firestormx Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted July 18, 2015 So why are they're Christians among us who condemn other brother's and sister's in Christ for not following the Laws of the Old Testaments? And how do they themselves follow every Old Testament Law? Or Just the ones they use to condemn others? Like I said, when I ask these questions of them I get no answers from them. I want answers. I agree with Shiloh in post 19. Maybe I am wrong but you seem frustrated over this. I once stumbled over the law. People kept saying I had to obey the law and long story short I almost walked away from God under the weight of it of having to keep the law. It hurt me and my walk very badly for a long time. This is a touchy subject for me, but as I said, you seem frustrated. So I will attempt a deeper explanation of how it should be understood with the hope of encouraging you. As Shiloh, said " it is the moral/ethical laws we are to keep ". I am sure that Shiloh or George or any of a number of others could explain this so much better than I will attempt to now, so please bear with me. A big problem with this entire subject that a lot of people have IMO is a lack of understanding of the crucifixion. I don't mean that in an ugly way, just trying to say that people don't get the crucifixion like they should. They don't understand Jesus effect on things. Remember, we can't do things our way. We must do things God's way. For the purpose of being as brief as possible with such a huge topic I will summarize the law into 3 basic categories. The 3 are sacrificial, ceremonial, and moral. Between those 3 topics, covers almost all the law. In the Law it says a lot about sacrificing. One purpose or reason for sacrificing is given in Hebrews 9:22 . Which states without the shedding of blood there can be no remission/forgiveness of sin. So God's principle is that there must be shedding of blood for us to be forgiven. In the old testament this was accomplished by sacrificing animals for your transgressions against God's law. For sin is the transgression of the Law. You sacrificed the animals according to how the Law said to and the instructions are very precise. This was done over and over again because it was not good enough to end it for good. In the new testament Jesus did it once and for all. Do you see? It's the same principle that God set down in the beginning. Shedding of Blood for the remission of sin. Old testament = Animals , New testament = Jesus . The same principle of shedding of blood, but accomplished in different ways. In the old testament it was about what we did, we choose the animal, we took it to the temple. In the new testament it's not about what we do or did but the finished work of Jesus. So all the law say about sacrificing is fulfilled in Jesus. It's not that we are not keeping the law on sacrificing, it is kept through Jesus. Jesus is the better sacrifice. He did it once and set down for good till his enemies be made his footstool. There must be a shedding of blood if we are going to be forgiven, just like in the old testament, same principle, now it is in Jesus. The ceremonial parts of the law includes all the stuff about being clean, what to eat or wear. All that is in Jesus as well. See Jesus Said what he made clean was completely clean. Just like with the laws about sacrificing, the ceremonial laws are in Jesus as well. We are not made holy, or righteous by anything we do or don't do. We are only clean because Jesus cleaned us himself. It's not about keeping lists of do's and don'ts . It's about a relationship with Jesus. Does that mean we can do what we want? No as the bible and Paul declares clearly. The moral laws still apply. See, Jesus Fulfilled the Laws about sacrificing and ceremonial things. He fulfilled them. which simply means the same principles still apply, the shedding of blood and being clean but now it's fulfilled in Jesus We are clean not because we bath at a certain way , but because Jesus cleaned us. So the Old testament Principles still apply, be clean and shed blood for forgiveness of sin but the application is different. Before it was accomplished by following a list of do's and don't and now it's in Jesus. Now the moral law. The moral law is the stuff like the 10 commandments, don't commit homosexuality, bestiality. It's the moral/ or ethical stuff in the law. Now, In Genesis 6:5 God is looking down at the pre-flood world and saw the imagination and intent of the heart was evil continually. All the way back at the beginning in Genesis God was look at the intent, the heart if you will. So when Jesus comes he does the same thing. It's the motive, the reason. It's not what goes in the mouth but what come out, because what comes out comes from the heart, and it's the heart the God has always looked at. So, when Jesus was here he took the moral law back to it's intent. Which is why he said things like if you look at a person in lust you have already committed adultery in your heart. The same principle of love your neighbor, the same principle of don't commit adultery , but different application. See that's the problem, the thing people don't get. In all 3 cases the basic principle still applies, it just accomplished in the new testament in a better way, through Jesus. There still must be a shedding of blood, now it's in Christ. We still must be clean before God, now we are clean in Christ. We still must love the Lord with all our heart's our minds and our strength and our neighbor as our self or follow the moral teachings , but now it's about our heart/motive and it's accomplished in Jesus. I'm sure as I said someone could explain this better but I wanted to try. When people start talking about the law and telling people to obey it's every word and letter, or just picking and choosing what to obey, I have found it is normally because of a lack of understanding of the crucifixion. When people start on you about keeping the old testament law, in the way the old testament says to, just remember you have a better way which is Jesus Christ. The same basic principles still apply but now they are in Jesus. Firestormx Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,992 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,690 Content Per Day: 11.77 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2015 You guys are making me hungry and I just ate fifteen minutes ago, I had a hot sausage sandwich. (not pork again! says the health food guru) Oldzimm I love pork of every kind.I would make a very poor Jew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2015 we are no longer bound by the old laws. We live under God's grace. It would be more precise and scriptural to state "We are no longer bound by MANY of the old laws. We live under God's grace." Grace does not mean the absence of God's laws but the application of God's laws by the power of the Holy Spirit. Notice what the Holy Spirit postulated for Gentile Christians from the Law of Moses (Acts 15:28,29): For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That (1) ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and (2) from blood, and (3) from things strangled, and from (4) fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. There's four laws right there to which we are bound. But there are many more which we dare not violate. A spiritual Christian will read and study the Old Testament and discern which laws are still applicable under grace. What God has set aside is clearly shown in the epistle to the Hebrews (9:8-10): The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. It is primarily the Levitical priesthood and the system of gifts and sacrifices in the Temple, and feasts and holy days which were shadows of things to come, which were abolished when Christ died on the Cross. But God has not given Christians the liberty to engage in witchcraft, or incest, or fraud, or placing stumblingblocks before others, or any of those things which were sins under the Law of Moses. At the same time, under grace, Christians may eat all manner of meats (1 Tim 4:4,5). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I do not follow ANY OT law. I seek to follow Christ which is a much HIGHER calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2015 I do not follow ANY OT law. I seek to follow Christ which is a much HIGHER calling. Since the higher calling of Christ includes the Law of Christ, and the Law of Christ goes back to the OT, then obviously you do follow many OT laws, but are not conscious of that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted July 19, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I do not follow ANY OT law. I seek to follow Christ which is a much HIGHER calling. Since the higher calling of Christ includes the Law of Christ, and the Law of Christ goes back to the OT, then obviously you do follow many OT laws, but are not conscious of that fact. Being in agreement with and following are two slightly different things. I believe we agree in that I do those things contained within the law in many aspects because I seek to follow Christ. The OT scriptures spoke of Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted July 19, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted July 19, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2015 we are no longer bound by the old laws. We live under God's grace. It would be more precise and scriptural to state "We are no longer bound by MANY of the old laws. We live under God's grace." Grace does not mean the absence of God's laws but the application of God's laws by the power of the Holy Spirit. Notice what the Holy Spirit postulated for Gentile Christians from the Law of Moses (Acts 15:28,29): For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That (1) ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and (2) from blood, and (3) from things strangled, and from (4) fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. There's four laws right there to which we are bound. But there are many more which we dare not violate. A spiritual Christian will read and study the Old Testament and discern which laws are still applicable under grace. What God has set aside is clearly shown in the epistle to the Hebrews (9:8-10): The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. It is primarily the Levitical priesthood and the system of gifts and sacrifices in the Temple, and feasts and holy days which were shadows of things to come, which were abolished when Christ died on the Cross. But God has not given Christians the liberty to engage in witchcraft, or incest, or fraud, or placing stumblingblocks before others, or any of those things which were sins under the Law of Moses. At the same time, under grace, Christians may eat all manner of meats (1 Tim 4:4,5). well said Ezra and it's understanding of the things in scripture that will help others come to understanding.However we have been made new creatures in Christ Jesus and as such God has placed his laws on the inside of our hearts to follow. Meaning as such we are conscious of sinThe "rule" or law now is that we are to walk according to the new man created in Christ Jesus we are to walk in the Spirit and if we do so there is no law. In other words the knowledge of sin in the law will not condemn us any longer as we have been freed to walk in the Spirit and doing so we no longer are willingly practicing or walking in sin. Because we are doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord so there is no guilt or condemnation of the law against us as we are walking according to the new creature created in Christ Jesus the new man.But if we do not walk according to the new man in the Spirit and instead continue to walk according to the old sinful man we use to be before salvation still in our sins practicing and doing what is wrong (sin). Then the law is still there condemning us because we are yet in our sins. And the knowledge of sin contained in the law condemns us before God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted July 25, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted July 25, 2015 First Testament And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mark 12:30 Or Second Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:18 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Mark 12:31 Follow Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Isaiah 28:16 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 9:33 Jesus "Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4 (NASB) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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