Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Anytime someone tells me something in prophecy is "clear" - I know it is anything but "clear" - and rather: it is a conclusion they have reached which is unshakeable.  No amount of reasoning will ever result in their changing their mind; I know of only one person who has corrected their thinking on the basis of another pointing out their error on a message board.  

Mostly, on Christian message boards, the best we can do is to agree to disagree.  The important part for me is to see where we divulge in opinion and thinking so I can examine the choice I made.  Sometimes, I learn something new.

And before you point out my error, you might want to remove all error on your part.  I will write in response, not for you, but the reader who reads this; perhaps it will encourage them to look anew at a small facet of end-time prophecy.  They might have a more objective perspective than one like yourself that invested too much emotional energy into their thinking on this subject.

When looking at apocalyptic writing, I think it important not to lump events and things together on the basis of a superficial description, or a coincidence of wording.  Rather, look at the real basis of what the author is describing to see if there is a true link, or whether one should differentiate between the two.

One easy example might be how people link the seven Seals to the seven years of the one 'seven' on a 1:1 basis.  Still others will run the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls concurrently based on the coincidence of number with some minor ties alongside them.

In the case of 'inchrist', he has linked the sixth Seal sign of the "sun/moon/star event" to some of the Trumpets based on the superficial aspect that they are "cosmically" arrayed.  Once he has fashioned this link, it then becomes "clear" to him that they go together, and the error propagates itself to where he then finds fault with anyone who does not jump down this particular rabbit hole with him.

The whole point of the Seals is to unlock the Scroll.  A seal keeps something bound by authority.  When Jesus breaks each Seal, we find an action is initiated.  These actions are unexpected, and while the actions of the first four are similar, the actions of the fifth, sixth, and seventh are diverse and seemingly random.

Once the seventh Seal is broken, the Scroll can be read.  

I put it to you, as something I have made a connection upon, and have come to think is true - that the Scroll is where the desolations that 'have been decreed' from Gabriel's message to Daniel (9:26) have been stored.

Trumpets announce.  There are many different types: assembly, attack, warning, retreat, farewell, start, and attention - to name a few.  Each trumpet announces to the wicked some desolation upon their living condition, some degradation of their environment whether of the earth, water, or sky; or some other living presence such as some entity including theirselves as in the case of war.

The two are as different as night and bees.

1. The moon becoming like blood is a simile.  It describes its appearance.  This appearance does not last long; it is only part of a celestial sign indicating the thumbprint signature of God: that man would know that what follows comes from Him.

2. The blood which results from the first Trumpet is part of the rain of hail-fire which burns a third of the earth.  It desolates the earth.  As I also link the first Trumpet to the Day of the Lord's Wrath (for other reasons), I also look at the blood to be part of the twin defiling and redemption of the "land" - Israel as per Rev 14:18-20.

Likewise, the other "cosmic signs" 'inchrist' points to have no correlation to the "sun/moon/star" event because while coming from the sky in the case 3rd Trumpet, it's effect is to desolate the water, again, punishing the wicked.  To do so causes his error, which leads to his conclusion, which then leads him to make all kinds of claims, which are not worth deep examination: they do not destroy an entire group of eschatologies.

I have wondered why some people are so motivated to destroy, to tear down another viewpoint, especially when they so often get that viewpoint wrong in the first place.  It's like that murderer mohammed calling the trinity God, Jesus, and Mary to deride it so as to prop up his moon god allah; he's wrong on both counts.  If your view is so correct, state it: and the reasons for it will convince in a positive manner.

Thanks.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marcus O'Reillius]

And you sir are wrong once again.  You make an assumption by post herein that I have not dealt with three elements on the Day of the Lord's Wrath.  You are quite ignorant of what I have done in study and have written elsewhere.

I suggest you troll for some sucker fish to lure into your net of false premises and faulty conclusions so you can spew more of your nonsense so that they end up wrapped up in your warped eschatology.

Good day and goodbye for the third time now.  

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On May 23, 2016 at 7:19 PM, inchrist said:

What i find interesting is the attempt to sperate all the cosmic signs...you are blatantly ignoring all evidence given in the following verses.

Signs are given so as to authenticate what follows or goes along with something else is from God.

That is why those disobedient children who would not hear Jesus' Words asked for a sign.  They did not believe what He said.  They lacked understanding and discernment.

The darkening of the sun at noon, it's brightest point, is to set opposition together.  Likewise, "in the evening, it will be light."  These dichotomies are meant to shock, to make people take notice that what follows is no accident, no coincidence, nor something that just "happened."  

What follows in the case of the sun/moon/star event is Jesus' parousia.

The signs in the sun, moon, and stars do not render judgment, nor cause harm, nor do they do any other thing than to act as a bold neon sign that says: THIS IS FROM GOD.

________________

Now, blood, especially when it comes from the wine press of God's Wrath, fire, and smoke - are not signs.  They are desolations.

The desolations of blood, fire and smoke come with the first Trumpet, and in Revelation chapter 14, we see how Angels contribute both fire and blood upon and from the wicked as punishment.  Smoke comes from fires and volcanoes as "mountains will smoke" as well.

The devastation wrought by tremendous loss of life, of fire which burns a third of the earth, and the unmatched desolation the Yellowstone caldera could bring, will last much longer than the single day - the second half of the Day of the Lord - in which they come.

I link the first Trumpet to the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

That Wrath comes AFTER the Elect are gathered up, and are delivered to the barn of Heaven.  Then the tares are burned in the field of this world.

Fire, blood, and smoke are not celestial signs.  Nor are desolations which occur in the celestial sphere: signs, when their purpose is to punish the wicked by making them suffer and/or die.

So I don't ignore those verse; I just don't have to mix them up like you do.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marcus O'Reillius]

First of all, I don't trust your reading skill after your quip about God being adorned with a rainbow crown.

Second of all, to do a proper reading of Acts 2:19-20 requires actual study.

Sound eschatology cannot be built upon a single verse.
Nor is interpretation relegated to a "natural reading."  

In order to interpret a verse or passage several questions must be asked:

• Who is speaking? 
• Who is the audience?
• What is the context of the verse or passage: history, poetry, prophecy or instruction?
• What is the culture and time in which it is stated?
• What is the original language meaning, emphasis, and/or idioms being used?

1. Peter is speaking right after the Festival of Firstfruits baptism by the Holy Spirit.
2. His audience are Jews from around the world (at that time).
3. Most importantly, Peter is "instructing," this is the first Christian Sermon; and as such, it is his interpretation.
4. Within a Jewish context, Peter is citing Joel, but not word-for-word.
5. Most notably, he has changed several wordings to suit his purpose: which essentially is an altar call.

Any good commentary might help you out at this juncture - you might want to consider consulting a few before making hay out of something else.

From the Expositor's Bible Commentary:
Positively, Peter explains the phenomena taking place among the early Christians at Pentecost as being the fulfillment of Joel 2:28- 32 (MT =3:1- 5). His use of the Joel passage is in line with what since the discovery of the DSS we have learned to call a "pesher" (from Heb. peser, "interpretation"). It lays all emphasis on fulfillment without attempting to exegete the details of the biblical prophecy it "interprets."

Again, on some of the changes Peter makes to Joel:
So Peter introduces the passage with the typically pesher introductory formula "this is that" (touto estin to; NIV, "this is what"). The note of fulfillment is heightened by the alteration of the MT's and the LXX's simple "afterwards" (ahare ken, meta tauta) to "in the last days" (en tais eschatais hemerais, v. 17) and by interrupting the quotation to highlight the restoration of prophecy by inserting the words "and they will prophesy" (v. 18). The solemnity and importance of the words are emphasized by the addition of "God says" (v. 18) at the beginning of the quotation.

Now as to the eschatological implications of Peter's Sermon, I'll quote from the Expositor's before doing my own commentary:
Debates arise between proponents of "realized eschatology" and "inaugurated eschatology," on the one hand, and between amillennialists (including here postmillennialists) and premillennialists (cf. "The Eschatology of the Bible," Robert L. Saucy, EBC, 1:103- 26), on the other hand, about how Peter and the earliest followers of Jesus understood the more spectacular physical signs of Joel's prophecy (i. e., "blood and fire and billows of smoke," "the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood"). Realized eschatologists and amillennialists usually take Peter's inclusion of such physical imagery in a spiritual way, finding in what happened at Pentecost the spiritual fulfillment of Joel's prophecy-- a fulfillment not necessarily tied to any natural phenomena. This, they suggest, offers an interpretative key to the understanding of similar portrayals of natural phenomena and apocalyptic imagery in the OT. Moreover, some realized eschatologists and amillennialists, desiring to retain more than just the symbolic, suggest that these signs should be understood as having actually taken place in the natural world "during the early afternoon of the day of our Lord's crucifixion," when "the sun turned into darkness" and "the paschal full moon... appeared blood- red in the sky in consequence of that preternatural gloom" (Bruce, Book of the Acts, p. 69).

On the other hand, certain features in Peter's sermon show his reason for his emphatic citation of Joel's prophecy. These features are Peter's introductory formula "this is that," his alteration of "afterward" Joel 2:28) to "in the last days," his addition of "God says" at the beginning of the quotation, and his interruption of the quotation to insert "and they will prophesy." He quotes the entire prophecy in Joel 2:28- 32 because of its traditional messianic significance and because its final sentence ("And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved") leads logically to the kerygma section of his sermon. But Peter might not have known what to make of the more physical and spectacular elements of Joel's prophecy, though he probably expected them in some way to follow in the very near future. (Certainly he could not have foreseen a delay of many centuries before their fulfillment.) So his emphasis was on the inauguration of the Messianic Age ("the last days")-- an emphasis we should see as being essential to his preaching and beyond which we are not compelled to go.

God has inaugurated, Peter proclaims, the long- awaited "last days" here and now, and we know this because of the reinstitution of prophecy. Other signs, to be sure, were part of Joel's vision, but Peter does not stress them. His emphasis is entirely on prophecy as the sign of the inauguration of the last days. Even though he might have had his own personal expectations, Peter leaves all else for God to work out in the Messianic Age that had been inaugurated.

That is just a little bit in the way of serious study, and you see that real theologians never rely on a "natural reading" to explain, and interpret a verse, much less indicate its applicability.

I think it is important that Peter references an important Day of the Lord reference in the Old Testament Prophets: he is looking toward Jesus' Return: on the Day of the Lord.
I also think his point linking his experience to that verse was the sudden outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon those gathered.
I think Peter's use of Joel also constitutes the first Altar Call where he cites calling on the Name of the Lord: Jesus, (God saves) and receiving salvation.
The sign right before everyone gathered and wondering were those early Christians talking in understandable languages quite apart from their natural speech.
He adapted "signs" to fit the situation before everyone; this being the first of the early Apostolic miracles: they were a sign from God.
Peter is not declaring that the Day of the Lord has come though.
Notice too, that he is not calling for the assembly on Mount Zion as Joel's text indicates last: Peter is not looking for "survivors."

Acts 2:19-20 is not prophecy.  It is an inspired speech though.
For actual prophecy, we have to go back to what Peter cites to see what came directly from God.

Joel 2:30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 "The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Those are two separate statements: they are separated by a period.
And each sentence is a complete thought.

As Joel has started chapter 2 with God's Wrath, which is directed toward unrepentant Israel on the Day of the Lord, we cannot take this passage to be entirely linear, as here Joel, after relaying what happens ON the Day of the Lord, reverts back after telling his Jewish audience about it, about what precedes it.

So the only thing we can know comes before the Day of the Lord is what I call the "sun/moon/star" event.
God does not call the blood, the fire, and the smoke signs here either.

Now proper exegesis does not hinge on a single verse.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus links the sun/moon/star event as happening right after the truncated, highly shortened, Great Tribulation - AND - more importantly, He then goes right to the Sign of the Son of Man and the gathering of the Elect.  This matches other NT prophecy that we are gathered up on the Day of the Lord.

The sun/moon/star sign is most evident in the book of Revelation's broad overview of the end-times in chapters 4-11 (exclusive) with the sixth Seal.  There we see the 144,000 mentioned and suddenly from John's perspective, the Great Multitude appears in Heaven - coming out of the Great Tribulation in that opening parallel account in that book.

In the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' within the Book of Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive), we see that same mustering of the 144,000 as given with the sixth Seal, and the same Harvest of the Elect which results in the Great Multitude of the sixth Seal -AND THEN - fire and blood.

Those two Angels work to achieve what accompanies Jesus and His Army on the Day of the Lord as set forth in Joel chapter 2 before he gets to wonders and the sun/moo/star sign: two battles, one fought around Jerusalem and the other to the South around Bethlehem.  Armageddon is fought in the hill country of Ephraim and Bible prophecy never cites it as happening coincidentally on the Day of the Lord.

I know this won't change "inchrist's" mind, but I offer it as a sober response to his criticism, so as to defend Pre-Wrath eschatology.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

To reiterate: 

Many times in the Old Testament Prophets, the end-times are seen as a mosaic, a collage of images, and often, there is little linearity.  Isaiah, as an example, has instances of Jesus' First Advent spread haphazardly with Day of the Lord and Millennium passages.  Daniel has some linearity within his visions, especially in chapters 10-12, but even these are split up with dual focus: going from the near-term to the far end-times.

However, we do have, in the New Testament, linear narratives which give a distinct sequence-of-events.  In these passages we can discern a pattern of Rescue-then-Wrath.

 - In the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll Chronology, Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive); we see the Great Multitude taken out of the Great Tribulation and then the physical desolations (which have been decreed) with the Trumpet Judgments.

 - In the detailed parallel account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive); again, we see the Harvest from the clouds in chapter 14 followed by another Angel who has command of the Fire (a first Trumpet desolation and a part of the Day of the Lord's Wrath) telling another Angel to fill the winepress of God's Wrath so that Blood (another component of the Day of the Lord's Wrath) overflows the region.

 - In Paul's account in 2Th chapter 2; like with the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 - the Man of Lawlessness must be revealed before the Day of the Lord and our gathering up to Him.  The anti-Christ's ultimate destruction, however, is certain - which follows Daniel 9:27's end being poured out on him.

 - In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gives us the keystone passage which allows us to link Daniel 9:27's midpoint to Mt 24:15 - so that only then can we determine that the sixth Seal, with its attendant sun/moon/star sign, comes early in the second half of the one 'seven'.  Notice that God's Wrath is not mentioned in Jesus' linear narrative.  As Paul said, we are destined for Wrath.

In the New Testament: we can look forward to Salvation with the Day of the Lord.
In the Old Testament: the Jews can only shudder to think of the calamity which will befall them on that Day.

The difference between Christian and Jew, as Revelation 12:17 is written, is that we hold onto the testimony of Christ Jesus and the Jews have rejected Him.
While we are saved, they are left behind, and unfortunately, the prophets relate that many of them (but not all) will die.

And the only thing saving us is Christ Jesus.

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Sound eschatology cannot be built upon a single verse.
Nor is interpretation relegated to a "natural reading."  

Acts 2:19-20 is not prophecy.  It is an inspired speech though.
For actual prophecy, we have to go back to what Peter cites to see what came directly from God.

Joel 2:30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 "The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Those are two separate statements: they are separated by a period.
And each sentence is a complete thought.

 

Well said. Most of the time sound eschatology is the result of many related passages from several books parsed properly and given time for consultation and reflection.

And I agree that proper interpretation cannot be based solely on natural reading.  In my experience proper interpretation comes from piecing together several passages where truth is gleaned from a natural reading of all the relevant scripture. We really don't have much to go on but a natural reading or we end up with false conclusions, much like inchrist does with his decidedly unnatural reading.

Your example above is from a normal process of reading and comprehension. Two compete thoughts. Separated by a period no less. That's about as normal and natural as one can get. I prefer to read scripture normally allowing for literary devices and context, as you also stated.

So...nice job with your post!

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On June 5, 2016 at 0:57 AM, inchrist said:

You protest too much…

Yes clearly it’s impossible for God to be adorned with a rainbow crown, even though he is surrounded by it but anyway….. let’s deal with rev 10

This pictures the return of Christ…..

Firstly if we look a Rev 10:7 it states the following - 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Mystery of mysterious what is that all about?

 Lets turn to the following:

I Corinthians 15:51-52

”behold I will tell you the mystery! In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we will all be changed, at the last trumpet.”

Lets see Rev 10:7 the seventh angel trumpet being the last trump in the trumpet series, mystery of God would be finished, Paul tells us what this mystery is, we will be changed in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump.

Interesting, what else is Rev 10 telling us?

This”Angel” is clothed in clouds with a crown on his head, here is what Daniel has to say:

Daniel 7:13 records Jesus receiving this crown of rulership -- notice: 

The planting of the right foot on the sea, and the other on the earth, certainly belongs to Christ alone, as it is to Him and not to any “angel” that God has put in subjection the world to come (Hebrews 2:5).

This “Angel” even prophesies and swears an oath, now does the hope of God's people rest on the oath of a created angel? Since when does a created angel swear that the words of prophecy and promise shall be fulfilled? Surely if their hope is to stand unmoved, it can be sustained only by the faithfulness and oath of that very person who is Jesus, whose very nature where failure is not an incident.

Further this angel carries a little scroll  conclusion that the "little scroll" contains some special part of the counsel of God, which Jesus, the one who is invested with supreme authority, is responsible to carry into effect.

Even in Ezekiel visions when He received the scroll, it was GIVEN by GOD Himself, not an “angel” because “angels” are not invested with supreme authority and responsible to carry into effect. How more so with Rev 10?

Further evidence of this “Angle” in Rev to be Jesus, is He is wrapped in a cloud. Cloud is a feature associated with the glorified Jesus Christ, as in Revelation 1:7, where John writes of him, saying: 'Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.' (Compare Daniel 7:13; Matthew 24:30, 31; 1 Thessalonians 4:17)"

This “Angel” "shouted in a voice as loud as the roar of a lion;" and that "when he shouted, seven thunderclaps sounded with voices that spoke." This recalls the fact that Jesus was called "the lion that is of the tribe of Judah" (Revelation 5:5) -- the glorified Messiah now clothed with kingly power in the heavens, awaiting his return to this earth.

We also see the likeness in many respects between this vision and that of the Daniel who wrote: "Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him [God] who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished" (Daniel 12:7).

Rev 10 pictures Jesus in angelic form, glorified…… in fact when Jesus appeared to the disciples in Luke 24:37 they thought they saw a ghost.

First of all, it is not too much to protest how you handle Scripture, because before we lead credence to the bigger points you'd like to say, i.e., 'Pre-Wrath is all wrong', you better be able to prove you can get the little things right: like who is wearing a rainbow crown.

Not only do you get that wrong, you cannot humble yourself enough to simply admit before those you accuse of getting it all wrong, that you were wrong on this one small issue.  Instead, you resort to all kinds of spin trying to reestablish your credibility, which actually has the opposite effect: you appear to be throwing everything at it, hoping something will stick - just so you can say you're right, when you've been wrong more times than that.

It's not that Pre-Wrath is wrong, it's more the case that it doesn't comport with whatever view you have, which you haven't exactly been open about, although we get hints of your own eschatology.  I'd love to start a thread on why I think your brand of eschatology is wrong, because I've debated these subjects long enough on other boards to know each internal inconsistency to ask some really hard questions which typically will not get answered.  People who post, will hold onto their own view, having spent too much emotional and intellectual energy in it to simply discard it and start fresh and new.

Now it is interesting to contrast the lengths you will go to say that God wears a rainbow, on the flimsiest of connections, yet you dismiss the multiple repetitions from the Old Testament, through the Gospel and even unto the book of Revelation, which describe the "Sun/moon/star event" in unwavering similarities.  The "Sun/moon/star event" precedes the all important Day of the Lord, which as a seminal event, is the most important event to happen in all of prophesy: from the Jewish viewpoint with God's Wrath, to the Christian viewpoint with the Rapture - as all referring to the same seminal Day.

"Dealing" with Revelavtion chapter 10 demonstrates how lax you are with making connections.  

You link "a" mystery of the Rapture Paul referenced in 1Co 15 to it, as if there is only one mystery left.  That is a huge assumption on your part.  Of course, you are searching for anything to say that the seventh Trumpet is the Last Trumpet - and when we examine that aspect of your eschatology, which is in another thread, we find it again is repeat with simple errors concerning all the same things you should have gotten right before you sum them up into one big conclusion.

You then take "crown" and link that to Daniel chapter 7, to say the rainbow crown is the Kingship crown, as if there is again, only one crown like there is only one mystery.  If there isn't any distinction between crowns, why are there seven types of crowns believers can earn in service to God?  If there isn't any distinction in crowns, does this make the 24 Elders to be Jesus?  They have crowns... yet these minor nuances don't get in your way of insisting Jesus is the Angel of Rev 10 based on the flimsiest of connections.

As to "clouds," while Jesus comes on the clouds, with the "holies" (i.e., Saints, and I will add - resurrected from Paradise where the Dead in Christ rest in peace) in 1Th 3:13 to Rapture those who remain and are still alive after the Great Tribulation is abruptly cut (very) short by the "Sun/moon/star event" should not be confused with being merely clothed with a cloud.  The only similarity at this point is the word cloud, and necessarily they are of two completely different sizes, not to mention purposes.  This is what happens when you link by a single word and take all context away: you compound simple error into one large erroneous conclusion.

 As to the "scroll" you alone make the conclusion that this contains 'some special counsel' when it's purpose is revealed that John must prophesy again to many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.  As to handling it, you say only God can, but so does Ezekiel as per your example and John in Rev 10.  The fact that John describes the being as a messenger from God (angelos) precludes Jesus being that messenger, as He IS God.  While most sober commentaries will reflect on the heavenly description of this Angel (rainbow crown, clothed in clouds, sunlit face, fiery feet) they will not go as far as you in equating him to Jesus because of this simple fact relegating the person here as a messenger from God.  So God is not the only one who can handle a scroll; but Jesus is the only one who break the seven Seals on the Scroll the Father has written the desolations He has decreed upon it.

The Man in Linen in Daniel 10-12 accepts worship from Daniel, while an Angel in Revelation will not accept worship from John, which leads many to equate the Man in Linen to Jesus, and I think that is an equation which is true.  However, there is only the slightest correlation between Him and the mighty Angel of Rev 10 - "water."  And when we look at that small detail, again, there is not a one-for-one correlation which would indicate they are one and the same person.  Furthermore along that line, while the witnesses to Jesus' appearances upon the earth thought they were seeing a ghost, it does not mean Jesus can take on other forms like a ghost, so that you jump the hurtle having Jesus, who is God, as appearing as a messenger from God.

 

Now in this rebuttal to your attack, I have been very specific.  This is in stark contrast to your rebuttal of my defense which merely exclaims 'it is not sound.'  Oh really?  (Which is the origin to O'Reillius in my name.)  How so?  Without specifics, no determination can be made as to the validity of your argument.  Specifics are important, because without them, we cannot see all the errors you make or contain in your assumptions which go into such a preposterous, blanket dismissal.  And you make a lot of errors, which is why I can dismiss yet another attack of yours upon my particular eschatology as being without merit, specious, and lacking credibilty.

[enoob57]

With all these views and what not, scurrying about like mice in a fresh mowed field, I would like to share this one little concept:
The time of Jesus coming is to be of personal import... For all positions surely have continuity of wanting to see Jesus   
That being said if you wish to believe you must suffer the wrath of God to do so then it is as you wish BUT you must ignore
this passage of Scripture

1 Th 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come
KJV
and this

1 Th 4:18
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV
Love, Steven
 

[enoob57]

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2015 at 7:00 PM, Ezra said:

Something which is easily forgotten is that the seven trumpets of Revelation are heralding extremely severe JUDGMENTS.  On the other hand "the trump of God" (also called "the last trump") is heralding ultimate SALVATION -- the perfection and glorification of the saints.  Therefore there is no way that they can be placed together or mistaken for each other.

This is so with the understanding of Scripture
2 Co 6:14
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
KJV
point being in and of itself made  

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2015 at 7:11 PM, bopeep1909 said:

Good point. 

He has lots of them  

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2015 at 7:31 PM, OneLight said:

 

No, it is not.  What is often tragedy for one, is a blessing for another.  Humans think in liner means.  God can do as He pleases with what He wants.

God has so divided light from dark that the two can never be in the same place! In this unity Scripture abides... 
1 Th 5:5
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
KJV
this is one of the major divisions of Scripture we are to ascertain and keep
2 Ti 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV
This is of the same issues our charismatic family have fallen into.... they say the sign gifts are for today
yet the word says
Jn 10:37-38
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe
the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
KJV
framed in the whole unit of thought here
Jn 20:29-31
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that
have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his
disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus
is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
KJV
One does not have to be a astute scholar to realize the foundation being set forth by the will of Christ is what is written
not what is seen... satisfying the context and division set forth in verse 29 'having seen' division 'having not seen' yet
both believing through faith to the salvation of their souls ...

1 Pe 1:8-9

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
KJV

Love, Steven

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On June 5, 2016 at 0:57 AM, inchrist said:

Well actually I gave you a number of verses not one, I merely just picked one out of the number of verses I gave you. Here it is again if you can recall:

Mark 13:24 -25

Acts 2:19 -20

Joel 2:30

Luke 21:25-26

Matthew 24:29

Yes we should take the natural reading of scripture first, least we violate the Greek and Hebrew syntax which you clearly did, what you presented is how one twist scriptures to fit a theology.

First of all, you act like I've run away from this as if I haven't addressed it.   

Quote

 

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus links the sun/moon/star event as happening right after the truncated, highly shortened, Great Tribulation - AND - more importantly, He then goes right to the Sign of the Son of Man and the gathering of the Elect.  This matches other NT prophecy that we are gathered up on the Day of the Lord.

The sun/moon/star sign is most evident in the book of Revelation's broad overview of the end-times in chapters 4-11 (exclusive) with the sixth Seal.  There we see the 144,000 mentioned and suddenly from John's perspective, the Great Multitude appears in Heaven - coming out of the Great Tribulation in that opening parallel account in that book.

In the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' within the Book of Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive), we see that same mustering of the 144,000 as given with the sixth Seal, and the same Harvest of the Elect which results in the Great Multitude of the sixth Seal -AND THEN - fire and blood.

Those two Angels work to achieve what accompanies Jesus and His Army on the Day of the Lord as set forth in Joel chapter 2 before he gets to wonders and the sun/moo/star sign: two battles, one fought around Jerusalem and the other to the South around Bethlehem.  Armageddon is fought in the hill country of Ephraim and Bible prophecy never cites it as happening coincidentally on the Day of the Lord.

I know this won't change "inchrist's" mind, but I offer it as a sober response to his criticism, so as to defend Pre-Wrath eschatology.

Not only have I done so, the Olivet Discourse in Matthew is the keystone passage I use to link Daniel 9:27's midpoint abomination(s) desolation (found in Mt 24:15) to the "Sun/moon/star event" of the Day of the Lord in the sixth Seal (with Mt 24:29).  Jesus provides a linear sequence-of-events which puts what will happen with "specific and unique" events in their order.

That is absolutely no violation of syntax.  If you want to level that specious charge: be specific!  Show your work!  Let's get the reference books out!  I've got books at the PhD level on both languages by renowned experts in the field.

When I boil down what Jesus presents, stripping away descriptive language and a sideline narrative concerning those in Judea, it boils down to these main events.

• The midpoint abomination(s) desolation
• The Great Tribulation
• The "Sun/moon/star event" (announcing the Day of the Lord)
• The Sign of the Son of Man
• Jesus coming on the clouds
• Our being gathered up to Him.

The inclusion of the "Sun/moon/star event" in the sixth Seal is thus extremely important.  Because it comes then, we can sequence (not "time") the Day of the Lord into the broad overview contained in the Seal/Scroll Chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13).

The "Sun/moon/star event" is not worded exactly the same, but it does describe the same things happening the same way and in the same order.  This is a very good multiple account.  Like a second witness, it confirms the first, without plagiarizing it word-for-word.

The Sign of the Son of Man, hinted by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, is revealed as the scrolling of the sky.  One friend likened it to a dimensional rift, and I think he has an inspired point: to see the darkened night sky open up to the bright supernatural realm of Heaven from whence Jesus descends as He went up.

Jesus' next two events, like the first two are not specifically revealed in Revelation chapter 7:9-17, but as the Great Multitude arrives, their arrival is the natural result of the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ (which precedes the) and the Rapture of those who remain and are still alive (after the Great Tribulation).  An inference to the Great Tribulation also times the Great Multitude as coming 'out of' it by an Elder who explains it to John.  John did not ask; that bit of information comes from God so we can know this event is linked to what Jesus said on the Mount of Olives in His last major Discourse of His Ministry.

So I not only recall, I count on this most important end-time passage to tie together other prophetic, linear, end-time narratives.

There is much more to the Day of the Lord.  I have a whole chapter devoted to it.  There are more facets to this seminal Day, and it is beneficial to study it for wisdom and understanding.  I will relate more when I return home and have access to my computer and my books.