The Heavenly Places

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

I have a few comments on your post.
 

There is no doubt that haSatan (Hebrew for “the Enemy”) is indeed one of our enemies; however, he is a “toothless lion” today. His largest weapon today is deception. He has no real power but what we give him. HaSatan would LIKE you and others to think he has some power. He would LIKE for people to recognize that 'he is the “yin” to God’s “yang,”’ but this is a FALSE concept according to the Scriptures!

Let`s look at the `power` Satan, (esp. for unbelievers).

...

2. Power over the whole world system.
`..the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (1 John 5: 19)
`…the devil ….showed Him(Christ) all the kingdoms of the world….”All these I will give you…` (Matt. 4” 8 & 9)

3. Power over Job & his family, (as God allowed)
`So the Lord said to Satan, “behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” (Job. 1: 12)

4. Power to test believers.
`For we do not wrestle against flesh & blood, but against principalities & powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

I would call that quite a lot of power, Retro. And `never under estimate the enemy.`

 

When we are talking about Yeshua`s Kingdom, the FIRST enemy that He will remove is haSatan! (Revelation 20:1-3.)

I also agree that Satan is the first enemy to be removed from the Lord`s kingdom, however that event happened way back in time. The Lord`s kingdom & seat of power is the throne of God & it was from there that Lucifer was cast down. Jesus told Pilate that His kingdom was not of (from) this world.

 

`Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight, …..` (John. 18: 36)

`How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! …..` (Isa. 14: 12)

The prophet Ezekiel also describes this. You said it was just about `a man,` & `not an ounce of evidence to that theory` that it is Satan. But Retro, if you read the scriptures carefully you will see it is about Lucifer & his fall from the Lord`s kingdom, around the throne of God.

1. He was created perfect. `You were the seal of perfection…You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created..` (Ez. 28: 12 & 15) (`For all have sinned…` Rom. 3: 23)
2. He was placed on God`s Holy mountain. `You were on the holy mountain of God.` (v. 14)
3. He was in Eden. `You were in Eden, the garden of God;…` (v. 13)

When Lucifer was cast out of the kingdom of God around His throne, he usurped the principalities & powers region near the earth, & took control eventually of the kingdoms of the world. Thus in Rev. 20: 1 – 3 as you noted, Satan is cast out of the earth & the Lord sets up His kingdom rule on the earth as promised. Note however that God`s great kingdom is in all realms & not just on earth.

Lucifer, is now called Satan, the devil, the serpent, the dragon, in relation to his activities.

`So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil & Satan, who deceives, the whole world;….` (Rev. 12: 9)

Interesting information you gave Retro, that Satan is haSatan, which is Hebrew for enemy. Thanks for that. Now he has been given other names also & maybe you would have relevant info on that too. I`ll give what I know as well.

Satan – the Deluder, (`I will ascend,…` x5. Isa. 14: 13 & 14) Pride.
Serpent – the Deceiver, (lies to Eve. Gen. 3: 4 & 5)
Devil – the Destroyer, ( `rob, kill, destroy` John 10: 10)
Dragon – the Devourer, (`..to devour her child..` Rev. 12: 4)

 

 

The Lord Jesus Christ overcame Satan, the serpent, the devil, the dragon in all his wickedness.

Jesus did the Father`s will – humility.
Jesus obeyed the Father, speaking truth.
Jesus destroyed the works of the devil.
Jesus overcame by His blood sacrifice.

Thanks be to the Lord for His wonderful victory over the enemy.

Take your time Retro, & don`t think you have to answer quickly. I am patient. Marilyn.

 

The next thing you said that haSatan has was the ...

 

2. Power over the whole world system.

`..the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (1 John 5: 19)
`…the devil ….showed Him(Christ) all the kingdoms of the world….”All these I will give you…` (Matt. 4: 8 & 9)

 

Whatever you were using for a version on 1 John 5:19 is GREATLY paraphrasing what the Greek actually says:

 

Iooannou A 5:19

19 Oidamen hoti ek tou Theou esmen kai ho kosmos holos en too poneeroo keitai.

UBS Greek New Testament

 

19 Oidamen =  19 We-know

hoti = that

ek = out-from

tou = of-the

Theou = God

esmen = we-are

kai = and/also

ho = the

kosmos = world-system

holos = whole

en = in

too = the

poneeroo = wickedness

keitai. = lies.

 

Wickedness, ever since Adam and Chavah (Eve) sinned, comes EASILY for us human beings. Flip Wilson used to get a laugh from the one liner, “The devil made me do it!” But, the truth is that we don’t NEED the devil for us to do wickedness! We are quite efficient in that area to do it on our own! People blame the devil for things they’ve done that THEY THEMSELVES have invented!

 

Therefore, for the "whole world-system to lie in wickedness" may in fact not need the devil at all! It was presumptuous for the translator of that version to ascribe it to “the sway of the wicked one,” the devil or haSatan. He does have a hand in it, but it is WE who CHOOSE to sin!

 

Now, regarding Matthew 4:8-9, again, just because haSatan could SHOW Yeshua` all the kingdoms of the world-system in a short time doesn’t mean that he actually had the power or the right to GIVE Him all those kingdoms! This was essentially the same test - the SHORTCUT test - at which Adam and Chavah failed! Adam and Chavah were told they didn’t have to keep eating from every tree to find the tree of life; they could jump to the end of the test and take of the one tree they were denied, implying that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil WAS the very tree of life and that by eating from it, they would become "as gods, knowing good and evil!” (Genesis 3:5)

 

Yeshua`, being the Messiah of God, would fulfill the prophecies about the Messiah and would "reign over all the earth.” (Zechariah 14:9) HaSatan was trying to get Him to take a shortcut and become the King over all those nations too early! All He would have to do is bow down (worship) before haSatan! Fortunately for us, Yeshua` was not duped into taking the "easy path” (which would have resulted in Him sinning against His Father)!

 

Remember: HaSatan "is a liar and the father of it (the source of lying)!” (John 8:44) Don’t be duped by ANYTHING that HE might claim!

 

Then, you said that he had the ...

 

3. Power over Job & his family, (as God allowed)

`So the Lord said to Satan, “behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” (Job. 1: 12)

 

and the ...

4. Power to test believers.
`For we do not wrestle against flesh & blood, but against principalities & powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

 

Regarding Iyov (Job), it is important for one to understand that haSatan does NOT have that power very often! This was a special INDULGENCE on God’s part to TEST Iyov. It is NOT the norm! Not everyone is subjected to these extreme tests. Most people can’t even pass the simplest of tests when it comes to integrity with God!

 

Regarding Ephesians 6:12, again, let’s go to the Greek:

 

Pros Efesious 6:10-12

10 Tou loipou, endunamousthe en Kurioo kai en too kratei tees ischuos autou.

11 Endusasthe teen panoplian tou Theou pros to dunasthai humas steenai pros tas methodeias tou diabolou;

12 hoti ouk estin heemin hee palee pros haima kai sarka, alla pros tas archas pros tas exousias, pros tous kosmokratoras tou skotous toutou, pros ta pneumatika tees poneerias en tois epouraniois.

UBS Greek New Testament

 

10 Tou = 10 Of-the

loipou, = remaining-time,

endunamousthe = (you)-be-strong

en = in

Kurioo = (the)-Lord

kai = and/also

en = in

too = the

kratei = vigor/dominion/strength

tees = of-the

ischuos = forcefulness

autou. = of-Him/His.

11 Endusasthe = 11 (You)-dress-with

teen = the

panoplian = panoply/whole-outfit

tou = of-the

Theou = God

pros = to/toward

to = the

dunasthai = can/may-be-able

humas = you-(plural)

steenai = to-stand

pros = to/toward

tas = the

methodeias = waylayings

tou = of-the

diabolou; = slanderer;

12 hoti = 12 because

ouk = not

estin = is

heemin = to-us

hee = the

palee = wrestling

pros = to/toward

haima = blood

kai = and/also

sarka, = flesh/meat,

alla = but

pros = to/toward

tas = the

archas = chiefs

pros = to/toward

tas = the

exousias, = (ones-with)-rights/privileges,

pros = to/toward

tous = the

kosmokratoras = world-rulers

tou = of-the

skotous = darkness

toutou, = this-one,

pros = to/toward

ta = the

pneumatika = “spiritual” (adjective - accusative case, neuter gender, plural number)

tees = the

poneerias = evils

en = in

tois = the

epouraniois. = (place)s-above/upon-the-sky.

 

10 Of-the remaining-time, (you)-be-strong in (the)-Lord and/also in the vigor/dominion/strength of-the forcefulness of-Him/His.

11 (You)-dress-with the panoply/whole-outfit of-the God to/toward the can/may-be-able you-(plural) to-stand to/toward the waylayings of-the slanderer;

12 because not is to-us the wrestling to/toward blood and/also flesh/meat, but to/toward the chiefs to/toward the (ones-with)-rights/privileges, to/toward the world-rulers of-the darkness this-one, to/toward the “spiritual” (adjective - accusative case, neuter gender, plural number) the evils in the (place)s-above-(or-upon)-the-sky.

 

10 Meanwhile, be strong in (the) Lord and in the vigor of His forcefulness.

11 Dress with the whole outfit of God toward you may be able to stand toward the waylaying of the slanderer;

12 because the wrestling is not to us toward blood and flesh, but toward the chiefs, toward the (ones with) authority, toward the world rulers of this darkness, toward the “spiritual" (an adjective referring to a "BLOWING WIND," as compared to a "breathing created-being”; see 1 Corinthians 15:42-49) evils in the (place)s above the sky.

 

This may not make any sense to you right now, but suffice it to say this: There’s a BIG difference between “heavenly places” and “placed above the sky.” Anything and everything “above the sky” includes all of space! “Heavenly places,” as frequently defined, usually refers to places within or slightly below (?) God’s “Heaven."

 

 

Now, I don’t "underestimate the Enemy," but on the other hand, neither do I give him credit he doesn’t deserve! The testing to which Iyov was subjected was PRIOR to the defeat the Enemy suffered at the cross of the Messiah! Since that point in history, the Enemy cannot truly touch Yeshua`s disciples! They now have the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) protecting them and guarding them, comforting them and sealing them against anything that he can SEEM to do. They are SEALED unto the day that their bodies are bought back from corruption!

 

Someone has said, “What’s he going to do, threaten me with ‘Heaven?’” While I don’t believe in “Heaven,” per se, I still believe in the RESURRECTION and in the MILLENNIUM and in the NEW EARTH AND SKY! What’s he going to do? Kill us? HA! HA! Big threat! He’s going to “threaten" me with a sooner Resurrection?! He’s going to “threaten" me with a new POWERFUL, LIFE-GIVING body like the body of the Messiah?! He’s going to “threaten” me with his OWN demise?! I don’t think so!

 

 

I’d like to end this discussion there, but I absolutely CANNOT allow the misinterpretation of John 18:36 to go unchallenged!

 

You said, “I also agree that Satan is the first enemy to be removed from the Lord`s kingdom, however that event happened way back in time. The Lord`s kingdom & seat of power is the throne of God & it was from there that Lucifer was cast down. Jesus told Pilate that His kingdom was not of (from) this world.”

 

No, that’s not quite accurate.

 

John 18:33-38

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?

34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

KJV

 

Now, let’s look at the Greek words used in verse 36: The word for “world” is the Greek word “kosmos.” The word refers to the world-SYSTEM of governing! He wasn’t saying that His Kingdom didn’t belong to this EARTH, which would have been the Greek word “gee,” spelled “gamma-eta,” and pronounced “gay"; He was saying that His Kingdom wasn’t LIKE other political, governmental systems! Instead, Yeshua` had already told His disciples,

 

Matthew 23:10-11

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

KJV

 

Other kingdoms have ambitious people who claw and scratch their way up the “ladder of success” and vie for power and control. They compete for position, and they make their way to the top by outdoing others and intrigue.

 

In Yeshua`s Kingdom, people gain prominence by being SLAVES to others, loving each other and preferring others to themselves! They WORK TOGETHER instead of competing! It’s COOPERATION, not COMPETITION! It’s not “you against me”; it’s “you and me against the evil in this world!” (That’s not “evil people,” btw; that’s “evil actions” and their consequences. God loves PEOPLE, even if He hates their sin! We, like Him, need to separate the people God loves from the evil they do that He hates.)

 

That’s it for now. We’ll talk about “haSatan” more next time (hopefully, tomorrow).

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

You said the version I was using `is greatly paraphrasing what the Greek actually says.` I was & am using `The New King James Version.` Now I do have a couple of points in relation to your post.

1. The kingdoms of the world. I do agree that Satan is a liar & when he said he could give Jesus the kingdoms of the world, then that was not true. We know from the Psalms that it is God who will give them to His Son.

`The Lord said to me, “You are My Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of Me, & I will give you the nations for your inheritance, & the ends of the earth for your possession.` (Ps. 2: 7 & 8)

And we know that will happen at the end of the tribulation.

`Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord & of His Christ, & He shall reign forever & ever.` (Rev. 11: 15)

So we are in agreement there, bro.


2. John 18: 36 `My Kingdom is not of this world.` I also agree with you in that Jesus is speaking of the manner of His kingdom (Gk. `basileia` - rule, `basileus` – foundation of power). And this rule, reign was of the regency of truth.

`Pilate said to him, (Jesus) “Are you a king then? Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, & for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.` (John 18: 37)

This rule (kingdom, foundation of power) we know is of God & is operational in the thronal area. We have been shown some wonderful glimpses of this in scripture.

`I watched till thrones were put in place. And the Ancient of days was seated; His garment was white as snow, & the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued & came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him….` (Dan. 7: 9 & 10)

We are also told that Lucifer, son of the morning, was the highest & most beautiful created being. He was the kingpriest of the angelic realm. The prophets Isaiah & Ezekiel tell us this. At first it seems they are talking of a human king but we know when we read further that they are talking of Lucifer. This is called the Law of Duplication or sometimes the Law of Double Reference. This we see in the Psalms – eg Ps. 22 when we see that it is about David`s experiences but virtually looking to another person, the Lord Jesus.

Lucifer had a throne (a king) & desired to ascend to the very heights of God & be like Him.

`I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High,…` (Isa. 14: 13 & 14)

`You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom & perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, & diamond, beryl, onyx & jasper, sapphire, turquoise & emerald with gold….` (Priest) (Ez. 28: 12 & 13)

Thus we see that Lucifer was a King, with a throne & a priest with a covering of jewels. But as we know his heart was lifted up because of his beauty & thus sinning he was cast from God`s holy `mountain,` the thronal area. He took with him a third of the angels.

Now that authority position has never been filled. No angel or man could be entrusted with such a high calling. But we do read that God the Father has made His Son a priest of a special kind, the order of Melchizedek.

`The Lord has sworn & will not relent, “You are a priest for ever according to the order of Melchizedek.` (Ps. 110: 4)

`For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God……king of righteousness….king of peace.` (Heb. 7: 1 & 2)

Thus we know that the Lord Jesus Christ, glorified & exalted far above all is the eternal King & High Priest ruling & reigning at the foundation of power in the thronal area. No angelic being will ever hold such a high position, only the Lord who has proved worthy –

`Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power & riches & wisdom, & strength & honour & glory & blessing.` (Rev. 5: 12)

Marilyn.


 

Edited April 29, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

You said the version I was using `is greatly paraphrasing what the Greek actually says.` I was & am using `The New King James Version.` Now I do have a couple of points in relation to your post.

1. The kingdoms of the world. I do agree that Satan is a liar & when he said he could give Jesus the kingdoms of the world, then that was not true. We know from the Psalms that it is God who will give them to His Son.

`The Lord said to me, “You are My Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of Me, & I will give you the nations for your inheritance, & the ends of the earth for your possession.` (Ps. 2: 7 & 8)

And we know that will happen at the end of the tribulation.

`Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord & of His Christ, & He shall reign forever & ever.` (Rev. 11: 15)

So we are in agreement there, bro.


2. John 18: 36 `My Kingdom is not of this world.` I also agree with you in that Jesus is speaking of the manner of His kingdom (Gk. `basileia` - rule, `basileus` – foundation of power). And this rule, reign was of the regency of truth.

`Pilate said to him, (Jesus) “Are you a king then? Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, & for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.` (John 18: 37)

This rule (kingdom, foundation of power) we know is of God & is operational in the thronal area. We have been shown some wonderful glimpses of this in scripture.

`I watched till thrones were put in place. And the Ancient of days was seated; His garment was white as snow, & the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued & came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him….` (Dan. 7: 9 & 10)

We are also told that Lucifer, son of the morning, was the highest & most beautiful created being. He was the kingpriest of the angelic realm. The prophets Isaiah & Ezekiel tell us this. At first it seems they are talking of a human king but we know when we read further that they are talking of Lucifer. This is called the Law of Duplication or sometimes the Law of Double Reference. This we see in the Psalms – eg Ps. 22 when we see that it is about David`s experiences but virtually looking to another person, the Lord Jesus.

Lucifer had a throne (a king) & desired to ascend to the very heights of God & be like Him.

`I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High,…` (Isa. 14: 13 & 14)

`You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom & perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, & diamond, beryl, onyx & jasper, sapphire, turquoise & emerald with gold….` (Priest) (Ez. 28: 12 & 13)

Thus we see that Lucifer was a King, with a throne & a priest with a covering of jewels. But as we know his heart was lifted up because of his beauty & thus sinning he was cast from God`s holy `mountain,` the thronal area. He took with him a third of the angels.

Now that authority position has never been filled. No angel or man could be entrusted with such a high calling. But we do read that God the Father has made His Son a priest of a special kind, the order of Melchizedek.

`The Lord has sworn & will not relent, “You are a priest for ever according to the order of Melchizedek.` (Ps. 110: 4)

`For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God……king of righteousness….king of peace.` (Heb. 7: 1 & 2)

Thus we know that the Lord Jesus Christ, glorified & exalted far above all is the eternal King & High Priest ruling & reigning at the foundation of power in the thronal area. No angelic being will ever hold such a high position, only the Lord who has proved worthy –

`Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power & riches & wisdom, & strength & honour & glory & blessing.` (Rev. 5: 12)

Marilyn.


 

 

Since you said that your version was the NKJV, I looked it up, and you’ve correctly quoted from that version:

 

1 John 5:19

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 

NKJV

 

and it is just as bad in the NIV:

 

1 John 5:18-20

19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 

NIV

 

It’s not your fault. It’s the fault of the translators. They’ve tried to explain something “better,” and ended up confusing the Scriptures. I stand by what I wrote. The translators of BOTH of these versions shown above have made the same mistakes!

 

19 Oidamen =  19 We-know

hoti = that

ek = out-from

tou = of-the

Theou = God

esmen = we-are

kai = and/also

ho = the

kosmos = world-system

holos = whole

en = in

too = the

poneeroo = wickedness

keitai. = lies.

 

19 We-know that out-from of-the God we-are and/also the world-system whole in the wickedness lies.

 

19 We know that we are out of God, and the whole world-system lies in the wickedness.

 

Here’s the KJV:

 

1 John 5:19

19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

KJV

 

As old as it is and as many faults as it may have (mainly because our English language has itself shifted over the last 400+ years), it is closer to the original text because the translators stuck to the nearly word-for-word translation method that has been abandoned by the newer translations in favor of translating thoughts and concepts over the words themselves. However, this newer method introduces a LOT of subjectivity on the part of the translator, introducing human error when the translator has the wrong idea of what is being conveyed!

 

I’m glad we’re in agreement on point 1 above. HaSatan would like to THINK that he has rulership over all the nations of the world, but it’s just not true!

 

Now, regarding point 2:

 

John 18:37-39

37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate.

Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

38 "What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him. 

NIV

 

John 18:37-38

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?"

Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

38 Pilate said to Him, "What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, "I find no fault in Him at all. 

NKJV

 

John 18:37-38

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

KJV

 

Do you see the difference between the KJV and the other versions? The NKJV is actually closer to the NIV than it is to the KJV! Let’s go to the Greek:

 

Kata Iooanneen 18:37-38

37 Eipen oun autoo ho Pilatos, “Oukoun basileus ei su?” Apekrithee ho Ieesous, “Su legeis hoti basileus eimi. Egoo eis touto gegenneemai kai eis touto eleelutha eis ton kosmon, hina martureesoo tee aleetheia; pas ho oon ek tees aleetheias akouei mou tees foonees.”

38 Legei autoo ho Pilatos, “Ti estin aleetheia?” Kai touto eipoon palin exeelthen pros tous Ioudaious kai legei autois, “Egoo oudemian heuriskoo en autoo aitian.”

 

37 Eipen = 37 Said

oun = therefore

autoo = to-Him

ho = the

Pilatos, = Pilate,

“Oukoun = “Then

basileus = a-king

ei = are

su?” = you?”

Apekrithee = Answered

ho = the

Ieesous, = Yeshua`/Jesus,

“Su = “You

legeis = say

hoti = that

basileus = a-king

eimi. = I-am.

Egoo = I

eis = into

touto = this-cause

gegenneemai = was-born

kai = and/also

eis = into

touto = this-cause

eleelutha = I-came

eis = into

ton = the

kosmon, = world-system,

hina = so-that

martureesoo = I-should-give-testimony/bear-witness/testify

tee = to-the

aleetheia; = truth;

pas = everyone

ho = the/that

oon = is

ek = out-from

tees = the

aleetheias = truth

akouei = listens

mou = of-me/my

tees = to-the

foonees.” =voice.”

38 Legei = 38 Said

autoo = to-Him

ho = the

Pilatos, = Pilate,

“Ti = “What

estin = is

aleetheia?” = truth?”

Kai = And/Also

touto = this-cause

eipoon = he-said

palin = again

exeelthen = he-went-outside

pros = to/toward

tous = the

Ioudaious = Yhudiym/Jews

kai = and/also

legei = said

autois, = to-them,

“Egoo = “I

oudemian = not-even-one

heuriskoo = find

en = in

autoo = Him

aitian.” = a-fault.”

 

37 Said therefore to-Him the Pilate, “Then a-king are you?”

Answered the Yeshua`/Jesus, “You say that a-king I-am. I into this-cause was-born and/also into this-cause I-came into the world-system, so-that I-should-give-testimony/bear-witness/testify to-the truth; everyone the/that is out-from the truth listens of-me/my to-the voice.”

38 Said to-Him the Pilate, “What is truth?”

And/Also this-cause he-said again he-went-outside to/toward the Yhudiym/Jews and/also said to-them, “I not-even-one find in Him a-fault.”

 

37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “Then you are a king?"

Yeshua`/Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. I was born into this cause and into this cause I came into the world-system, so that I should testify to the truth; everyone that is out of the truth listens to my voice."

38 Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?"

And he said this cause he said; he went outside again to the Yhudiym/Jews and said to them, “I find not even one fault in Him." 

 

So, which version is closer to the Greek? That is, which is closer to what the Greek actually SAYS rather than what the translators THINK it’s trying to say?

 

Now, with regard to the “thronal area,” you said, “This rule (kingdom, foundation of power) we know is of God & is operational in the thronal area. We have been shown some wonderful glimpses of this in scripture.” Actually, because of the warped and twisted way that we’ve been taught about these verses, you’ve been convinced of some VERY QUESTIONABLE theology! We call these passages “problem passages” or “ambiguous passages,” because their meanings are doubtful and perplexing. HOWEVER, I have learned AM LEARNING that the passages are not the problem nor are they ambiguous. It is WE who are looking at the passages from strange viewpoints - interpretations that were NEVER intended by the authors or by THE Author - it is WE who are the “problem” and uncertain!

 

For instance, when we read things in the Scriptures like ...

 

Jeremiah 4:23-25

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

KJV

 

If we understand “heavens” to be “God’s abode,” we get some pretty radical theories as to what this verse means! I’ve heard a theory that there used to be BIRD-MEN that lived in the gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 before the earth became “without form and void!” Of course, part of that theory is based on the fact that verse 23 bears a striking resemblance to Genesis 1:2, both in English and in Hebrew.

 

But, when we simply understand the "heavens” to be the “skies” and the “earth” to be the “land,” specifically the "Land of Israel," we don’t need the KNUCKLE-HEADED theories any more because it begins to make much better sense - an EASIER and more RATIONAL explanation for what we are reading can be found. And, when one investigates WHEN Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) prophesied, to WHOM he prophesied, and WHY he prophesied, it becomes that much clearer: Yirmeyahu, the “weeping prophet” because he also wrote “Lamentations,” wrote during and after the children of Israel were killed, taken captive, and carted off to far-away lands.

 

The devastation that the Babylonian armies caused in the Land of Israel was truly appalling and horrifying. So, Yirmeyahu was saying, “I looked at the Land, and it was ruined and empty of life! The skies were blackened by smoke, and they allowed no light from the sun! I looked at the mountains and they shimmered in the heat from the fires! All the hills seemed to waver! I looked, and - look! - there were no human beings left! Even the birds of the sky were flying away!"

 

Another example of such weird ideas can be found in the simple statement:

 

Leviticus 17:11a

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: ...

KJV

 

Some have suggested that the magical essence of what makes a human being alive is swimming around in the blood of an individual. Some alchemists of the Dark Ages, reading this verse, suggested that one might be able to extract the life-force from the life-blood drained from an animal and transfer that life-force to a sick person in an attempt to heal the person.

 

However, it wasn’t until 1840 and afterward that hemoglobin was discovered and learned to be a conveyor of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and now nitric oxide from and to the lungs, to and from every cell of the human body. The oxygen every cell needs is carried from the lungs and provided by the hemoglobin in the red corpuscles, and in exchange, the hemoglobin also removes the deadly carbon dioxide from those cells, porting it back to the lungs. In 1996, we learned that hemoglobin also conveys super nitric oxide and normal nitric oxide back and forth to control blood pressure in the vessels.

 

Couple this with a basic understanding of the words “nefesh” and “ruach” in Hebrew and the words “psuchee” and “pneuma” in Greek, and we get a much better understanding of what the “soul” and the “spirit” actually are. The words “ruach” and “pneuma” both mean a “forceful breath” or “wind.” The words “nefesh” and “psuchee” (using “ee” for an eta) both mean an “animated being” as “one that breathes.” So, when we read ...

 

Genesis 2:7

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

KJV

 

we get a better understanding of how Adam (and Chavah) were created. God, who is “spirit” (“ruach”), performed the first CPR on the lifeless body of Adam and the man BECAME a living, “animated being” as “one that breathes” on his own! The reason why I said this is to show you why I believe that the “spirit” is simply a person’s “breath” and the “soul” is simply a body that “breathes.” Therefore, the “soul” is the combination of the body and the “spirit,” just as a body that “breathes” is the combination of the body and the “breath!” Take the “breath” away, and the body ceases to be a body that “breathes.” Take the “spirit” away, and the body ceases to be a “soul!” This has SEVERAL implications:

 

The first is that if you read about a “soul,” it means that person’s body is ALIVE AND BREATHING!

 

Second, when a person “gives up the ghost” or “gives up his spirit,” he has literally "breathed his last breath.” The “spirit” or the “breath” goes back to God, who is a “Spirit" or a “Wind," but the body goes into the ground and decays; the “soul” ceases to exist (for the moment).

 

Third, that means that the person - who we were before we died - is not “floating around” either here or in some ethereal “Heaven.” The person is in the grave waiting for re-animation, that is, the RESURRECTION! Now, IF (and that’s a BIG “IF”) the words can have a secondary, figurative meaning, then it’s the “SPIRIT” that goes to be with God and the “SOUL” ceases to exist, since the “SOUL" would be the combination of the “SPIRIT” and the “BODY!"

 

If the words are to be taken in their normal, literal sense, then the “breath” - the “spirit” - simply dissipates on the “wind” and is indistinguishable from all the other molecules of air in the “wind.” So, where do we go when we die? How do we come back to life in the Resurrection? Well, I believe that the answer is simply in the PERFECT MEMORY of a LIVING GOD! He knows those who are His!

 

Psalm 139:15-17

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

KJV

 

Job 14:13-14

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

KJV

 

I’m about to go into all the verses that were taken supernaturally instead of just naturally to get this understanding you have of haSatan, but I’ve run myself out of time, and I’m tired. I’ll try to get back to it tomorrow.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,
 
Some interesting comparisons there & the Greek. Thank you.

 

Further on you said this concerning what I wrote.
 

 

Now, with regard to the “thronal area,” you said, “This rule (kingdom, foundation of power) we know is of God & is operational in the thronal area.

 

I did not mention the word `heavens` as I see your view but have chosen the words `thronal area,` as this is what we read, of this `invisible` (to us) realm. Can you name the area, realm, whatever, concerning the throne of God in your understanding?

 

`I watched till thrones were put in place & the Ancient of Days was seated....His throne.....`  (Dan. 7: 9)

 

`To him that overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame & sat down with my Father on His throne.`  (Rev. 3: 21)

 

`...behold, a throne set in heaven & one sat on the throne...` (Rev. 4: 2)

 

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions...` (Col. 1: 16)

 

Marilyn.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,
 
Some interesting comparisons there & the Greek. Thank you.

 

Further on you said this concerning what I wrote.
 

 

Now, with regard to the “thronal area,” you said, “This rule (kingdom, foundation of power) we know is of God & is operational in the thronal area.

 

I did not mention the word `heavens` as I see your view but have chosen the words `thronal area,` as this is what we read, of this `invisible` (to us) realm. Can you name the area, realm, whatever, concerning the throne of God in your understanding?

 

`I watched till thrones were put in place & the Ancient of Days was seated....His throne.....`  (Dan. 7: 9)

 

`To him that overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame & sat down with my Father on His throne.`  (Rev. 3: 21)

 

`...behold, a throne set in heaven & one sat on the throne...` (Rev. 4: 2)

 

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions...` (Col. 1: 16)

 

Marilyn.

 

Sure can! The "throne of God” (ho thronos tou Theou, literally, the dais of God, because it is more of a platform or luxury box at a stadium than a chair) is located on the top level of the city known as the New Jerusalem, currently located in space ... somewhere only God knows. It was built FOR His Representative - His Messiah - who still has a super physical body, and the Messiah, too, will have His own dais in Jerusalem, Israel, when He comes back to be Israel’s King. It will be a special honor indeed to be called up to His luxury box, far better than being invited to a luxury box at an American football stadium! It will be an even better honor to be seated in a position of rulership within that luxury box!

 

So, we have a luxury box in Jerusalem, Israel, during the Millennium when the Messiah as "Melekh Yisrael” (King of Israel) will reign and subdue His enemies, becoming "haMelekh Malakhiym" (the King of Kings), and then we will have a SECOND, GREATER luxury box in the New Jerusalem after it lands, centered at the old Jerusalem’s coordinates, after the Millennium, after the Great White Throne judgment, after the Fire, and after the re-creation of the New Earth. So high is this luxury box, that it will quite literally remain in outer space even when the city has landed, the city being 1,500 miles high!

 

I don’t need to go sticking it in some “invisible dimension” to be invisible to us; it merely has to be outside of our field of vision, even with the telescopes we have today! We can’t see EVERYTHING, especially the small things, as we go farther and farther out to space, even when they give off their own light! Besides, how do we know that what we are looking at is really "a small, red star?"

[Marilyn C]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

Hi Retrobyter,

Some interesting comparisons there & the Greek. Thank you.

Further on you said this concerning what I wrote.

Now, with regard to the “thronal area,” you said, “This rule (kingdom, foundation of power) we know is of God & is operational in the thronal area.

I did not mention the word `heavens` as I see your view but have chosen the words `thronal area,` as this is what we read, of this `invisible` (to us) realm. Can you name the area, realm, whatever, concerning the throne of God in your understanding?

`I watched till thrones were put in place & the Ancient of Days was seated....His throne.....` (Dan. 7: 9)

`To him that overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame & sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

`...behold, a throne set in heaven & one sat on the throne...` (Rev. 4: 2)

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions...` (Col. 1: 16)

Marilyn.

 

Sure can! The "throne of God” (ho thronos tou Theou, literally, the dais of God, because it is more of a platform or luxury box at a stadium than a chair) is located on the top level of the city known as the New Jerusalem, currently located in space ... somewhere only God knows. It was built FOR His Representative - His Messiah - who still has a super physical body, and the Messiah, too, will have His own dais in Jerusalem, Israel, when He comes back to be Israel’s King. It will be a special honor indeed to be called up to His luxury box, far better than being invited to a luxury box at an American football stadium! It will be an even better honor to be seated in a position of rulership within that luxury box!

So, we have a luxury box in Jerusalem, Israel, during the Millennium when the Messiah as "Melekh Yisrael” (King of Israel) will reign and subdue His enemies, becoming "haMelekh Malakhiym" (the King of Kings), and then we will have a SECOND, GREATER luxury box in the New Jerusalem after it lands, centered at the old Jerusalem’s coordinates, after the Millennium, after the Great White Throne judgment, after the Fire, and after the re-creation of the New Earth. So high is this luxury box, that it will quite literally remain in outer space even when the city has landed, the city being 1,500 miles high!

I don’t need to go sticking it in some “invisible dimension” to be invisible to us; it merely has to be outside of our field of vision, even with the telescopes we have today! We can’t see EVERYTHING, especially the small things, as we go farther and farther out to space, even when they give off their own light! Besides, how do we know that what we are looking at is really "a small, red star?"

 

Hi Retrobyter,

Can you then please tell me –

1. Where you think God`s throne was BEFORE the creation of the universe?

`In the beginning God created the heavens & the earth.` (Gen. 1: 1)

2. Where you think God`s throne will be AFTER the present universe is no more?

`Then I saw a great white throne & Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth & the heaven fled away. And there was no place found for them.` (Rev. 20: 11)

Thank you, Marilyn.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

 

Shalom, Marilyn C.

Hi Retrobyter,

Some interesting comparisons there & the Greek. Thank you.

Further on you said this concerning what I wrote.

Now, with regard to the “thronal area,” you said, “This rule (kingdom, foundation of power) we know is of God & is operational in the thronal area.

I did not mention the word `heavens` as I see your view but have chosen the words `thronal area,` as this is what we read, of this `invisible` (to us) realm. Can you name the area, realm, whatever, concerning the throne of God in your understanding?

`I watched till thrones were put in place & the Ancient of Days was seated....His throne.....` (Dan. 7: 9)

`To him that overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame & sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

`...behold, a throne set in heaven & one sat on the throne...` (Rev. 4: 2)

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions...` (Col. 1: 16)

Marilyn.

 

Sure can! The "throne of God” (ho thronos tou Theou, literally, the dais of God, because it is more of a platform or luxury box at a stadium than a chair) is located on the top level of the city known as the New Jerusalem, currently located in space ... somewhere only God knows. It was built FOR His Representative - His Messiah - who still has a super physical body, and the Messiah, too, will have His own dais in Jerusalem, Israel, when He comes back to be Israel’s King. It will be a special honor indeed to be called up to His luxury box, far better than being invited to a luxury box at an American football stadium! It will be an even better honor to be seated in a position of rulership within that luxury box!

So, we have a luxury box in Jerusalem, Israel, during the Millennium when the Messiah as "Melekh Yisrael” (King of Israel) will reign and subdue His enemies, becoming "haMelekh Malakhiym" (the King of Kings), and then we will have a SECOND, GREATER luxury box in the New Jerusalem after it lands, centered at the old Jerusalem’s coordinates, after the Millennium, after the Great White Throne judgment, after the Fire, and after the re-creation of the New Earth. So high is this luxury box, that it will quite literally remain in outer space even when the city has landed, the city being 1,500 miles high!

I don’t need to go sticking it in some “invisible dimension” to be invisible to us; it merely has to be outside of our field of vision, even with the telescopes we have today! We can’t see EVERYTHING, especially the small things, as we go farther and farther out to space, even when they give off their own light! Besides, how do we know that what we are looking at is really "a small, red star?"

 

Hi Retrobyter,

Can you then please tell me –

1. Where you think God`s throne was BEFORE the creation of the universe?
`In the beginning God created the heavens & the earth.` (Gen. 1: 1)

2. Where you think God`s throne will be AFTER the present universe is no more?
`Then I saw a great white throne & Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth & the heaven fled away. And there was no place found for them.` (Rev. 20: 11)

Thank you, Marilyn.

 

Sure. I don’t believe that God needed a throne before the creation of the universe. God just WAS!

 

"After the present universe is no more?” Whatever gave you the idea that it will cease to exist?! Revelation 20:11 is NOT talking about the “end of the universe” when it says that the earth and the heaven fled away. Remember: the earth is the DIRT! The heaven is the SKY; that is, the ATMOSPHERE, primarily the AIR which we breathe! Whatever happens to them by the face of Him who sits upon the Great White Throne, they RUSH away from that location! Since we are talking about BEFORE the re-creation of the earth, the New Earth, we are talking about the face of the Messiah, as God’s Representative King!

 

I believe this verse to be a restatement of 2 Peter 3:7-13:

 

2 Peter 3:7-13

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

 

The word translated “shall pass away” is the word “pareleusontai” which is a form of “parerchomai”:

 

NT:3928 parerchomai (par-er'-khom-ahee); from NT:3844 and NT:2064; to come near or aside, i.e. to approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (caus.) avert:

KJV - come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.

 

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

This definition is a word picture of what the word means: Think of the dirt and the air “coming near” or “coming aside”; then, think of them “approaching” or “arriving”; then, think of them “going by” and “going away!” These passages, both here in 2 Peter and in Revelation 20 are talking about the PHYSICAL components of the surface of our planet racing away to the other side of our planet by the explosive force of the face of the Messiah in His Judgment! The reason why there’s “no place for them” is that they’ve run to the opposite side of the planet and can’t go any farther!

 

That’s what both Peter and John saw.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

Some interesting thoughts there bro. Now you said -
 

I don’t believe that God needed a throne before the creation of the universe. God just WAS!

I hear what you are saying, that God is…….However had you considered between the time of God is….& when He created the universe, that He had already created the angelic host, myriads of them. Thus God`s authority, symbolized by the throne picture, was in operation then. So can you tell me where do you think God`s authority (throne)was, with the angelic host?

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

Some interesting thoughts there bro. Now you said -
 

I don’t believe that God needed a throne before the creation of the universe. God just WAS!

I hear what you are saying, that God is…….However had you considered between the time of God is….& when He created the universe, that He had already created the angelic host, myriads of them. Thus God`s authority, symbolized by the throne picture, was in operation then. So can you tell me where do you think God`s authority (throne)was, with the angelic host?

 

Marilyn.

 

This, too, is over-thinking the matter. The Scriptures say this:

 

Hebrews 1:13-14

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

KJV

 

These “angels (messengers)” are "ministering (serving; waiting) spirits (winds).” AND, they were created to be servants for those “who shall be heirs of salvation (heirs of the rescue)."

 

I don’t believe they existed before the Creation. I believe that they are CREATED beings sent to be messengers to and for US! Why would God need them otherwise?

 

As far as them being present at Creation, we can only find this:

 

Job 38:3-11

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

KJV

 

Most feel that these “morning stars” are the “supernatural messengers” known as “angels."

 

However, this is NOT a Creation passage; it is a FLOOD passage! After the cataclysm known as the “Flood” of Noach’s time, God THEN created clouds. They did not exist before the Flood! It had never rained before the Flood! The dew point (the temperature at which the water vapor will condense into water droplets and marks the bottom plane of the clouds) was too low for the ambient temperature. Clouds wouldn’t form in the atmosphere except for the mist that would go up during the day and water the plants.

 

Genesis 2:4-6

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

KJV

 

Genesis 7:11-8:3

7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;

2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

KJV

 

The "windows of heaven” literally, the “sluice gates of the sky,” were “opened" and the water vapor in the sky was able to condense, and it rained for the first time in the history of the earth. Water vapor is a gas; it is not like the tiny condensed water droplets that may be suspended in the air that we call a “mist” or a “cloud.” We couldn’t see through a thick cloud; but we can see quite well through water vapor, no matter how much if it is present.

 

It wasn’t until AFTER the Flood that God pronounced His promise:

 

Genesis 8:20-22

20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

KJV

 

Genesis 9:9-17

9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:

15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

KJV

 

So, it wasn’t until AFTER the Flood that God promised “neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.” Job 38:10-11 above mark the continental shelf. THAT is the point at which the large ocean waves, which are cyclical like a sine wave, are CLIPPED; so, THAT is where God’s promise is realized. The center of the cycle that makes the sine wave of the ocean waves is always at the water’s surface - at “sea level.” However, the top half of the wave can only be as big as the bottom half of the wave. If there’s not enough distance to accommodate the bottom half of the wave, the bottom half is shortened. And, if the bottom half of the wave cycle is shorter, then so must be the top half of the wave cycle. Thus, the continental shelf LIMITS the “proud waves” of the sea, and thereby sets "bars and doors" upon how far inland the sea can go.

 

Thus, all the evidence points to Job 38:3-11 being a Flood passage instead of a Creation passage.

 

SO, if the “morning stars” (possibly the “supernatural angels”) sang together at the laying of THIS foundation to the land, they did so AFTER the Flood. For them to be present AFTER the Flood does NOT require them to be present at the beginning of the Creation week; for them to be "created beings" suggests that they, too, were created some time DURING the Creation week, probably on the Fourth Day, since it was THEN that God created the “stars also."

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

I have never heard of your view before, so I have looked back over our discussion so I can get a summary of your view.

Is this what you think?

Beyond the Universe. (Just) God.

In the Universe –
- Celestial – God`s throne & the angelic host.
- Atmosphere – Satan & his demonic angels.

Marilyn.