'Paul's vision'

[Pamelasv]

This is something that always bothers me. How has it been determined that Paul was the one who was caught up into heaven? When he says he will boast about a man like that but not of himself. ??

[Ezra]

This is something that always bothers me. How has it been determined that Paul was the one who was caught up into heaven? When he says he will boast about a man like that but not of himself. ??

Paul was simply saying that he really did not want to boast about himself, but since his apostleship was being challenged, he would mention the person (himself) who went to Heaven and returned to earth. He is metaphorically dissociating himself from the one who visited Heaven, but it is quite clear that it is Paul himself (2 Cor 12:5-7).  He goes on to say that because this experience might make him proud, he was given a thorn in the flesh (which is interpreted is various ways).

[Joshua-777]

This is something that always bothers me. How has it been determined that Paul was the one who was caught up into heaven? When he says he will boast about a man like that but not of himself. ??

I always wondered that, it could have been Paul but I don't see it in the text, or John considering He had the vision of Revelation, perhaps he had visions often. It also could have been just a regular believer, someone not mentioned in scripture.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.

 

[Guest Teditis]

People like to just guess about things like that...

[Matthew T.]

You can ask yourself some obvious questions. It is clear that Paul knew of SOMEONE that had went up to the third heaven. If it were someone else, why would he have a problem with identification? He clearly said that he WOULD BOAST of such a man. How did he know exactly where this person went? How is it that he (Paul) came to understand the gospel so clearly and perfectly when all other disciples struggled with separating the issues? Paul said he would not brag about himself, but he would brag that "the man" was caught up and had that experience. He was wanting the experience to be validated without being prideful by making it all about "him".

 

A guess?

 

2Cor. 12

⁵ On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. ⁶ For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.

 

Seems clear enough to me? I think Paul was wanting to recognize that God was using him in a mighty, mighty way because he was being challenged. And he was also wanting to express personal humility. He didn't want to appear to be a bragger.

 

But there's nothing wrong with everyone drawing their own conclusions. This isn't a salvation issue, even peripherally.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Matthew T.

[Ezra]

People like to just guess about things like that...

There's no guesswork here.  Paul connects his visit to Heaven with his thorn in the flesh. The entire chapter should be read as a whole, and even the first verse tells us whom is is talking about and that he is trying to avoid being boastful.   

 

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [Whose visions and revelations other than his own?]

 

Then he says this (v.6)

For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

[Guest shiloh357]

It's pretty clear that Paul is talking about himself.   It is not a guess.   Why would Paul receive a thorn in the flesh because of the vision if he wasn't the one who had the vision?   Why would Paul be afflicted on account of someone  else's vision?   Why would Paul need to kept from being conceited about a vision he didn't have???   I mean, c'mon....

[FresnoJoe]

 

Paul And John Weren't The Only Ones

 

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

 

Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

 

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

 

And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

 

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 6:1-5

[Guest Teditis]

I've heard many suggest that Paul was writing this in the "third-person".

If that were true, he was trying to conceal the fact that it was indeed himself

that he was referring to. So to deduce that he was talking about himself would

still be guesswork because he concealed the "man's" identity.

It seems proper to me to read it as written and that he was referring to a man that he knew

and draw no other conclusions.

[Guest shiloh357]

That doesn't make any sense.   Again,  if it was someone else, then why was Paul afflicted on account of the vision???   It is obviously Paul.  No guesswork needed.  In fact, if it happened to someone else there would be no reason for Paul to refrain from boasting.    Refraining from boasting about a vision he never had is rather pointless. 

 

All of the details of the story indicate it is a personal experience that Paul had.