Why did the Geneva Bible start using the word "Pastor"?

[another_poster]

The words *pastor* and *shepherd* are interchangeable, so the word itself is not really a big issue. 

Etymology   late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French pastour, from Latin pastor ‘shepherd,’ from past- ‘fed, grazed,’ from the verb pascere .

Pastors are spiritual shepherds who ideally feed the flock with spiritual milk and meat. I say *ideally* because frequently today's pastors are entertainers and showmen, and rarely will they spend time one-on-one with each and every member of the flock attending to their individual needs (see Ezekiel 34:1-10 for their job description).  That is why churches need a plurality of elders.

 

The important thing to note (which generally escapes Christians) is that the SPIRITUAL GIFT is that of pastor or shepherd (Eph 4:11), but the OFFICE is that of elder/bishop. That is why Paul always speaks of elders when addressing the office, and these men should have the spiritual gifts of shepherding, preaching, and teaching, as well as taking oversight of the flock. 

 

At the same time, there is another spiritual gift, which is that of teaching, and yet another which is that of evangelism.  For example, Billy Graham was an evangelist, but not really a teacher, nor did he consider himself a pastor.

 

In the OT a entire tribe was assigned to that role. Yet we so often expect one person to do everything. Thankfully many are getting away from that. So many got burned out because of that. There was always supposed to be a team that did these things. Preachers were different to elders in NT times.

 

[carlos123]

Hi Ezra,

 

Thanks for participating in this discussion.

 

I'm tired of wrestling with the forum software here in that it tends to mess up my quotes so I am just going to quote the old fashioned way from now on.

 

@Ezra said "The words *pastor* and *shepherd* are interchangeable, so the word itself is not really a big issue."

 

Though I agree that the words "pastor" and "shepherd" are interchangeable in a strictly biblical sense, they are just two words even if one is Latin and the other English that pertains to a GIFT of shepherding in Ephesians 4:11, I do not agree that it is not a big issue which word we use to refer to those in the role of oversight in churches.  

 

As a matter of practical reality these words are not interchangeable. 

 

If I go into almost any church in the U.S. and ask "Who are your shepherds (plural)?" many folks won't have much of a clue as to what in the world I am asking.  Worse...some might immediately conclude that I am a trouble maker, a weirdo, or just plain wacky.

 

Now if I go into the same church and ask "Who is your Pastor (singular)?".  No problem at all.  Everyone will immediately understand who I am asking about.

 

Most understand the word "Pastor" as used in Ephesians 4:11 to refer to a POSITION of church leadership that one is ordained to NOT a gift.  

 

Why is that a problem?

 

First and foremost the Lord inspired Paul to write what he did and to say something specific by what he wrote.  Since Paul was referring to a GIFT when he used the Greek word poimēn (Strong's G4166) in Ephesians 4:11 and NOT a POSITION, to end up thinking that Paul was speaking of a POSITION rather than a GIFT is to misinterpret the Word at best and to obscure and twist what the Lord meant to say through Paul at worst.  

 

Leading to a faulty practice of church respecting the role of oversight.  

 

Faulty in what sense?  

 

When a GIFT is looked upon as a POSITION and not a GIFT then the gift gets tied to the position such that anyone having the gift of shepherding is considered out of line to practice that gift when they do not have the position.  We diminish the role of that gift in the life of the church when we limit it's operation to a position.  

 

Worse we elevate those having a POSITION above those who do not have said position instead of looking upon them as being no less and no more than members of the body like any other member of the body but with a different gift and role.  Equating a GIFT with a POSITION is a reflection of our tendency as fallen creatures to exalt one man above another.  

 

The scriptural reality is that the GIFT of pastoring should and can be exercised, by anyone having that gift, whether the gifted person has the POSITION of being an Elder or not.  In other words GIFTS are not tied to a POSITION.  Most Pastors today will frown upon if not outright deny anyone, who is not a duly recognized and ordained Pastor, the opportunity to practice the gift of shepherding since the only one in modern church practice who is seen fit to operate in that gift are recognized and ordained Pastors. 

 

I guess what I am saying Ezra is that as a matter of practical reality there IS a difference in meaning between these two words such that they are not interchangeable.

 

The difference in meaning as a matter of practical reality is significant.

 

The GIFT of shepherding is NOT seen to be equivalent to the POSITION of Pastor as one might think they would be IF these two words meant the same thing where one could be used as readily to refer to the same thing as the other.  

 

Now one might well wonder if I am making a mountain out of a molehill by making an issue over which word we use to refer to church overseers to which I would say this. 

 

A GIFT is something that is to be exercised for the well being of the church whether one has a POSITION or not. 

 

If we view the word "Pastors" in Ephesians 4:11 to be referring to a POSITION, when in fact it refers to a GIFT, we then limit the exercise of that gift to being expressed only within and through a POSITION.  Any such limitation limits the Holy Spirit's work in and through members of the body that have the gift of shepherding.  

 

To use the word "Pastors" for those having oversight over churches, when said word has come to be understood by all as referring to a POSITION rather than a GIFT, is to perpetuate the biblically mistaken idea that the gift of shepherding can only be exercised by those who have a pastoral POSITION. 

 

Furthermore the whole notion of a modern day Pastor is that of one man oversight over a church.  I refer to what is generally known as the Head Pastor.  Just because many churches have a Pastor of this and a Pastor of that doesn't mean that they are practicing the biblical model of a multiplicity of overseers having the same authority over churches as seen in the New Testament.  

 

The GIFT of pastoring and it's proper operation within the body has been obscured and buried under the modern day understanding of the positional role of Pastor.  

 

My desire in starting this thread was to get help (through a discussion or through any source material others might have known about that I did not) as to how this shift (from seeing the GIFT of pastoring become a POSITION in the understanding of Christians) came about. 

 

I think the Geneva Bible starting to use the word "Pastor" in place of "shepherd" may have been a pivotal moment in time when the corruption of the role of oversight as the Lord intended got incorporated into our bibles through a change from the use of the word "shepherds" to that of "Pastor" in Ephesians 4:11.  

 

Or at least it would seem so.  That was my interest in discussing this. 

 

Carlos

[Guest shiloh357]

You are misunderstanding.    If you read Ephesians 4 a little closer, it is not saying that "pastor"  is a "gift"  in the same sense that "teaching"  is a gift in Romans 12.    Paul is saying that PASTORS are a gift to the body of Christ.  Evangelist isn't a gift.  He is a person.   God calls a person to be a Pastor and Evangelists and those men are gifts to the church  same holds true for Apostle, Prophet and Teacher.

 

 

What is the difference in the role of a shepherd vs. the role of a pastor in your estimation?  Can you itemize a list of the responsibilities of shepherd vs. a pastor's responsibilities?

[ayin jade]

Ask who is your shepherd or shepherds and you will be looked at funny. Ask who is your pastor or pastors and folks will know what you mean. But it has to do with your odd choice of wording and not because a pastor is alone. There are multiple pastors at many churches. Every church I attended had a body of elders who were in leadership with the pastor. Not one man over all as you seem to think. 

 

I have to wonder if you got into a fight with a pastor and have this vendetta against pastors now. Because that is how it comes across.

[carlos123]

 

 

 

There is absolutely no problem and nothing good is served by trying to manufacture a problem that doesn't exist.

If you think nothing good can come out of discussing this issue I guess I am somewhat perplexed as to why you are participating in this thread Shiloh.If you don't like what I wanted to discuss or think it can serve no purpose by all means you are free to not participate in this discussion at all. I mean why in the world would you participate in a discussion you view as utterly useless?

 

Why did you ask for discussion when you clearly don't want discussion. An answer was given and you don't like the answer. The answer was repeated and now you decide they shouldn't be involved in the discussion.

 

 

You are making an aweful lot of assumptions Another_Poster.  

 

"you clearly don't want discussion" WRONG. 

 

"you don't like the answer." WRONG.

 

"you decide they shouldn't be involved in the the discussion." WRONG. 

 

I wish you wouldn't assume and instead that you would ask me whether this or that is true instead. 

 

I DO want discussion which means a give and take, a challenge to my thinking and that of others, etc. 

 

Whether I personally like an answer or not has absolutely nothing to do with anything.  What kind of discussion would it be if I insisted on everyone giving me only answers that I liked?  That's ridiculous. 

 

As for me deciding that Shiloh shouldn't be involved in this discussion why did I say what I did to him Another_Poster (not to mention that it is not within my power on this forum to stop anyone from participating in a thread)?  

 

It was because he said "nothing good is served by trying to manufacture a problem that doesn't exist.".  That left me perplexed as to why he was involved in this discussion at all which led me to suggest that it would be better for him not to be involved in this discussion since...he did not apparently see much value to it. 

 

It would further profitable discussion if you would not assume things about my motives or desires Another_Poster.  

 

Carlos

 

 

 

 

[carlos123]

You are misunderstanding.    If you read Ephesians 4 a little closer, it is not saying that "pastor"  is a "gift"  in the same sense that "teaching"  is a gift in Romans 12.    Paul is saying that PASTORS are a gift to the body of Christ.  Evangelist isn't a gift.  He is a person.   God calls a person to be a Pastor and Evangelists and those men are gifts to the church  same holds true for Apostle, Prophet and Teacher.

 

You say that Ephesians 4:11 is not talking about pastor as a gift in the same sense that teaching is a gift as mentioned in Romans 12. 

 

Yet I have to ask why not?

 

Romans 12:6-8 (KJV) 

 

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

 

 

While the verses in Romans 12 do not mention shepherds (or pastors if you will) as is mentioned in Ephesians 4:11, the gifts of prophecy and teaching ARE mentioned (along with others). 

 

The Greek words which are rendered "prophecy" and "teaching" in Romans 12:6-8 are G4394 and G1321 respectively.  

 

In Ephesians 4:11 the Greek words rendered "prophets" and "teachers" are G4396 and G1320 respectively. 

 

Prophets are one's who have the gift of prophecy and prophesy. 

 

Teachers are one's who have the gift of teaching and teach.  

 

1 Corinthians 12 makes things even clearer. 

 

 

1 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV) 

 

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (KJV) 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets(G4396), thirdly teachers(G1320), after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets(G4396)? are all teachers(G1320)? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. 

 

We see Paul mentioning some of the same gifts he mentions in Ephesians 4:11 in 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 and this time he even uses the same exact Greek words!  1 Corinthians 12 is talking about GIFTS...NOT POSITIONS. 

 

Ephesians 4:8-11 

 

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

In context Ephesians is clearly talking about GIFTS NOT POSITIONS. 

 

An apostle is one who has the gift of apostleship. 

A prophet is one who has the gift of prophecy. 

An evangelist is one who has the gift of evangelism. 

A pastor is one who has the gift of pastoring (i.e. shepherding).

A teacher is one who has the gift of teaching. 

 

There is no support whatever in any of the above verses for the idea that any of these terms describe a POSITION of church government.  

 

They describe people who are gifted.  The gifts is what the Lord gave the church or one could righly also say that the Lord gave people with these gifts to the church as well.  But saying that the Lord gives these particular type of persons to the church does not imply that these people are only able to operate within a POSITION.  

 

Nowhere is there any support for the idea that these gifts are given to only ONE person within a local body.  They are given according to the need of the body and as the Lord wills.  

 

In the New Testament church there were many who were gifted as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and/or teachers.  No where is there a single example of a church that only had ONE of each within the body where it could only have ONE and never more.  

 

For that matter there is no example of a church that only had ONE person at the top of a hirearchy with the gift of shepherding in operation (i.e. in line with the modern idea of a Head Pastor).  

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you meant to say Shiloh and went overboard in my response (I have been known to do that in the past).  If that is the case please correct my overly wordy response and bring me back to the point of your post if you would be so kind as to do that for me.  

 

Carlos

[Guest shiloh357]

No, you are fundamentally mistaken.  The Apostle is the gift.   God has gifted the body of Christ with men he has called to be apostles, pastors, evangelists, etc.     They are the gift.  

 

Gifts of the spirit are a totally different thing.   The "apostle"  is not a gift of the spirit.   The "pastor" is not a gift of the spirit.  The men God calls to those vocations are gifts to the body of Christ.

 

You are employing some very sloppy hermeneutics to make your point. 

 

Actually the description of a pastor is given by Paul to Timothy and it gives specific moral qualifications, which defies it being a spiritual gift.   The bishop (pastor) is expected to manage the congregation and Paul says several things about his moral character and his role as husband and father as qualifications for the role of pastor.

 

So "pastor"  IS a position and no amount theological gymnastics on your part will change that.   The same goes for the role of deacon.

[carlos123]

Ask who is your shepherd or shepherds and you will be looked at funny. Ask who is your pastor or pastors and folks will know what you mean. But it has to do with your odd choice of wording and not because a pastor is alone. There are multiple pastors at many churches. Every church I attended had a body of elders who were in leadership with the pastor. Not one man over all as you seem to think. 

 

I have to wonder if you got into a fight with a pastor and have this vendetta against pastors now. Because that is how it comes across.

 

By your own words...THE PASTOR.  The ONE man not multiple men. 

 

As for your wondering...well...that is pure conjecture.  I could wonder as well all kinds of things about you too Ayin Jade but what would be the point of such pointless wondering other than to impugn your character and cast you in a bad light?  Such wondering is pointless and doesn't serve to further fruitful discussion. 

 

Still...if you must know...I think most Pastors I have ever been under would have a far better appreciation of my attitude and my willingness to submit to their authority while in churches that they pastor than you have of me.  

 

Fight with Pastors?  Vendetta against Pastors?  

 

Such innuendos and fleshly implications tell me that you have completely, and I mean completely, missed the thrust of what I have been saying in this thread.  It's like you haven't even read what I have said at all such that you have completely misread my heart. 

 

I have been saying that the modern day role of Pastor is unbiblical.  Not in line with the biblical model of what oversight is supposed to be about.  

 

And that I have been interested in discussing why the Geneva Bible tossed out the use of "shepherds" in Ephesians 4:11 and took up "pastors" instead as a possible moment in time when a corruption of the role of oversight worked it's way into the text. 

 

A real concern and a real issue that has nothing to do with any so-called desire to fight with Pastors, to not be in submission, and other nonsense.  

 

Sigh...

 

Carlos

[carlos123]

Hi Shiloh, 

 

At the risk of straying even further from what I originally wanted to discuss in this thread...though it is somewhat relevant I think.  

 

No, you are fundamentally mistaken.  The Apostle is the gift.   God has gifted the body of Christ with men he has called to be apostles, pastors, evangelists, etc.     They are the gift.  

 

Gifts of the spirit are a totally different thing.   The "apostle"  is not a gift of the spirit.   The "pastor" is not a gift of the spirit.  The men God calls to those vocations are gifts to the body of Christ.

 

Hmm...I appreciate you bringing this up Shiloh.  It's making me think...which is not at all a bad thing .  

 

I've never heard anyone say that the gift is separate and a totally different thing than the man who has the gift.  That's a new one for me. 

 

To me the gift and the man are as one where the two cannot be separated.  

 

Let me think about that some.  

 

Carlos

[carlos123]

What is the difference in the role of a shepherd vs. the role of a pastor in your estimation?  Can you itemize a list of the responsibilities of shepherd vs. a pastor's responsibilities?

 

As I understand it Shiloh there is no difference. 

 

The role of a shepherd (a la Ephesians 4:11) is to shepherd the sheep.  

 

The role of a pastor (a la Ephesians 4:11) is also to shepherd the sheep. 

 

These two words are obviously different words but they define the same underlying Greek word in Ephesians 4:11.  

 

What is involved in shepherding / pastoring?  

 

Well...to do what a shepherd would do for the sheep but where it is applied to people figuratively. 

 

Shepherds / pastors lead the sheep to water and green pastures.

Shepherds / pastors protect the sheep from wolves and other predators. 

Shepherds / pastors search out lost sheep and bring them back to the flock.

Shepherds / pastors help maintain peace between members of the flock.

Shepherds / pastors exert discipline over the sheep when any of them get out of line. 

 

I think those are the essential tasks of this role in the church.  

 

Carlos