Different Raptures

[Larry 2]

 

 

All the saints will be gathered at one and the same time and transformed, while those who died in Christ will be reunited with their glorious, immortal bodies.

What makes you think so? How are some possibly with Jesus before the tribulation, and others of the church arrive in heaven out of great tribulation? Thanks for your reply.

 

I don't believe I said anything about anyone going through the Great Tribulation.  The saints are ALL caught up to Heaven BEFORE that happens.  God has not appointed us to wrath.

 

I’m sorry Ezra, I know you didn’t say any of the redeemed would go through the tribulation; that was a question of mine.

Let me ask it another way.

 

Do you think that Revelation Chapter Four is before the tribulation we read of indexed in Revelation Chapter Six?

 

Do you believe that the 24 elders and 4 living creatures or beasts are raptured children of God?

 

What of the Great Multitude of Rev 7:14? Were they caught up to God back in Revelation Chapter Four, and John just didn’t see or describe them at that time?

 

Matthew Chapter Twenty-four describes the second 3 ½ years of tribulation when the antichrist begins his rule on earth which is wrath before unknown.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

Thanks.

[Sister]

Larry2

 

I see that the 4 beasts around the throne of God are always there, where ever the throne is.

The fact that they are praising with the 24 elders shows that they are all one in spirit.  To give you an idea what I mean is this;

 

 Revelation 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

Revelation 22:9   Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

 

When earth was created, the angels were given special jobs to perform.  They were also called "the watchers".  God had a plan for mankind, and all of the heavenly host were involved with this.

A third of the angels in heaven fell.  They were not "watching out for us", but working against us.  This shows that the angels had free will also, that they could be deceived, and could act on their own.

They could sow "doubt" in heaven amongst their fellows.

 

So all of the angels in heaven went through a test themselves.  The ones that remained faithful to the Lord were going through a learning process also.  They witnessed what rebellion against the Lord produced, and they got to witness what evil truly is and where it leads to.  They have learn't by watching how things develop through sin.

 

If the angels are our "brethren" then they were the ones working for our benefit. If we have overcome, then they have done their jobs well also.  They have also overcome, and have done what was commanded to them and proved faithful also.  Their test was man.  Being "overseers" and guiding us in the right direction gives them the right to glory with us.  Our conquest, was also theirs.  They were there the whole way.

 

It men were redeemed, then they are also, because all doubt in heaven is removed.

 

Now to Zone in on the four beasts, were they created without a will also?  They would of had their jobs to do as well, and the fact that they are around the throne continually, gives them much knowledge.

Don't forget Lucifer, the much loved Cherub had vast knowledge and abused his power with this knowledge.

 

That's how I can see it anyway.

God bless.

[Larry 2]

Larry2

 

I see that the 4 beasts around the throne of God are always there, where ever the throne is.

The fact that they are praising with the 24 elders shows that they are all one in spirit.  To give you an idea what I mean is this;

 

 Revelation 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

Revelation 22:9   Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

 

When earth was created, the angels were given special jobs to perform.  They were also called "the watchers".  God had a plan for mankind, and all of the heavenly host were involved with this.

A third of the angels in heaven fell.  They were not "watching out for us", but working against us.  This shows that the angels had free will also, that they could be deceived, and could act on their own.

They could sow "doubt" in heaven amongst their fellows.

 

So all of the angels in heaven went through a test themselves.  The ones that remained faithful to the Lord were going through a learning process also.  They witnessed what rebellion against the Lord produced, and they got to witness what evil truly is and where it leads to.  They have learn't by watching how things develop through sin.

 

If the angels are our "brethren" then they were the ones working for our benefit. If we have overcome, then they have done their jobs well also.  They have also overcome, and have done what was commanded to them and proved faithful also.  Their test was man.  Being "overseers" and guiding us in the right direction gives them the right to glory with us.  Our conquest, was also theirs.  They were there the whole way.

 

It men were redeemed, then they are also, because all doubt in heaven is removed.

 

Now to Zone in on the four beasts, were they created without a will also?  They would of had their jobs to do as well, and the fact that they are around the throne continually, gives them much knowledge.

Don't forget Lucifer, the much loved Cherub had vast knowledge and abused his power with this knowledge.

 

That's how I can see it anyway.

God bless.

 

Hi Sister, what we believe will not affect the salvation we are to experience unless it would harm our walk with Christ.

 

My interest is in the implementation of God’s work as we see ensuing signs of the times.

Jesus’ angel of Rev 1:1, that one of Rev 19:10 is simply a messenger to make known coming events of the end times to John, and if you look at Rev 2:1  Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write . . . These were pastors of those seven churches addressed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

I personally do not believe the one John bowed to in Rev 19:10 was a created angel, but merely a saint conformed into the very image of Christ.

Is there any scripture you know of suggesting that angels are redeemed? I know that you think Rev 19:10 says that.

 

We may even be given a message just for us through preaching in our local assemblies. That is the speaker being the messenger at that moment. I’ve heard people say; That message was just for me, and it could very well have been.

 

God bless you in Jesus’ name.

[Sister]

 

Hi Sister, what we believe will not affect the salvation we are to experience unless it would harm our walk with Christ.

 

 

Hi Larry2

 

If we have the true testimony of Christ, then we are of those who have been given the truth.

The truth can only be revealed through the holy spirit and the truth cannot be based upon assumptions and opinions, but on what we have been given through the holy scriptures.

If we interpret something wrong in square 1, then square 2 and 3 will be out.  Do you see what I am saying?  It will lead us down a path of error.

 

I don't wish to distract your post and go off in another direction, which is why I am going back to square 1.  I can't continue on in square 3 because it doesn't flow.  We have to establish the same understanding from square 1 for the topic to flow, or else it turns into a den of confusion and the topic goes every where else and not where you intended it to go.

 

I am not the authority on the scriptures, so all we are doing is reasoning within the scriptures we are given.  Everything has to harmonise. 

 

So if somebody has preached error or misunderstood some scriptures is he condemned?  No.  As we learn we always make mistakes, and what the holy spirit will do, is to correct us if we will hear. God will sharpen us.  You have answered me back quickly brother, and I can see you are passionate about the truth, and look into a lot of detail therefore I will invest my time in this conversation, and I believe the spirit of God has led you to open this up for discussion.

 

Now you have made some points that made me stop and think!  For a moment I was really pondering on what you said, thinking maybe I'm wrong, so I just had to go back to the scriptures to prove to myself why I believed the way I do, and found some answers there to your questions.

 

Which is why I am bringing forth my points, and you can bring forth yours.  We are laying it all out on the table, and I wish to go back to the drawing board dear brother.  If you are up for a good discussion

 

My interest is in the implementation of God’s work as we see ensuing signs of the times.

Jesus’ angel of Rev 1:1, that one of Rev 19:10 is simply a messenger to make known coming events of the end times to John, and if you look at Rev 2:1  Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write . . . These were pastors of those seven churches addressed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

 

 

Ok, what I see wrong here is that the letters were not addressed to the pastors, but to the angels who were overseeing these churches.

 

Revelation 1:20   The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

The letters were written to the 7 angels in charge of those churches, who are the 7 stars.  These angels are responsible and overlooking the 7 candlesticks which are the 7 churches.  The warning was given to each angel to warn the church. 

The truth is for each individual to seek out during their walk.  Repenting is for each of us on a personal level.  If the warning was placed solely on the pastor, and the pastor did not heed, then the individuals could blame the pastor for not guiding them directly.  Each one of us is responsible for our walk and efforts to find the truth.  We cannot place any blame on any one else for error but ourselves which is why we use the bible as our authority.

[Sister]

Larry 2

 

 

I personally do not believe the one John bowed to in Rev 19:10 was a created angel, but merely a saint conformed into the very image of Christ.

Is there any scripture you know of suggesting that angels are redeemed? I know that you think Rev 19:10 says that.

 

 

 

 Revelation 22:8   And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

 

The book of Rev was given from God and revealed to Christ, who revealed it to the angel, who revealed it to John.  This is the only order given.

 

No, it doesn't say anywhere suggesting that the angels were redeemed, only man.  If an angel falls, this is blasphemy of the holy spirit, and there is no forgiveness.

I tried to explain it in my previous post, that because the angels are given tasks to do in the overseeing of men, then what is accomplished in us is because they obeyed the Lord also by carrying out his commands to get us from a to b.  They share in our joy.

 

I went off track in my last reply trying to go more into detail about the angels and my reply caused some confusion. Sorry brother.

 

I will stick to the subject.  You were pointing out that around the throne were only 4 beasts and 24 elders and that they were redeemed, so they must be all men.

 

Revelation 5:8   And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 5:9   And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:10   And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

These around the throne are all witnesses.  They are witnesses to the truth.  The apostles were already given all the truth for they are our teachers, and were sent out to us.

 

That new song is the truth, the full truth, everything revealed.  It was revealed first to them and the 4 beasts know it also because they are always around the throne.  They are not men, and have not been redeemed but they share and rejoice in that same song, the truth.

 

 Revelation 14:3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

This same song, the full truth would be shown also to those living in the last generation before Christ's return, and it is shown to only 144,000 men who are on the earth.

We have the first witnesses to the truth, the apostles in heaven already, around the throne, and the last witnesses to the truth on earth, the 144,000.  They have learn't of their teachers.   

[Larry 2]

 

Hi Sister, what we believe will not affect the salvation we are to experience unless it would harm our walk with Christ.

 

 

Hi Larry2

 

If we have the true testimony of Christ, then we are of those who have been given the truth.

The truth can only be revealed through the holy spirit and the truth cannot be based upon assumptions and opinions, but on what we have been given through the holy scriptures.

If we interpret something wrong in square 1, then square 2 and 3 will be out.  Do you see what I am saying?  It will lead us down a path of error.

 

I don't wish to distract your post and go off in another direction, which is why I am going back to square 1.  I can't continue on in square 3 because it doesn't flow.  We have to establish the same understanding from square 1 for the topic to flow, or else it turns into a den of confusion and the topic goes every where else and not where you intended it to go.

 

I am not the authority on the scriptures, so all we are doing is reasoning within the scriptures we are given.  Everything has to harmonise. 

 

So if somebody has preached error or misunderstood some scriptures is he condemned?  No.  As we learn we always make mistakes, and what the holy spirit will do, is to correct us if we will hear. God will sharpen us.  You have answered me back quickly brother, and I can see you are passionate about the truth, and look into a lot of detail therefore I will invest my time in this conversation, and I believe the spirit of God has led you to open this up for discussion.

 

Now you have made some points that made me stop and think!  For a moment I was really pondering on what you said, thinking maybe I'm wrong, so I just had to go back to the scriptures to prove to myself why I believed the way I do, and found some answers there to your questions.

 

Which is why I am bringing forth my points, and you can bring forth yours.  We are laying it all out on the table, and I wish to go back to the drawing board dear brother.  If you are up for a good discussion

 

My interest is in the implementation of God’s work as we see ensuing signs of the times.

Jesus’ angel of Rev 1:1, that one of Rev 19:10 is simply a messenger to make known coming events of the end times to John, and if you look at Rev 2:1  Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write . . . These were pastors of those seven churches addressed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

 

 

Ok, what I see wrong here is that the letters were not addressed to the pastors, but to the angels who were overseeing these churches.

 

Revelation 1:20   The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

The letters were written to the 7 angels in charge of those churches, who are the 7 stars.  These angels are responsible and overlooking the 7 candlesticks which are the 7 churches.  The warning was given to each angel to warn the church. 

The truth is for each individual to seek out during their walk.  Repenting is for each of us on a personal level.  If the warning was placed solely on the pastor, and the pastor did not heed, then the individuals could blame the pastor for not guiding them directly.  Each one of us is responsible for our walk and efforts to find the truth.  We cannot place any blame on any one else for error but ourselves which is why we use the bible as our authority.

 

I reckon the proof will be in the pudding when we are face to face with our Savior.

 

A thought I have concerning the angels of the churches not being their pastors is that they need to have John write letters to them so they know what the judgment against them is.

Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 

[Marilyn C]

Another good bit of detail, Larry,  Seems to me that all these lastest threads are very similar. Is God underlining something here?

 

Marilyn. 

[Sister]

 

 

 

I reckon the proof will be in the pudding when we are face to face with our Savior.

 

A thought I have concerning the angels of the churches not being their pastors is that they need to have John write letters to them so they know what the judgment against them is.

Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 

 

 

 

 

Yes I agree.  Those letters John wrote had to be preserved somehow in order to be delivered to us.

We have those letters in our hands now!

 

The angel would of done his job in making sure those letters were not destroyed by the enemy, and the proof today is that we have access to those letters.

[Sister]

Revelation 5:6   And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

 

Revelation 5:8   And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

Revelation 5:9   And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

These in heaven around the throne sing a new song.  This would be the fulfilling of the New Testament.  The completed truth.  The elders were given this,..not the truth in part, but the full truth, ...and not just when they were there in heaven, but even before whilst alive on this earth because the Lamb had fed them.

 

The apostles were our teachers.  They were sent out to testify of Christ after his death and resurrection, and preach the gospel of the New Testament. Not only did they teach just the gospels, but the solids also to those already mature in Christ that required more spiritual food. Those who were weaned off the milk.

The apostles were chosen for this purpose, hence why they know this new song.  It's everything Christ revealed to them after they received the holy spirit, and they went out and taught. 

 

John 15:14   Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

John 15:15   Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

 

Christ speaking to the apostles here.

 

Now, not only do the above know this new song, but the 144,000 below know it too.  The song they sing is not new anymore. 

  Revelation 14:3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

It's not a new song anymore (a new teaching), because it started with the apostles.  It's the very same teachings we were given by them at the beginning.

No man alive knows this song at the end of the age but the 144,000.

 

So at the end of this age, the true teachings has survived in the hearts of these 144,000 because they were fed,... simply because they followed the Lamb.

Obviously, just like the apostles, they did whatever the Lamb commanded.

 

It's sad the number is so small, but from what the scriptures are pointing to it's true.  And these are the only ones who will be sealed.

 

Revelation 14:4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

Doesn't this make you wonder?

 

 Matthew 9:37   Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

 

[Larry 2]

Revelation 5:6   And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

 

Revelation 5:8   And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

Revelation 5:9   And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

These in heaven around the throne sing a new song.  This would be the fulfilling of the New Testament.  The completed truth.  The elders were given this,..not the truth in part, but the full truth, ...and not just when they were there in heaven, but even before whilst alive on this earth because the Lamb had fed them.

 

The apostles were our teachers.  They were sent out to testify of Christ after his death and resurrection, and preach the gospel of the New Testament. Not only did they teach just the gospels, but the solids also to those already mature in Christ that required more spiritual food. Those who were weaned off the milk.

The apostles were chosen for this purpose, hence why they know this new song.  It's everything Christ revealed to them after they received the holy spirit, and they went out and taught. 

 

John 15:14   Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

John 15:15   Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

 

Christ speaking to the apostles here.

 

Now, not only do the above know this new song, but the 144,000 below know it too.  The song they sing is not new anymore. 

  Revelation 14:3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

It's not a new song anymore (a new teaching), because it started with the apostles.  It's the very same teachings we were given by them at the beginning.

No man alive knows this song at the end of the age but the 144,000.

 

So at the end of this age, the true teachings has survived in the hearts of these 144,000 because they were fed,... simply because they followed the Lamb.

Obviously, just like the apostles, they did whatever the Lamb commanded.

 

It's sad the number is so small, but from what the scriptures are pointing to it's true.  And these are the only ones who will be sealed.

 

Revelation 14:4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

Doesn't this make you wonder?

 

 Matthew 9:37   Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

 

A problem I have with that is that the apostles were sealed as a part of the body of Christ before the tribulation begins, they have the promise in Mat 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Whether they are a portion of the 24 elders I do not know, but I have a dear brother in Christ that believes that some of the 144,000 are possibly being sealed at this present time, and even back to the day of Pentecost. I just do not know for sure, and I doubt others do either.

 

I also wonder that if the elders included the apostles, and we read in Rev 5:9-10 that they reign as kings and priests, what will that be? To me it’s evident we will not know the extent of all these scriptures until we are face to face with Jesus. What I do feel to be truth is that we see John describing different groups arriving at separate times in the same location of heaven. How do we make it fit if there is but one rapture.

 

Blessings.