'Paul's vision'

[missmuffet]

It's pretty clear that Paul is talking about himself.   It is not a guess.   Why would Paul receive a thorn in the flesh because of the vision if he wasn't the one who had the vision?   Why would Paul be afflicted on account of someone  else's vision?   Why would Paul need to kept from being conceited about a vision he didn't have???   I mean, c'mon....

Well said shiloh.Makes a lot of sense to me.Sometimes we try to make scripture too complicated when the answers are right before our eyes.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Pamelasv and Ezra.

 

 

This is something that always bothers me. How has it been determined that Paul was the one who was caught up into heaven? When he says he will boast about a man like that but not of himself. ??

Paul was simply saying that he really did not want to boast about himself, but since his apostleship was being challenged, he would mention the person (himself) who went to Heaven and returned to earth. He is metaphorically dissociating himself from the one who visited Heaven, but it is quite clear that it is Paul himself (2 Cor 12:5-7).  He goes on to say that because this experience might make him proud, he was given a thorn in the flesh (which is interpreted is various ways).

 

 

There’s another explanation for what Paul was talking about. He was NOT necessarily saying that he “went to Heaven and returned to earth.” Rather, he was talking about a CHRONOLOGICAL vision! He saw the FUTURE and reported it, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PROPHET!

 

Let’s look at Paul’s words carefully:

 

2 Corinthians 12:1-4

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

KJV

 

However, the Greek says this:

 

Pros Korinthious B 12:1-4

1 Kauchasthai dei, ou sumferon men, eleusomai de eis optasias kai apokalupseis Kuriou.

2 Oida anthroopon en Christoo pro etoon dekatessaroon - eite en soomati ouk oida, eite ektos tou soomatos ouk oida, ho Theos oiden - harpagenta ton toiouton heoos tritou ouranou.

3 Kai oida ton toiouton anthroopon - eite en soomati eite chooris tou soomatos ouk oida, ho Theos oiden -

4 hoti heerpagee eis ton paradeison kai eekousen arreeta reemata ha ouk exon anthroopoo laleesai.

UBS Greek New Testament

 

1 Kauchasthai = To vaunt

dei, = necessarily,

ou = not

sumferon = it-is-advantageous

men, = in-fact,

eleusomai = I-will-come

de = but

eis = into

optasias = visions

kai = and/also

apokalupseis = revelations

Kuriou. = of-Lord.

2 Oida = 2 I-saw/knew

anthroopon = a-man

en = in

Christoo = (the)-Messiah

pro = to/toward

etoon = years

dekatessaroon = fourteen

eite = whether

en = in

soomati = a-body

ouk = not

oida, = I-saw/knew,

eite = whether

ektos = out

tou = of-the

soomatos = body

ouk = not

oida, = I-saw/knew,

ho = the

Theos = God

oiden, = sees/knows,

harpagenta = he-was-seized/snatched-away

ton = the

toiouton = truly-this-(one)

heoos = like/as

tritou = to-a-third

ouranou. = sky.

3 Kai = 3 And/Also

oida = I-saw/knew

ton = the

toiouton = truly-this

anthroopon, = man,

eite = whether

en = in

soomati = a-body

eite = or/whether

chooris = separated-from

tou = the

soomatos = body

ouk = not

oida, = I-saw/knew,

ho = the

Theos = God

oiden, = sees/knows,

4 hoti = 4 that

heerpagee = he-was-seized/snatched-away

eis = into

ton = the

paradeison = park-of-trees

kai = and/also

eekousen = he-heard

arreeta = not-outspoken

reemata = words

ha = which

ouk = not

exon = it-is-lawful

anthroopoo = for-a-man

laleesai. = to-speak/say.

 

Notice that there is no word for “up” anywhere within these verses! “Harpazoo” does NOT mean “caught UP!” It means "to be seized or snatched!” This was NOT a vertical move; it was a horizontal move ... through TIME!

 

Use PETER’S "third heaven,” not Scofield’s!

 

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (1st heavens and earth)

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the Flood)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, (2nd heavens and earth) by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (the Fire)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (3rd heavens and earth!)

KJV

 

THAT’S where WHEN Paul was snatched away!

[Ezra]

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Paul did go to Heaven and he did return to earth.  John also went to Heaven and returned to earth, then wrote Revelation. The K-I-S-S principle still applies.

[Leonardo Von]

On 6/6/2015 at 0:04 PM, Pamelasv said:

This is something that always bothers me. How has it been determined that Paul was the one who was caught up into heaven? When he says he will boast about a man like that but not of himself. ??

Dear sister Pamelasv,

 

Grace and mercy and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

This can be see reading the chapter until verse eleven:

 

·        “It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.” (2Corinthians 12.1-11).

 

What happens in this passage is that Paul is embarrassed on both sides: on the one hand, Paul feels the need to defend his apostolate, which was being questioned; on the other hand, he fears to be exalted by virtue of the thorn in the flesh which had been put to him. He feared that if he would glory, something worse could happen in his life. So he prefers to write in the third person, as if he were speaking of another.