Possible Turkey, Iran alliance - Ezekiel 38?

[Diaste]

 

 

Your argument actually backs my point ..

 

It is the Roman lineage of kings we must follow, you have shown another lineage which is not Roman related, whilst showing clear definitions that backed my point .. that is .. you have shown conquerors & the conquered

 

.. TWO ..

 

Meaning .. different ..

 

So which kings do we watch?

 

The kings of the legs of iron ..  or .. the Islamic kings that followed, whose kings are different kings and not the same kings as the legs of iron lineage?

 

Can you see what I am saying now Diaste?

 

Actually no. I cannot see what you are saying. How is it that Rome must be associated with the legs of the statue?

[Diaste]

Let's talk more about Dan 11 later. First, i really want to know more about the guy you call the false prophet. I think you mean the beast, or antichrist, and not the false prophet. We agree there are three evil personages that arise during the end of the age: the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet. I see the bible telling us that the beast is the leader of the last evil empire and the dragon is the power behind the empire. The false prophet is empowered by the dragon to cause the world to worship the beast. The false prophet isn't the leader, he's a tool used to force the people of the world to worship of the beast.

When i read the scripture and see a description of something, in this case a man, then anytime that man is described the same way it's the same man. For example:

Rev 13

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Daniel 7

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 8

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 11

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

All the verses above describe the same person, the beast, or antichrist. In fact I see only one place in scripture where the false prophet is mentioned and that's Revelation.

Rev 13

1 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This is the only place where I know he's described and he's very different from the beast. It's like the beast is the President and the false prophet is the Secretary of State. He represents the beast, but the beast is the one calling the shots. The false prophet is working for the beast and the dragon and is not a power on his own. 

Rev 13

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Not only does the false prophet cause the world to worship the beast, a king in his own right would not do that, he only has the power to do the miracles that impel the worship of the beast, in close proximity to the beast. No, the king of the north is someone different as the false prophet is closely aligned with, and subordinate to, the beast and the dragon.

 

I can't quite work out why you are concentrating on the kings between the north and the south?

The False prophet is "the king of the North".  Concentrate on him.  His roots go back to the beginning of the chapter.  I think it's worth looking at again.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2015 by Diaste

[Diaste]

I can't quite work out why you are concentrating on the kings between the north and the south?

The False prophet is "the king of the North".  Concentrate on him.  His roots go back to the beginning of the chapter.  I think it's worth looking at again.

 

So I can't figure out - where do the kings in between the North and South come into it?  It's talking about the King of the North who we've ascertained was Rome back then.  In the latter days, the King of the North will return to take Jerusalem again, so he's coming from the European Continent where Rome was..and we know that Rome is no more, but is joined with Europe.  The iron is still in there now, but it's not just the iron today, because it's mixed with clay (weaker nations)

 

I hope I am making sense?, because it has to all fit like a glove.

It's good that we are all trying to solve the puzzle.  If we put our heads together, as brothers and sisters, it can be solved. We are going to make mistakes along the way, all of us, so must keep backtracking and going back to the Word.

I don't know that much of history to be honest, just a little to get through.

Thank you for what you explained to me by the way, I appreciate you taking the time brother.  It keeps me on my toes.

 

Daniel 11 is a very long narrative that covers centuries spanning from 333 BC to the time of the end. Alexanders domain ended around 323 BC and we see from Daniel 11:40, " And at the time of the end..." ,  the chapter takes us right to the reign of the beast. Now I said in a earlier post that the willful king is neither the King of the North nor the King of the South but a king that is caught in the middle, between the two. I also said the Antigonus was the king of the North and Ptolemy was the king of the south. Antigonus was dead by 300 BC and Lysimachus became the ruler in the north after Seleucus took over the Mid-East and parts of Asia Minor, including Turkey, from the realm of Antigonus. So, by 300 BC we have Ptolemy ruling in the south, Lysimachus ruling in the north and Seleucus ruling the Near East all the way to the Mediterranean, including Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, etc. This means the Seleucid kingdom lies right between the King of the North and the King of the South. This is a matter of history and is spelled out in Daniel 11. It's interesting to read about the King of the North and the King of the South fighting it out in the history books. They read exactly like Daniel 11. Well, the King of the North loses here, Dan 11

 15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand.

16 But he that cometh against him( This is another person) shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.(Not the King of the North)

17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him.

19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.(Now the King of the North is dead)

After this we have a succession of people who "stand up in his estate". This does not mean that it's a person who was a successor to the king. It could be but it could also be a neighboring king who took over which is what history records occurred by 300 BC when Antigonus died. It could also be governors appointed by conquering kings. It seems more likely that after a military defeat suffered by the King of North in Dan 11:19 that another king took over and appointed satraps to rule the new territory. I think this is seen in the nasty and short lived rulers we see in Dan 11, another king took over who rules a domain that is right in between the Northern and Southern Kings.

Dan 11:40 proves this:

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

(Obviously this is the antichrist)

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him(Both the Northern and Southern kings fight against him) like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

There is a third player here that both North and South fight against. This third player is the beast as Dan 11:36-39 says. So even if I was to believe that the King of the North was Rome or Europe, which I do not, it's pretty clear that the beast does not come from the Northern Kingdom, wherever it is. The reason for the focus on this third player is because it's the beast, or antichrist. This is where he's coming from. If we assume that the King of the North and the King of the South still means the same thing at the end of the chapter as at the beginning then it's likely the Northern King is from Turkey and Asia Minor and the King of the South is Egypt, and both war against the Antichrist near the time of the end.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Diaste

[Serving]

 

 

 

Your argument actually backs my point ..

 

It is the Roman lineage of kings we must follow, you have shown another lineage which is not Roman related, whilst showing clear definitions that backed my point .. that is .. you have shown conquerors & the conquered

 

.. TWO ..

 

Meaning .. different ..

 

So which kings do we watch?

 

The kings of the legs of iron ..  or .. the Islamic kings that followed, whose kings are different kings and not the same kings as the legs of iron lineage?

 

Can you see what I am saying now Diaste?

 

Actually no. I cannot see what you are saying. How is it that Rome must be associated with the legs of the statue?

 

 

Revelation 17

 

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

One is = Rome = Legs of iron .. this is why Diaste.

 

Five are fallen:

 

1 Egypt

 

2 Assyria

 

3 Babylon - Head of gold

 

4 Medo Persia - Chest & Arms of Silver

 

5 Grecian - Belly of Bronze

 

And One is :

 

6 Roman - Legs of Iron.

 

One mountain / head / empire was ruling when this was revealed to John, hence "one is" ..  Christ was saying, "one king is ruling now John" .. and that can only be Rome .. there is no other it can be.

 

Thanks Diaste.

[Diaste]

 

 

 

 

Your argument actually backs my point ..

 

It is the Roman lineage of kings we must follow, you have shown another lineage which is not Roman related, whilst showing clear definitions that backed my point .. that is .. you have shown conquerors & the conquered

 

.. TWO ..

 

Meaning .. different ..

 

So which kings do we watch?

 

The kings of the legs of iron ..  or .. the Islamic kings that followed, whose kings are different kings and not the same kings as the legs of iron lineage?

 

Can you see what I am saying now Diaste?

 

Actually no. I cannot see what you are saying. How is it that Rome must be associated with the legs of the statue?

 

 

Revelation 17

 

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

One is = Rome = Legs of iron .. this is why Diaste.

 

Five are fallen:

 

1 Egypt

 

2 Assyria

 

3 Babylon - Head of gold

 

4 Medo Persia - Chest & Arms of Silver

 

5 Grecian - Belly of Bronze

 

And One is :

 

6 Roman - Legs of Iron.

 

One mountain / head / empire was ruling when this was revealed to John, hence "one is" ..  Christ was saying, "one king is ruling now John" .. and that can only be Rome .. there is no other it can be.

 

Thanks Diaste.

 

Ok. Couple things: Here you have Rome as the 6th or, 'one is'. In the statue there are only 4 kingdoms with the toes of iron and clay being an extension of the 4th.

How can Rome be 6th and 4th?

How is it there are only four kingdoms in the statue, Babylon, Persia, Greece and the Iron kingdom yet it seems you associate Egypt and Syria with the Statue Kingdoms as well. Where is the connection?

If the prophecy of Revelation is indeed a prophecy, How can some of it be fulfilled before it was given? The vision of the beast and the heads is future from John's day, the beast who is the eighth and is of the 7 and goes to perdition, is future; how can 'five are fallen" be the past?

Also, the prophecy is future according to Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

That context doesn't change so everything after Rev 4:1 must be hereafter John's day.

How does scripture connect all this?

[Last Daze]

 

First, i really want to know more about the guy you call the false prophet. I think you mean the beast, or antichrist, and not the false prophet. We agree there are three evil personages that arise during the end of the age: the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet.

 

This is how I see

 

The beast comes up out of the abyss.  The abyss is always used in the context of the supernatural and is a prison or holding place for evil spirit beings based on the few scriptures that reference it.

 

Based on Daniel 10 we know that these world kingdoms have a "prince" associated with them.  I see the beast from the sea (abyss) as one of those princes, a fallen angel that causes the final world kingdom to exercise dominion.

 

The false prophet is the mouthpiece given to the beast.  He is the son of perdition, the man of sin, the small horn turned big in Daniel 7....as I see it.

[Serving]

Hi Diaste,

 

 

Ok. Couple things: Here you have Rome as the 6th or, 'one is'. In the statue there are only 4 kingdoms with the toes of iron and clay being an extension of the 4th.

 

How can Rome be 6th and 4th?

 

Because Daniels statue does not cover all 7 empires, so where are the other 2 empires of the 7 headed beast?

 

Obviously the other 2 were before the statue vision, obvious because they can be no other place since no harlot system exists nor ever will again after Christ's 2nd coming.

 

Therefore a question arises, why did God exclude 2 empires from Daniels statue?

 

And the answer is .. and it is so very simple when realized .. is .. that the vision of the statue was for the future ..  from Daniels time onwards into the future.

 

How easy is that? .. no complicated doctrines to explain it, because God already did.

 

God revealed this at the very start of the statue descriptive, revealed through Daniel to the king of Babylon, all because king Neb wondered what would come after his kingdom !!

 

So this is not speculation nor private interpretation that Babylon was empire # 3 which makes Rome empire # 6 .. because as God revealed through Daniel .. the vision (statue) was only from Daniels time onwards.

 

So to get the other 2 empires is also simple .. just look for them in the world before king Nebs Babylon.

 

Thanks Diaste.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Serving

[Sister]

Ok. Couple things: Here you have Rome as the 6th or, 'one is'. In the statue there are only 4 kingdoms with the toes of iron and clay being an extension of the 4th.

How can Rome be 6th and 4th?

How is it there are only four kingdoms in the statue, Babylon, Persia, Greece and the Iron kingdom yet it seems you associate Egypt and Syria with the Statue Kingdoms as well. Where is the connection?

If the prophecy of Revelation is indeed a prophecy, How can some of it be fulfilled before it was given? The vision of the beast and the heads is future from John's day, the beast who is the eighth and is of the 7 and goes to perdition, is future; how can 'five are fallen" be the past?

 

 

Hi Diaste

 

I agree with Serving.  The kingdoms of Egypt and Medo-Persia were before Babylon.  When we come to the head of the statue, which is Babylon, this 3rd empire was ruling at the time... and the rest follow.

 

 

 

You asked how does this correspond to the beast in Revelation?

The beast in Rev coming out of the sea includes all the 7 kingdoms from beginning to end.

With the statue: The kingdom of the feet mixed with iron and clay rules for a much shorter time than Rome did, and when this kingdom comes close to it's end, we get to the 10 toes coming up out of this same kingdom, having the final say.

These ten toes correspond to the 10 horns and crowns on the last head (kingdom) of the beast in Rev 13.

 

We also know that this same end time kingdom which is the 7th kingdom, morphs into an 8th kingdom when the False prophet arises out of the ten.  We are not told this in the interpretation of the statue, but if we read further on in Daniel, we find out that the false prophet (little horn) comes out of the ten kings.

 

 

 Revelation 17:11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

During Johns time, we were at the legs of the statue.

 

John was under the rule of Rome.  The end time beast was not there yet, so it cannot be that same Rome which is to come in the last days.

If the end time beast "was" meaning came and gone, but not now ruling during Johns day, .....but yet to come again where does this fit in?

Confusing?....

.....because it's not talking about a particular empire now, such as Rome, it's speaking about the final empire of Satan as a whole.  All the 7 empires are of Satan's kingdom,  leading to his final plan, which he had tried in the beginning....

This was the system of Babel, when the world was one.  One king, one language, one belief system, one rule. 

God stopped Satan in his tracks back then and confused the people so they couldn't communicate as one with each other under their one leader (Nimrod).

Language, and new cultures spreading out would be the barrier, hindering Satan's plan, as they left and started new nations and kingdoms, breaking away from Nimrod.

But thousands of years later, by the time the false prophet arises out of Satan's dominating 7th kingdom, Satan's idea for the world to be one, which he had back then in Babel will return and become a reality.

The diversities of language, people, cultures and nations will not hinder his plan any more,

for the world can communicate with each other quite easily and they will all re-unite under a trade system,

and under that one leader he chooses again to bring this about,

....and he will do this through introducing his chosen man, "The False Prophet" who will decieve the whole world into taking "the Mark of the Beast."

The world will be taken and unified again under this one simple new international law.

 

It's this last 7th empire, who will be ruling at the time to help fulfill Satan's plan in bringing back the world to be "one" again, as it was in Babel,

and the coming together "as one" is this beast that "was" and "is not" (Babel) and is "of the seven" (associated with the 7th kingdom only)

 

 

 

[Diaste]

Hi Diaste,

 

 

Ok. Couple things: Here you have Rome as the 6th or, 'one is'. In the statue there are only 4 kingdoms with the toes of iron and clay being an extension of the 4th.

 

How can Rome be 6th and 4th?

 

Thanks for the reply!   

 

Because Daniels statue does not cover all 7 empires, so where are the other 2 empires of the 7 headed beast?

 

Obviously the other 2 were before the statue vision, obvious because they can be no other place since no harlot system exists nor ever will again after Christ's 2nd coming.

It's not at all obvious to me. Scripture says nothing about 2 kingdoms before the kingdoms of the statue. If these kingdoms are so important to our understanding of the last days they should have been listed somewhere but i can't find them in scripture.

So again, I don't understand how the 4 statue kingdoms are associated with the 7 kings of Revelation 13. I mean, how do we know we can add Egypt and Assyria as part of the statue kingdoms and the 7 kings from Revelation?

 

Therefore a question arises, why did God exclude 2 empires from Daniels statue?

 

And the answer is .. and it is so very simple when realized .. is .. that the vision of the statue was for the future ..  from Daniels time onwards into the future.

If the vision is for the future then why doesn't the list begin at Babylon?

As in:

1) Babylon

2) Persia

3) Greece

4) Rome

5) Islam?

6) Maybe Mongols? They had the  biggest empire in the history of the world.

7) British Empire? They ruled over the greatest population in history.

Just speculation.

 

How easy is that? .. no complicated doctrines to explain it, because God already did.

Can you cite a chapter and verse so I can check it out?

 

God revealed this at the very start of the statue descriptive, revealed through Daniel to the king of Babylon, all because king Neb wondered what would come after his kingdom !!

I understand that the interpretation is for Babylon and what comes after. Why do we add Egypt and Assyria to the 'five that are fallen'? I just want to understand the logic.

 

So this is not speculation nor private interpretation that Babylon was empire # 3 which makes Rome empire # 6 .. because as God revealed through Daniel .. the vision (statue) was only from Daniels time onwards.

Its seems confusing. I thought the statue represented kingdoms and the verse, " And there are seven kings..." were kings, not kingdoms.

 

So to get the other 2 empires is also simple .. just look for them in the world before king Nebs Babylon.

Ok. I did that. We could also include Sumeria, Kush, and Mesopotamia. These were Empires that predated Egypt(Kush) and existed contemporaneously with Babylon(Mesopotamia). The 'five are fallen' could be Kush, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Assyria and Babylon. Making the sixth 'that is' Persia. The 7th would be Greece. Greece was short lived in the grand scheme. Alexander took power in 336 BC and was dead by 323 BC, very short lived compared to the others.

Just saying...

 

Thanks Diaste.

[Diaste]

 

Ok. Couple things: Here you have Rome as the 6th or, 'one is'. In the statue there are only 4 kingdoms with the toes of iron and clay being an extension of the 4th.

How can Rome be 6th and 4th?

How is it there are only four kingdoms in the statue, Babylon, Persia, Greece and the Iron kingdom yet it seems you associate Egypt and Syria with the Statue Kingdoms as well. Where is the connection?

If the prophecy of Revelation is indeed a prophecy, How can some of it be fulfilled before it was given? The vision of the beast and the heads is future from John's day, the beast who is the eighth and is of the 7 and goes to perdition, is future; how can 'five are fallen" be the past?

 

 

Hi Diaste

 

I agree with Serving.  The kingdoms of Egypt and Medo-Persia were before Babylon.  When we come to the head of the statue, which is Babylon, this 3rd empire was ruling at the time... and the rest follow.

Do you mean Egypt and Assyria? Persia is the silver in the statue. I also thought the statue dream said that Babylon was the head of gold. Doesn't that make Babylon first, and at the top? The beginning from which the rest follows?

 

 

 

You asked how does this correspond to the beast in Revelation?

The beast in Rev coming out of the sea includes all the 7 kingdoms from beginning to end. Why? Can you give the scripture so I can read about it?

With the statue: The kingdom of the feet mixed with iron and clay rules for a much shorter time than Rome did, and when this kingdom comes close to it's end, we get to the 10 toes coming up out of this same kingdom, having the final say.

These ten toes correspond to the 10 horns and crowns on the last head (kingdom) of the beast in Rev 13. I'm good with that....

 

We also know that this same end time kingdom which is the 7th kingdom, morphs into an 8th kingdom when the False prophet arises out of the ten.  We are not told this in the interpretation of the statue, but if we read further on in Daniel, we find out that the false prophet (little horn) comes out of the ten kings. I'm pretty sure the 'little horn' is the beast and not the false prophet. :-)

 

 

 Revelation 17:11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

During Johns time, we were at the legs of the statue.

 

John was under the rule of Rome.  The end time beast was not there yet, so it cannot be that same Rome which is to come in the last days.

If the end time beast "was" meaning came and gone, but not now ruling during Johns day, .....but yet to come again where does this fit in?

Confusing?....

.....because it's not talking about a particular empire now, such as Rome, it's speaking about the final empire of Satan as a whole.  All the 7 empires are of Satan's kingdom,  leading to his final plan, which he had tried in the beginning....

This was the system of Babel, when the world was one.  One king, one language, one belief system, one rule. 

God stopped Satan in his tracks back then and confused the people so they couldn't communicate as one with each other under their one leader (Nimrod).

Language, and new cultures spreading out would be the barrier, hindering Satan's plan, as they left and started new nations and kingdoms, breaking away from Nimrod.

But thousands of years later, by the time the false prophet arises out of Satan's dominating 7th kingdom, Satan's idea for the world to be one, which he had back then in Babel will return and become a reality.

The diversities of language, people, cultures and nations will not hinder his plan any more,

for the world can communicate with each other quite easily and they will all re-unite under a trade system,

and under that one leader he chooses again to bring this about,

....and he will do this through introducing his chosen man, "The False Prophet" who will decieve the whole world into taking "the Mark of the Beast."

The world will be taken and unified again under this one simple new international law.

 

It's this last 7th empire, who will be ruling at the time to help fulfill Satan's plan in bringing back the world to be "one" again, as it was in Babel,

and the coming together "as one" is this beast that "was" and "is not" (Babel) and is "of the seven" (associated with the 7th kingdom only)

I get what you are saying though I'm sure that trade has nothing to do with what is coming. The reason we can't buy or sell unless we have the mark is to pressure us into a choice. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with forcing the world to worship the dragon and the beast. But the big question remains. When I read Rev 17:9-12 I see a future prophecy.  What you and Serving seem to be saying is something a little different. If I under stand correctly you both are saying:

 

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 

Verse 9 is future. I'm good with that, Catholicism hadn't been invented At the time John received this prophecy. Verse 10 is the problem verse.

 

10 And there are seven kings: Can't tell what tense this is. It's declarative, There simply are 7 kings. But since it's prophecy I assume it's about the future from when it was given, as is Revelation from Chapter 4 to the end.

10 five are fallen...Serving and yourself are saying this part of verse 10 is past.

10 and one is...You are saying this part is the present.

10 and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. Now we are back to the future.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Verse 11 is future. I'm good with this too. The beast has not risen yet.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Verse 12 is future. I'm good with this as well. These 10 kings have not yet been empowered. What I'm asking is: How can an incomplete thought, "...five are fallen, and one is..." be about the the past when the subject, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, is future? That's what I'm wondering.

 

What I see is this: The 10 horn 7 headed beast "shall ascend" out of the pit. Well if the beast and the horns and the heads "shall ascend" then none of the heads(kings) can be past. The horned beast with 10 crowns is one entity that hasn't yet arrived. He comes with the heads and the horns sometime after John writes down "things which must be hereafter."(Rev 4:1)

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2015 by Diaste