WN: Vatican signs first treaty with 'State of Palestine'

[thereselittleflower]

Actually I was not giving you any opinions.  I have studied the Palestinian/Arab onging war of attrition against Israel for over 20 years and have forgotten more about this topic than you likely know.   

 

What I have provided is the CORRECT history and sequence of events.   You appeal to an anti-Semitic organization that is hostile to Israel as  if they are an objective source for understanding of this conflict and the security fence.

 

The security fence is what it is, and what the Israeli gov't calls it and has always called it.  I am being kind in assuming that you don't know what you're talking about and are simply ignorant regarding the actual history and dynamics of this conflict.  I am running form the assumption that you don't believe that Israel is an illegitimate nation.

 

My postion is correct.  Your position is wrong and based on ignorance and wrong information, very poorly applied.

 

 

I do appreciate the opportunity of discussing all of this with you.  I find it to be a fascinating topic.   But I must ask, PLEASE be careful of throwing around the "antisemetic" accusation.  I have seen it used way too often and way to carelessly all over the internet as an inappropriate way to silence and invalidate opinions and sources that do not agree with the typical zionist viewpoint .    i don't find that to be at all helpful in keeping discussions open and inviting.  I hope you understand and do not take offense at my request.

 

In regards to the UN, what the UN addresses are the actions of governments, in this particular case the governments of the State of Israel and the State of Palestine.  A government is not a people, a government is not a race.  It is a political entity with political objectives.  To express concern about how a governmental entity is behaving has nothing to do with racism because a government is not a race.   The UN itself is what granted Jewish people the right to create a State in the ancient land once promised to Abraham.  That is hardly an "antisemetic" action in relationship to the Jewish people. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.  It can, however, be seen as an antisemetic action in relationship to the other semetic peoples living in that area of the world, for it took land that belonged to other semetic people and gave it to the Jewish people.   This is a sword that cuts both ways.

 

I understand that you believe you are providing correct information, and this is not merely your own opinion.  I am most interested in truth.  What I am attempting to do is to determine how well your statements line up with the actual facts, and so I have been doing some reading.  It would be most helpful if you could provide actual, authoritative sources that support your statements that I might be able read through.  And thank you in advance.  

[Guest shiloh357]

First of all, Israel is a sovereign nation, not a state.    The Palestinians do not have a nation and so do not treat the as equal or the same as Israel.   They are still refugees and still have refugee status.  They are still living in disputed (not occupied) territories still known as the west bank and gaza.

 

Governments are run by people not robots and Israel's government is constantly berated and hypocritically treated by other nations as a racist, Zionist government.  Government or not, the rule about governments  that you cite never seems to apply to Israel's government.

 

The UN as we know it today is not the same as it was in 1947.  The world has completely changed in its treatment of Israel to the point that many in the now think that Israel nationhood was a mistake.   The UN is an anti-Semitic organization and has passed more resolutions against Israel than against any other nation.

 

In the Yom Kippur war, when Israel was a thread's breadth from annihilation, the UN said nothing.    When the tide turned and Israel pushed the Egyptians to within 40 miles of Cairo and pushed the Syrians to within 30 miles of Damascus, and it looked like Israel was going to take both capitals, suddenly the UN calls for a ceasefire.

 

The UN only ever calls for investigations into the deaths of Palestinians even if the Palestinians were killed while committing terrorism, but never calls for any investigations into terrorist attacks committed by Israelis.   The UN is grossly anti-Semitic and that is the only word for it.

 

You have some other facts wrong as well.   No one took any land away from anyone to give it to the Jews.   The Jews bought their land from absentee Turkish landowners.   The land that Israel sits on now was swamp and desert and uninhabited by anyone.   There were a few farms that the Jews bought from Arab farmers and the Jews paid over $1100 per acre when better dirt was only $100 per acre in the US.   Israel is sitting land that they bought, irrigated and swamps they dried up.     So no land was confiscated to create the nation of Israel.

[thereselittleflower]

First of all, Israel is a sovereign nation, not a state.    The Palestinians do not have a nation and so do not treat the as equal or the same as Israel.   They are still refugees and still have refugee status.  They are still living in disputed (not occupied) territories still known as the west bank and gaza.

 

Governments are run by people not robots and Israel's government is constantly berated and hypocritically treated by other nations as a racist, Zionist government.  Government or not, the rule about governments  that you cite never seems to apply to Israel's government.

 

The UN as we know it today is not the same as it was in 1947.  The world has completely changed in its treatment of Israel to the point that many in the now think that Israel nationhood was a mistake.   The UN is an anti-Semitic organization and has passed more resolutions against Israel than against any other nation.

 

In the Yom Kippur war, when Israel was a thread's breadth from annihilation, the UN said nothing.    When the tide turned and Israel pushed the Egyptians to within 40 miles of Cairo and pushed the Syrians to within 30 miles of Damascus, and it looked like Israel was going to take both capitals, suddenly the UN calls for a ceasefire.

 

The UN only ever calls for investigations into the deaths of Palestinians even though the Palestinians are terrorists, but never calls for any investigations into terrorist attacks committed by Israelis.   The UN is grossly anti-Semitic and that is the only word for it.

 

You have some other facts wrong as well.   No one took any land away from anyone to give it to the Jews.   The Jews bought their land from absentee Turkish landowners.   The land that Israel sits on now was swamp and desert and uninhabited by anyone.   There were a few farms that the Jews bought from Arab farmers and the Jews paid over $1100 per acre when better dirt was only $100 per acre in the US.   Israel is sitting land that they bought, irrigated and swamps they dried up.     So no land was confiscated to create the nation of Israel.

 

Shilo, do you have authoritative sources that support your statements  I can look at?

[missmuffet]

First of all, Israel is a sovereign nation, not a state.    The Palestinians do not have a nation and so do not treat the as equal or the same as Israel.   They are still refugees and still have refugee status.  They are still living in disputed (not occupied) territories still known as the west bank and gaza.

 

Governments are run by people not robots and Israel's government is constantly berated and hypocritically treated by other nations as a racist, Zionist government.  Government or not, the rule about governments  that you cite never seems to apply to Israel's government.

 

The UN as we know it today is not the same as it was in 1947.  The world has completely changed in its treatment of Israel to the point that many in the now think that Israel nationhood was a mistake.   The UN is an anti-Semitic organization and has passed more resolutions against Israel than against any other nation.

 

In the Yom Kippur war, when Israel was a thread's breadth from annihilation, the UN said nothing.    When the tide turned and Israel pushed the Egyptians to within 40 miles of Cairo and pushed the Syrians to within 30 miles of Damascus, and it looked like Israel was going to take both capitals, suddenly the UN calls for a ceasefire.

 

The UN only ever calls for investigations into the deaths of Palestinians even though the Palestinians are terrorists, but never calls for any investigations into terrorist attacks committed by Israelis.   The UN is grossly anti-Semitic and that is the only word for it.

 

You have some other facts wrong as well.   No one took any land away from anyone to give it to the Jews.   The Jews bought their land from absentee Turkish landowners.   The land that Israel sits on now was swamp and desert and uninhabited by anyone.   There were a few farms that the Jews bought from Arab farmers and the Jews paid over $1100 per acre when better dirt was only $100 per acre in the US.   Israel is sitting land that they bought, irrigated and swamps they dried up.     So no land was confiscated to create the nation of Israel.

Thank you for educating me.There was a lot of information here that I did not know.I am always eager to gain new information.It sounds like Obama and the UN are two peas in a pod.

[ayin jade]

 

But I must ask, PLEASE be careful of throwing around the "antisemetic" accusation.  I have seen it used way too often and way to carelessly all over the internet as an inappropriate way to silence and invalidate opinions and sources that do not agree with the typical zionist viewpoint .  

 

 

Here is one antisemetic comment.

 

 

It harkens to an antisemetic view.

[Guest shiloh357]

security fence info:   http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/24_fence.html

 

 

The Jews purchased the Land.  It was not take from the Palestinian Arabs   http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf/_early_palestine_zionists_land.php

[FresnoJoe]

 What about the fact that most very rich bankers are American and Jewish, How does that fit into this 'victim' story ?

 

?

 

Ah~! Beloved, Are You Jealous Of The Jew?

 

Thus says the LORD, "For three transgressions of Edom and for four I will not revoke its punishment, Because he pursued his brother with the sword, While he stifled his compassion; His anger also tore continually, And he maintained his fury forever. Amos 1:11-15 (NASB)

 

Like The Islamic

 

Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood. Joel 3:19 (NASB)

 

Too?

 

"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. John 4:22 (NASB)

 

~

 

Believe

 

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6 (KJV)

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (KJV)

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[FresnoJoe]

PLEASE be careful of throwing around the "antisemetic" accusation.... 

 

I have seen it used way too often and way to carelessly all over the internet....

 

as an inappropriate way to silence and invalidate opinions....

 

and sources that do not agree with....

 

the typical Zionist viewpoint....

 

 

Amen~!

 

“In those days and at that time,

when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

 

I will gather all nations

and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.

 

There I will put them on trial

for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel,

 

because they scattered my people among the nations

and divided up my land.

 

They cast lots for my people

and traded boys for prostitutes;

they sold girls for wine to drink. Joel 3:1-3 (NIV)

 

The Classic Zionist

 

The Lord will roar from Zion

and thunder from Jerusalem;

the earth and the heavens will tremble.

But the Lord will be a refuge for his people,

a stronghold for the people of Israel.

 

“Then you will know that I, the Lord your God,

dwell in Zion, my holy hill.

Jerusalem will be holy;

never again will foreigners invade her. Joel 3:16-17 (NIV)

 

With HIS Great Love For Israel

 

“But I will leave among you

            A humble and lowly people,

            And they will take refuge in the name of the LORD.

“The remnant of Israel will do no wrong

            And tell no lies,

            Nor will a deceitful tongue

            Be found in their mouths;

            For they will feed and lie down

            With no one to make them tremble.”

Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion!

            Shout in triumph, O Israel!

            Rejoice and exult with all your heart,

            O daughter of Jerusalem!

The LORD has taken away His judgments against you,

            He has cleared away your enemies.

            The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst;

            You will fear disaster no more.

In that day it will be said to Jerusalem:

            “Do not be afraid, O Zion;

            Do not let your hands fall limp.

“The LORD your God is in your midst,

            A victorious warrior.

            He will exult over you with joy,

            He will be quiet in His love,

            He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy. Zephaniah 3:12-17 (NASB)

 

And Why I Even Bother To Post About It

 

And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, Revelation 20:9 (ESV)

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Proof]

I don't have anything to add, Shilo really seems to be holding his own here, but man, this one has really gotten good!

[thereselittleflower]

First of all, Israel is a sovereign nation, not a state.    The Palestinians do not have a nation and so do not treat the as equal or the same as Israel.   They are still refugees and still have refugee status.  They are still living in disputed (not occupied) territories still known as the west bank and gaza.

 

Governments are run by people not robots and Israel's government is constantly berated and hypocritically treated by other nations as a racist, Zionist government.  Government or not, the rule about governments  that you cite never seems to apply to Israel's government.

 

The UN as we know it today is not the same as it was in 1947.  The world has completely changed in its treatment of Israel to the point that many in the now think that Israel nationhood was a mistake.   The UN is an anti-Semitic organization and has passed more resolutions against Israel than against any other nation.

 

In the Yom Kippur war, when Israel was a thread's breadth from annihilation, the UN said nothing.    When the tide turned and Israel pushed the Egyptians to within 40 miles of Cairo and pushed the Syrians to within 30 miles of Damascus, and it looked like Israel was going to take both capitals, suddenly the UN calls for a ceasefire.

 

The UN only ever calls for investigations into the deaths of Palestinians even if the Palestinians were killed while committing terrorism, but never calls for any investigations into terrorist attacks committed by Israelis.   The UN is grossly anti-Semitic and that is the only word for it.

 

You have some other facts wrong as well.   No one took any land away from anyone to give it to the Jews.   The Jews bought their land from absentee Turkish landowners.   The land that Israel sits on now was swamp and desert and uninhabited by anyone.   There were a few farms that the Jews bought from Arab farmers and the Jews paid over $1100 per acre when better dirt was only $100 per acre in the US.   Israel is sitting land that they bought, irrigated and swamps they dried up.     So no land was confiscated to create the nation of Israel.

 

If I may clarify something you said above - it seems you are saying since governments are run by people that this means then any criticisms against the actions of a government are actually against the people as a whole in some sort of racist manner?  It appears you are saying that because the government of Israel is made up of Jews, then if someone criticizes it, they are actually making anti semitic statements about the Jewish people because Jewish people run the Israeli government.     Wouldn't the same be true when someone criticizes let's say, the Lebanese government, since the Lebanese government is made up of Lebanese, and the Lebanese are also a semitic people?

 

IMHO, to claim that criticisms of the way a government behaves are tantamount to being anti semitic isn't logical. If we extend such reasoning to other races, then every time we criticize the French, we are being racist. Every time we criticize a  black person, we are being racist, everytime we criticize a white person we are being racist, etc, etc, etc.    People make bad decisions all the time.  Criticizing them for those bad decisions has nothing to do with being anti-that person's race because it has nothing to do with their race, only their bad decisions.  It is simply being critical. So I see nothing logical about claiming that simply because the UN has passed more resolutions against Israel than anyone else,  that automatically means it is anti semitic.    As I have said before, I am interested in the truth.  In searching for the truth of this matter, logically speaking, one would need to look at those resolutions to understand their actual cause before coming to such conclusions regarding anti semitism.

 

I think you meant to say "into terrorist attacks committed AGAINST Israelis."

 

As I said before, truth matters to me, so in regards to your statements about the land and how it was acquired by the Jewish people, I did some additional research.  I would like to share what I have found.

 

Regarding the issue of whether or not the Land was taken away from the Palestinians or not, or purchased from absentee Turkish landowners - while in some cases I found this to be true, I did not find this to the the only method by which land was obtained by Jewish settlers.   I also found, contrary to your contention that the land Israel now sits on was swamp and desert and uninhabited by anyone, that the opposite was actually true.  The prominent Jewish author of the 19th century, Ahad Ha'Am, visited Palestine in 1891 expecting to find the exact conditions you described.  What he found, however was something quite different:

 

“We abroad are used to believing Eretz Yisrael [the Land of Israel] is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed, and anyone who wishes to purchase land there may come and purchase as much as he desires. But in truth this is not the case. Throughout the country, it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains that are not fit to grow anything but fruit trees – and this only after hard labor and great expense…”

 

He also wrote:

 

"[The Jewish settlers] treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamelessly for no sufficient reason, and even take pride in doing so. The Jews were slaves in the land of their Exile, and suddenly they found themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that only exists in a land like Turkey. This sudden change has produced in their hearts an inclination towards repressive tyranny, as always happens when slave rules." '

 

 

In 1939, David Hacohen said this:

 

"I remember being one of the first of our comrades [of the Ahdut Ha'avodah] to get to London after the first World War. ... There I became a socialist. ... [in Palestine] I had to fight my friends on the issue of Jewish socialism, to defend the fact that I would not accept Arabs in my trade union, the Histadrut; to defend preaching to the housewives that they not buy at [Palestinian] Arab stores, to defend the fact that we stood guard at the orchards to prevent [Palestinian] Arab workers from getting jobs there. .... To pour kerosene on the [Palestinian] Arab tomatoes; to attack Jewish housewives in the markets and smash the Arab eggs they had bought; to praise to the skies the Keneen Kayemet [Jewish National Fund] that sent Hankin to Beirut to buy land from absentee effendi [landlords] and to throw the fellahin [peasants] off the land-- to buy dozens of dunums-- from an Arab is permitted, but to sell, God forbid, one Jewish dunam to an Arab is prohibited."

 

(a dunum is .23 acre)

 

Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 25

 

 

David Hacohen was leader of the Mapai, Israeli Worker Party, David Ben Gurion's social democratic party, the main political party of Labor Zionism.   From the early 1930s Ben Gurion was the main political leader in the Yishuv; directed Haganah in Israel's 1947-49 War of Independence, becoming first Prime Minister of Israel.  David Hacohen advocated that Jewish Zionist socialism would only be for the Jews, and not for Arabs.

 

 

In my readings regarding the actual partition allowing the formation of the State of Israel, I found the following:

 

In August [1947], after three months of conducting hearings and a general survey of the situation in Palestine, a majority report of the committee recommended that the region be partitioned into an Arab and a Jewish state, which should retain an economic union. An international regime was envisioned for Jerusalem.

The Arab delegations at the UN had sought to keep separate the issue of Palestine from the issue of Jewish refugees in Europe. During their visit, UNSCOP members were shocked by the extent ofLehi and Irgun violence, then at its apogee, and by the elaborate military presence attested by endemic barb-wire, searchlights, and armoured-car patrols. Committee members also witnessed the SS Exodus affair in Haifa and could hardly have remained unaffected by it. On concluding their mission, they dispatched a subcommittee to investigate Jewish refugee camps in Europe.^[44][45]The incident is mentioned in the report in relation to Jewish distrust and resentment concerning the British enforcement of the White Paper 1939.^[46]

 

In the final analysis, the partition granted a majority of the land to the Jewish people, and a minority of the land to the Palestinians, even though there were many more palestinians than jews in the land, in anticipation of the increasing numbers of Jewish immigrants.

 

The land allocated to the Arab State in the final plan included about 43% of Mandatory Palestine and consisted of all of the highlands, except for Jerusalem, plus one-third of the coastline. The highlands contain the major aquifers of Palestine, which supplied water to the coastal cities of central Palestine, including Tel Aviv. The Jewish State was to receive 56% of Mandatory Palestine, a slightly larger area to accommodate the increasing numbers of Jews who would immigrate there.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

 

This was land taken from control of the Palestinian Arabs and given to the Jewish people because of the partition.     Is it any surprise that they would have rejected the partition? Logically speaking, it would be perfectly reasonable to expect any people, which found itself facing an outside will being imposed upon it, taking away control of a significant portion of its land, to reject such action.

 

I also found the reaction by the UNSCOP members to the Lehi and Irgun interesting.   The Lehi and Irgun were 2 of the zionist terror gangs in action before the partition, along with the Stern gang and the Haganah. Under the direction of the Haganah, the Irgun were responsible for the King David Hotel bombing, one of the most, and some say the most, infamous terrorist attack of the last century, and the deadliest attack against the British in the history of the Mandate.

 

"It has been called one of the most lethal terrorist attacks of the 20th century."

 

"91 people of various nationalities were killed and 46 were injured."  

 

This attack was celebrated in Israel in 2006:

 

 

In July 2006, right-wing Israelis including former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former members of Irgun attended a 60th anniversary celebration of the bombing, which was organized by the Menachem Begin Centre. The British Ambassador in Tel Aviv and the Consul-General in Jerusalem complained, saying

 

"We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated." 

 

...The Irgun's activities were recognized as terrorism by MI5. The Irgun has been viewed as a terrorist organization or organization which carried out terrorist acts. In particular the Irgun was branded a terrorist organisation by Britain, the 1946 Zionist Congress and the Jewish Agency.

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

 

 

I realize my findings and quotes  are not what you would like to hear.    My search, however,  is for the truth, where ever that may lead me.

Edited July 4, 2015 by thereselittleflower