kai = and/also

di’ (dis) = through

anthroopou = a-man

anastasis = a-standing-up-again/a-resurrection

nekroon: = of-dead-[ones]:

22 Hoosper = 22 Like/As

gar = for

en = in

too = the

Adam = Adam

pantes = all/everyone

apothneeskousin, = dies-off,

houtoos = so/likewise

kai = and/also

en = in

too = the

Christoo = Messiah

pantes = all/everyone

zoo-opoieetheesontai. = shall-be-made-alive.

23 Hekastos = 23 Every-man

de = but

en = in

too = the

idioo = his-own

tagmati: = order:

aparchee = first-fruits

Christos, = Messiah,

epeita = afterward

hoi = the-[ones]

tou = of-the

Christou = Messiah

en = in

tee = the

parousia = revealing/coming

autou, = of-Him/His,

24 eita = 24 then

to = the

telos, = end,

hotan = when

paradidoo he-shall-have-turned-over

teen = the

basileian = kingdom

too = to-the

Theoo = God

kai = and

Patri, = Father,

hotan = when

katargeesee = he-shall-have-put down

pasan = all/every

archeen = chiefs/leaders

kai = and/also

pasan = all/every

exousian = right/privilege/authority

kai = and/also

dunamin. = force/power/ability.

25 Dei = 25 Necessary

gar = for

auton = he

basileuein = reign

achri = until/up-to

hou = at-which-place/where

thee = he-has-put

pantas = all

tous = of-the

echthrous = enemies

hupo = under/beneath

tous = the

podas = feet

autou. = of-Him/His.

26 Eschatos = 26 Last

echthros = enemy

katargeitai = rendered-useless/rendered-idle

ho = the

thanatos; = death;

27 panta = 27 all/every-[thing]

gar = for

hupetaxen = He-has-subordinated/subdued

hupo = under/beneath

tous = the

podas = feet

autou. = of-Him/His.

Hotan = When

de = but

eipee = he-says

hoti = that

panta = all/every-[thing]

hupotetaktai, = has-been-subordinated/subdued,

deelon = manifest/obvious

hoti = that

ektos = He-is-excluded

tou = the-[One]

hupotaxantos = who-did-subordinate/subdue

autoo = to-Him

ta = the

panta. = all/every-[thing].

28 Hotan = 28 When

de = but

hupotagee = shall-be-subordinated/subdued

autoo = to-Him

ta = the

panta, = all/every-[thing],

tote = then

kai = and/also

autos = Himself

ho = the

Huios = Son

hupotageesetai = will-subject-Himself/will-subdue-Himself

to = to-the-[One]

hupotaxanti = having-put-in-subjection/having-dubdued

autoo = to-Him

ta = the

panta, = all/every-[thing],

hina = so-that

ee = might-be

ho = the

Theos = God

ta = the

panta = all/every-[thing]

en = in

pasin. = to/for-all.

 

Therefore, it is “every chief or leader, every right or privilege, and force or power or ability.” I think that you are fishing for me to say that some of these chiefs or leaders or forces or powers are supernatural; however, based solely on these verses, I don’t think we need to go there.

 

Now, if you want me to include some of the “princes” (“sariym” or “heroes”) of different peoples, such as “the prince of the kingdom of Persia” (sar malkhuwt Paarac = hero-of kingdom/dominion/rule-of Persia) or “Miykhaa-Eel” (which means “Who is like God?”), then we can include them, as long as you realize that they, too, are earth-bound, although their existence seems to extend over many normal lifetimes, IF they are indeed single, separate individuals! (The term may actually refer to a position or a title that more than one person might hold down through time.)

 

Daniel 10:12-21

12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes (achad hasaariym haari’showniym = one-of the-heroes the-heads), came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,

19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

KJV

 

Daniel 11:45-12:4

11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

KJV

 

Jude 5-11

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels (aggeloi = messengers) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

KJV

 

Revelation 12:7-10

7 And there was war in heaven (ouranos = the sky): Michael and his angels (aggeloi = messengers) fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels (aggeloi = messengers),

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

KJV

 

Therefore, “Miykhaa-Eel” is said to have existed shortly some time after the death of Mosheh (Moses), at the time Daniel was praying in Persia, at the time of Herod the Great (the one who built his palace "between the seas in the glorious holy mountain,” or between Herod and the “time of trouble”), and will exist in the future when there is war in the sky and the Dragon and His messengers are grounded.

 

The exact interpretations of each of these passages is vague and therefore highly speculative. We REALLY need to be careful and flexible when delving into these interpretations.

 

What we definitely DO know are the words of Yeshua` Himself:

 

John 5:15-47

15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (RESURRECTION!)

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Nothing here says that this occurs at the same time.)

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.

42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

KJV

 

What is the job of a king? Not only does a king make decisions for his dominion and his people, but he is a JUDGE for his people! In Israel especially, such as in the time of Shlomoh (Solomon), the king was the “supreme court” of the Land! What he decided was final! In the eyes of the people and because of his great God-given wisdom, Shlomoh could do no wrong! The Kingdom prospered under his rule!

 

This is how it will be when Yeshua` the Messiah of God (God’s Choice for King) returns to take up the throne.

 

Yeshua` said,

 

Matthew 12:42

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

KJV

 

That’s my view.