The Lord Jesus Christ

[enoob57]

whoa I am not reading that

Scared?

for you ... yes!  Love, Steven

[Retrobyter]

See, the key word in John 1:1-5 is “en” which means “WAS.” (And this is where shiloh357 and I split.) I have absolutely no problem with the Logos being God. However, the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us! That made Him human! His “spirit” was His “breath!” His “soul” was His “breathing body!” When He “gave up the spirit” on the cross thirty-some years later, He "breathed His last” (as far as any other human being at that moment could tell).

Jesus claimed to be eternal life (John 14:6, 11:25-26)   And Jesus claimed to be the giver of eternal life (John 6: 47-58)   Only God is the source of eternal life and Jesus was able to grant eternal life while on earth. 

Any claim that Jesus was just  man and not God during his earthly ministry is heresy  and should be rejected by all true followers of Jesus.  If you deny the deity of Jesus, you are NOT Messianic.

Shalom, shiloh357.

Yeshua` also claimed to be GIVEN the right to give eternal life by His Father!

John 5:16-24

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV

So, you’re right that “only God is the source of eternal life"; however, that does NOT imply that Yeshua` is God! Furthermore, this being “equal with God” is in STANDING; that is, He is to be honored as the Judge of all the earth, just as God is to be so honored, since God, Yeshua`s Father, committed all judgment to the Son! And, when Yeshua` returns to this earth, He will first establish His own Kingdom in the Land of Israel, and then He shall GROW His Kingdom until it fills the earth and He becomes the King of kings and Master of masters! For He must reign until He has put all of His enemies under His feet!

Actually v. 21 doesn't say that Jesus was given the right to give eternal life.  Verse 21 says that Jesus can give eternal life to anyone he wishes according to his will.   He doesn't ask the father for permission.  Jesus doesn't merely claim to be the source of eternal life.  Jesus claims to BE eternal life.   Eternal life isn't length of time.   Eternal life is Jesus.  (John 11:25-26, 14:6). Jesus absolved sins as God in his own authority in several places in the Gospels, as well.     If anything John 5 actually augments Jesus' claim to be God.    Jesus as judge of the whole earth is standing in a position that only God can stand in.    Jesus was and is just as much God as the Father, any other position is heretical.

Shabbat shalom, shiloh357

You’re partly right, verse 21 by itself does not say "that Yeshua` was given the right to give eternal life.” HOWEVER, in conjunction with verses 19 and 20, it DOES say that Yeshua` did NOTHING but what He saw His Father do, INCLUDING giving eternal life!

 

  Yes, but it doesn't mean what you take it to mean.   Simply peppering me with your incompetent handling of the original languages isn't going to help you.   Jesus isn't saying that He was powerless to do anything on his own authority as God.   When Jesus said that He can do nothing but what he saw the Father doing, He is pointing to the complete unity of interest.   Jesus has no separate agenda than the Father.  Jesus was not a slave to the Father. Rather, he was unified with the Father in a single purpose. What Jesus said to his enemies who accused him of violating the Sabbath was that he was only doing what the Father was doing.  They accused him of blasphemy for calling God His Father, because they understood that to be claim to deity.   Jesus did not correct their understanding, but rather continued to double down on His claims to be God.   He stated that he was equal with the Father  in authority over the Sabbath, equal with the Father in authority to grant eternal life and equal with God in judgment.  All of those things in John 5 are clear references to Jesus' deity.

 

Shabbat shalom, shiloh357.

It is what it is. Yeshua` said that He ONLY did what His Father did. He may not “ask permission,” but He also doesn’t stray from what the Father wanted done. He was simply obedient to the end! “Powerless?” No, Yeshua` wasn’t powerless because His Father gave Him the power! He’s not a slave, but He IS the SON! Yeshua` said that they could ALL call Him their Father in the SAME WAY! He said that the Scriptures called them all “gods!” Does that mean that God would cease to be a “Trinity” and become a “Quadrity” or more?! Let’s face it: We don’t know as much as we think we know about this subject, and we have some VERY tough passages of Scripture that present formidable hurdles for your position:

 

Matthew 6:9-13

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
KJV

Luke 11:2-4

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
KJV

John 10:33-36

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
KJV

John 17:1-23

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
KJV

This was not just some "fancy footwork” in Yeshua`s arguments! And, so that you won’t think this was limited to Yeshua`s time here on earth during His first advent,...

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

[Retrobyter]

whoa I am not reading that

Scared?

for you ... yes!  Love, Steven

Shabbat shalom, Steven.

It’s really just a downward read. Read only those words on the right hand side of the equal sign, and you’ll be just fine. I know, I know, “it’s all Greek to you,” right? That’s what the Shabbat (Sabbath) is for! Take the time and ENJOY reading God’s Word!

Edited August 15, 2015 by Retrobyter
Further explanation

[Retrobyter]

P.S., you may find that the first couple of words in each sentence (or clause) are “reversed” to us. To those who spoke Greek, this was the correct way of writing Greek, and it is WE who “reverse” the first couple of words. For instance, “20 The for Father loves the Son...,” when we “normally” write in English “20 For the Father loves the Son...."

[Guest shiloh357]

 

It is what it is. Yeshua` said that He ONLY did what His Father did. He may not “ask permission,” but He also doesn’t stray from what the Father wanted done. He was simply obedient to the end! “Powerless?” No, Yeshua` wasn’t powerless because His Father gave Him the power!

That is false.   Jesus never claimed to be given the power over the Sabbath or given the power to grant eternal life.  You are making claims the Bible doesn't make.   Jesus'  will was in line with the Father's purpose, but that doesn't mean that Jesus was a man given power.   Jesus claimed over and over in John 5 to be equal with the Father and His enemies correctly understood Jesus to be claiming to be deity.  Jesus claimed personal power over death in John 10, as God.  

Jesus claims to be eternal life and claims to be the giver of eternal life.  That made Jesus God. 

 

 He’s not a slave, but He IS the SON! Yeshua` said that they could ALL call Him their Father in the SAME WAY! He said that the Scriptures called them all “gods!” Does that mean that God would cease to be a “Trinity” and become a “Quadrity” or more?

Being the Son of  God makes Jesus God and if you were really a "Messianic Jew"  you would be familiar enough with Jewish thought and culture to know that.

The word "gods"  as used in Psalm 82 and John 10:33 refers to human magistrates, not deities.    But your dismal lack of knowledge of Hebrew demonstrates that you really don't know what you're talking about.

Let’s face it: We don’t know as much as we think we know about this subject, and we have some VERY tough passages of Scripture that present formidable hurdles for your position:

 

 No, the  only one lacking knowledge is you and so far you have not provided any passages that are tough, nor do they provide formidable hurdles for my position.   I have dealt with the passages you think deny the deity of Jesus.   The Bible unequivocally proclaims the deity of  Jesus in both OT and NT and you choose to reject the Bible's claims.

Those who deny that Jesus was/is God are not Christian/Messianic. 

[thereselittleflower]

 

  On 8/14/2015, 6:14:33, thereselittleflower said:

  On 8/14/2015, 6:03:58, shiloh357 said:

  Quote

  Quote

by Thereselittleflower

And how does giving Mary titles that theologically point to her Son, and who her Son is, take anything away from Jesus being the object of our worship?

Catholics and Orthodox only worship the Triune God.

by Shiloh

  On 8/14/2015, 6:03:58, shiloh357 said:

It's more than simply giving her titles.   The RCC honors Mary on par with God.   John Paul II,  after recovering from being shot, gave all the credit for his healing to Mary.   Throngs of people were on St. Peter's square every day praying to Mary, and surrounding an image of Mary while he was recovering.   That is more than simply giving her titles.   The Pope was assigning redemptive attributes like healing to Mary and it is pure idolatry.   Instead of Jesus being object of his worship, he made Mary the object of worship.

Mary would be embarrassed if she were alive to see all this Catholic nonsense attributed to her.

Mary would be embarrassed if she were alive to see all this Catholic nonsense attributed to her. 

This:

"The RCC honors Mary on par with God."

is simply a blatant lie.

 

You understand nothing of what you attack Shiloh.  You misunderstand the faith and words and intent of others who are unlike you in their faith in God.  You refuse to be corrected.  You refuse the truth.  There is nothing anyone can do for you beyond pray. 

No, it is not a lie.   The RCC puts a huge emphasis Marydolatry.  I hear them talk about Mary far more than Jesus.  Mary is the Queen of Heaven (a pagan Babylonian title given to Seramis).   She is considered as sinless having the same kind of sinless conception as Jesus.  She is practically deified in function if not in form.

 

My dear Shiloh, you don't hang out around Catholics very much if you hear them talking more about Mary than about Jesus.

And yes it is a lie to say the Catholics put Mary on par with God.

They have never done so, do not do so, and will not do so.

They are taught very clearly there is a very big and significant difference between worship due God alone, which in Latin is called  "Latria" and the honor given to created beings which is called "Dulia."     They well know the difference and would never give worship do God alone to a created being.

If you persist in saying otherwise, then you are part of the problem why people don't understand the Catholic Church, because then, instead of accepting correction, you continue to perpetuate this lie.  

You presume to judge something of God you do not understand.    That way can lead to darkness.

 

And by the way, Al Hislop, with all his supposed connections between ancient Babylon and the Catholic Church has been shown to be a fraud.  If you still use his work or works derived from his "The Two Babylons" then you're simply perpetuating his foolish ignorance and fraudulent claims.   I don't think it speaks well of christians to practice the perpetuation of such deceptions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

by Thereselittleflower

And how does giving Mary titles that theologically point to her Son, and who her Son is, take anything away from Jesus being the object of our worship?

Catholics and Orthodox only worship the Triune God.

by Shiloh

It's more than simply giving her titles.   The RCC honors Mary on par with God.   John Paul II,  after recovering from being shot, gave all the credit for his healing to Mary.   Throngs of people were on St. Peter's square every day praying to Mary, and surrounding an image of Mary while he was recovering.   That is more than simply giving her titles.   The Pope was assigning redemptive attributes like healing to Mary and it is pure idolatry.   Instead of Jesus being object of his worship, he made Mary the object of worship.

Mary would be embarrassed if she were alive to see all this Catholic nonsense attributed to her.

Mary would be embarrassed if she were alive to see all this Catholic nonsense attributed to her. 

This:

"The RCC honors Mary on par with God."

is simply a blatant lie.

 

You understand nothing of what you attack Shiloh.  You misunderstand the faith and words and intent of others who are unlike you in their faith in God.  You refuse to be corrected.  You refuse the truth.  There is nothing anyone can do for you beyond pray. 

No, it is not a lie.   The RCC puts a huge emphasis Marydolatry.  I hear them talk about Mary far more than Jesus.  Mary is the Queen of Heaven (a pagan Babylonian title given to Seramis).   She is considered as sinless having the same kind of sinless conception as Jesus.  She is practically deified in function if not in form.

 

My dear Shiloh, you don't hang out around Catholics very much if you hear them talking more about Mary than about Jesus.

And yes it is a lie to say the Catholics put Mary on par with God.

They have never done so, do not do so, and will not do so.

They are taught very clearly there is a very big and significant difference between worship due God alone, which in Latin is called  "Latria" and the honor given to created beings which is called "Dulia."     They well know the difference and would never give worship do God alone to a created being.

If you persist in saying otherwise, then you are part of the problem why people don't understand the Catholic Church, because then, instead of accepting correction, you continue to perpetuate this lie.  

You presume to judge something of God you do not understand.    That way can lead to darkness.

 

And by the way, Al Hislop, with all his supposed connections between ancient Babylon and the Catholic Church has been shown to be a fraud.  If you still use his work or works derived from his "The Two Babylons" then you're simply perpetuating his foolish ignorance and fraudulent claims.   I don't think it speaks well of christians to practice the perpetuation of such deceptions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with Hislop. I have never read that book.   But I am familiar with ancient Babylonian religious practices as well as other pagan cultures and Roman Catholicism is just a rehash of that.   And when you are praying to Mary for help and when Pope John Paul II  attributes his healing to Mary and not God, then yes, the RCC honors Mary on a level equal with God.  You can deny it all you want, but it's true.   I have posted prayers to Mary and angels that Catholics use and it is pretty clear just how awful and pagan the RCC really is, and why the RCC has no part in the true Kingdom of God. 

[thereselittleflower]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

by Thereselittleflower

And how does giving Mary titles that theologically point to her Son, and who her Son is, take anything away from Jesus being the object of our worship?

Catholics and Orthodox only worship the Triune God.

by Shiloh

It's more than simply giving her titles.   The RCC honors Mary on par with God.   John Paul II,  after recovering from being shot, gave all the credit for his healing to Mary.   Throngs of people were on St. Peter's square every day praying to Mary, and surrounding an image of Mary while he was recovering.   That is more than simply giving her titles.   The Pope was assigning redemptive attributes like healing to Mary and it is pure idolatry.   Instead of Jesus being object of his worship, he made Mary the object of worship.

Mary would be embarrassed if she were alive to see all this Catholic nonsense attributed to her.

Mary would be embarrassed if she were alive to see all this Catholic nonsense attributed to her. 

This:

"The RCC honors Mary on par with God."

is simply a blatant lie.

 

You understand nothing of what you attack Shiloh.  You misunderstand the faith and words and intent of others who are unlike you in their faith in God.  You refuse to be corrected.  You refuse the truth.  There is nothing anyone can do for you beyond pray. 

No, it is not a lie.   The RCC puts a huge emphasis Marydolatry.  I hear them talk about Mary far more than Jesus.  Mary is the Queen of Heaven (a pagan Babylonian title given to Seramis).   She is considered as sinless having the same kind of sinless conception as Jesus.  She is practically deified in function if not in form.

 

My dear Shiloh, you don't hang out around Catholics very much if you hear them talking more about Mary than about Jesus.

And yes it is a lie to say the Catholics put Mary on par with God.

They have never done so, do not do so, and will not do so.

They are taught very clearly there is a very big and significant difference between worship due God alone, which in Latin is called  "Latria" and the honor given to created beings which is called "Dulia."     They well know the difference and would never give worship do God alone to a created being.

If you persist in saying otherwise, then you are part of the problem why people don't understand the Catholic Church, because then, instead of accepting correction, you continue to perpetuate this lie.  

You presume to judge something of God you do not understand.    That way can lead to darkness.

 

And by the way, Al Hislop, with all his supposed connections between ancient Babylon and the Catholic Church has been shown to be a fraud.  If you still use his work or works derived from his "The Two Babylons" then you're simply perpetuating his foolish ignorance and fraudulent claims.   I don't think it speaks well of christians to practice the perpetuation of such deceptions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with Hislop. I have never read that book.   But I am familiar with ancient Babylonian religious practices as well as other pagan cultures and Roman Catholicism is just a rehash of that.   And when you are praying to Mary for help and when Pope John Paul II  attributes his healing to Mary and not God, then yes, the RCC honors Mary on a level equal with God.  You can deny it all you want, but it's true.   I have posted prayers to Mary and angels that Catholics use and it is pretty clear just how awful and pagan the RCC really is, and why the RCC has no part in the true Kingdom of God. 

 

It has everything to do with Hislop for it is with Hislop the whole Roman Catholicism is pagan started.  Just because you haven't read him, doesn't mean sources you have used haven't read him and used him, or their sources.    Ignorance of where one's ideas and beliefs originate does not do anything to remove their origination.

Have you read Woodrow?

 

And again, you simply don't understand what it is you condemn.  

Edited August 16, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Guest shiloh357]

I understand plenty and it doesn't take a degree in comparative religion to spot idolatry.  All idolatry began in Babylon.  The RCC is simply latest manifestation of it.

[missmuffet]

I understand plenty and it doesn't take a degree in comparative religion to spot idolatry.  All idolatry began in Babylon.  The RCC is simply latest manifestation of it.

I agree.