The Lord Jesus Christ

[Ezra]

We seem to be getting off topic here. The strange thing is that while the RCC has never rejected or opposed the Deity of Christ -- indeed they fully believe in the Deity of Christ -- yet they have substituted Mary for Christ (in practical terms) and salvation by works for faith (in spiritual terms). This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, which is true to Scripture.

 

464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.  

During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.

[Retrobyter]

 

It is what it is. Yeshua` said that He ONLY did what His Father did. He may not “ask permission,” but He also doesn’t stray from what the Father wanted done. He was simply obedient to the end! “Powerless?” No, Yeshua` wasn’t powerless because His Father gave Him the power!

That is false.   Jesus never claimed to be given the power over the Sabbath or given the power to grant eternal life.  You are making claims the Bible doesn't make.   Jesus'  will was in line with the Father's purpose, but that doesn't mean that Jesus was a man given power.   Jesus claimed over and over in John 5 to be equal with the Father and His enemies correctly understood Jesus to be claiming to be deity.  Jesus claimed personal power over death in John 10, as God.  

Jesus claims to be eternal life and claims to be the giver of eternal life.  That made Jesus God. 

...

Shalom, shiloh357.

Oh, really? Who raised Yeshua` back to life?

Matthew 16:21

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
KJV

That verb, “egertheenai," is a PASSIVE verb; that is, it’s an action done TO the subject!

Matthew 17:22-23

22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
KJV

Again, “egertheesetai” is a PASSIVE verb!

Luke 9:20-22

20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ (Messiah) of God.

21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
KJV

Again, “egertheenai” is a PASSIVE verb!

What about Peter’s words?

Acts 2:22-24

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
KJV

Acts 3:11-26

11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
KJV

Acts 4:8-10

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
KJV

Acts 5:29-31

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
KJV

Acts 10:34-41

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
KJV

And what of Paul’s words?

Acts 13:16-37

16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul (Sha’uwl) the son of Cis (Kish), a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse (Yishai), a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
KJV

Acts 17:29-31

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked (winced) at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
KJV

Romans 4:16-25

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham (Avraham); who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's (Sarah’s) womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
KJV

Romans 6:3-10

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ (the Messiah) was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ (the Messiah), we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ (the Messiah) being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
KJV

Romans 8:11

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus (Yeshua`) from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ (the Messiah) from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV

Ephesians 1:15-23

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus (Master Yeshua`), and love unto all the saints,

16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ (Master Yeshua` the Messiah), the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ (the Messiah), when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
KJV

That’s enough, don’t you think? I mean, there’s MORE, A LOT MORE, if you need it!

Oh, btw, the word for “gods” in Psalm 82:6 is “elohiym,” the SAME WORD that is also used for the ONE true God! Sound familiar? It should! (Although sometimes the definite article “ha-“ is attached to refer specifically to the One God, it is not always attached. In fact, most of the time it is not attached!) OCCASIONALLY, the word may be applied to human “magistrates” (or “judges”), but not that often. The word is found in Exodus 20:23; 22:20; 23:13, 33 for foreign gods! The word is found in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8 and 9 for human “judges,” but the SAME WORD is also used as “God” in Genesis 1 THIRTY-TWO TIMES!

But, so there’s no confusion, Psalm 82:6 says this:

6 Aniy aamartiy elohiym atem uwVneey `Elyown kulkhem:

6 I have-said, “gods you (are) and-sons of-the-most-High all-of-you.”

“Magistrates?” Perhaps, like we are also going to be "kings and priests unto our God” being “sons of God!"

Edited August 17, 2015 by Retrobyter
Tack on another thought

[Guest shiloh357]

Well you posted a lot of Scripture; too bad you have little to no skill in how to actually handle Scripture.  

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.  (Joh 10:17-18)

According to this verse Jesus had the power to lay down his life and he also had the power to take it up again.   So yes, God did raise Jesus from the dead.  But John informs us that, as God, it was Jesus who raised his own body from the dead.   So, I reiterate that Jesus claimed personal power over death and that includes his own resurrection.  

John 2:9  tells us that Jesus, told his enemies to tear down the temple (of his body) and HE would raise it up again.  Jesus was in 100% control over the events the surrounded his death, burial and resurrection.   If Jesus had chosen to hang on the cross for 100 years, there was nothing the Romans could have done about it.    Jesus died the moment he sovereignly chose to die and not one moment too soon or too late.   He could do that because he was God.  He was God in the womb, God on the cross, and God when He came out of the tomb.

Psalm 82 if you actually take the time to read the entire thing is a rebuke of corrupt judges and leaders.  The "elohim"  used there is a word that while it is translated "gods" into English is a word that refers to God, or to depending on context, magistrates/judges, angels and false gods.   Hebrew only has 8700 words and so they play double and triple duty.  One Hebrew word, can have several different uses, but context rules how a word is used.

So this verse doesn't really offer you any help in your argument.   Jesus used it in a rabbinical light to heavy argument to simply point out that if they call human judges "gods" in the T'nakh then how more appropriate would it be for Jesus who was born of a virgin, and sanctified by God, to call himself God.  If anything, Jesus was using Psalm 82 as a defense of his deity.

[Guest shiloh357]

Well you posted a lot of Scripture; too bad you have little to no skill in how to actually handle Scripture.  

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.  (Joh 10:17-18)

 

So this verse doesn't really offer you any help in your argument.   

you seem to have missed this last bit

This commandment have I received of my Father.  (Joh 10:17-18),

Yes, but Jesus still raised himself from the dead.   Jesus obeyed the Father, but it was Jesus as God who raised himself up.

[Guest shiloh357]

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Messiah."

 

 

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

(Mat 16:16)

"Son of God" refers to deity.  It means that Jesus is God.  Jesus is both God and Messiah.

[Guest shiloh357]

Well you posted a lot of Scripture; too bad you have little to no skill in how to actually handle Scripture.  

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.  (Joh 10:17-18)

 

So this verse doesn't really offer you any help in your argument.   

you seem to have missed this last bit

This commandment have I received of my Father.  (Joh 10:17-18),

Yes, but Jesus still raised himself from the dead.   Jesus obeyed the Father, but it was Jesus as God who raised himself up.

 

That makes no sense, technically what your saying is Jesus obeyed himself then....There was therefore no commandment to receive.

No, I am saying Jesus obeyed the Father.   Jesus and the Father are one God, but separate persons.  

[Guest shiloh357]

 

So your argument "Son of God" is not to be taken literally as father and son in that relation...but by another relation.

What I am saying is that "Son of God"  is not speaking to a paternal relationship and it is not a relationship where Jesus is inferior to the Father.   Jesus was pre-existent with the Father and is not the offspring of the Father.  Jesus is simply God in human flesh.  

 One must then raise the argument why the Father" is the Father and Jesus the "Son"? And why does God describe His relationship with Jesus in these terms?

That's one of the mysteries about God that we accept on faith because it is not explained in Scripture.   The Father and Son are demonstrated as separate persons and speak of each other has separate persons, but both have divine attributes and both speak and act as God.   How that works exactly is not explained to us.

One thing to understand and note is that Jesus' enemies understood "Son of God"  to be reference to Jesus' deity and Jesus did not correct them.  He rather doubled down on his claim to be God.

 Should it actually read then...This is myself whom I love; I am well pleased with myself?

No it shouldn't .   You are confusing "being" with "personage.    The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE God.   But they are three distinct Persons.   We don't understand it, but that is how it is demonstrated to us in Scripture. 

Further why doesn't Peter just say Thou art the Christ, the  living God. ?

In essence, he did.   "Son of God"  means "God."    "Son of..."   in Hebrew thought is a terms that draws a line of equality in character/nature between two  objects.    Jesus called James and John, "sons of thunder"  because  of their tempers.  When Jesus is called the Son of God,  it is not saying that Jesus is God's offspring, but a co-equal person in the Godhead. 

The Greek in the Gospel of John uses the term "Son of God"  in a very unique way that distinguishes Jesus as  "THE Son of God"  and not "a" son of God."   He uses it in a way to emphasize Jesus as God.

[Ezra]

Just because Jesus is the Son of God DOES NOT nullify the fact that He is fully God.  Please note very carefully and very reverentially how God the Father addresses God the Son (Heb 1:8,9):

⁸ But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

⁹ Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

¹⁰ And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

That quotation in verse 10 is from Psalm 102:24-27, which is actually addressed to GOD ("O my God").  

Anyone who believes that Jesus is not God or less than God has rejected Bible truth, and rejected the Doctrine of Christ (2 Jn 9).  That is extremely hazardous. 

[FresnoJoe]

Shalom, everyone.

The phrase is “the Lord Jesus Christ.” What does that mean to you? What do these names/titles mean? Just how much do you know about in whom you say you believe? Break it down.

~

The

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Revelation 17:14

LORD

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Jesus

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matthew 1:21

The Christ

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

[Retrobyter]

Well you posted a lot of Scripture; too bad you have little to no skill in how to actually handle Scripture.  

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.  (Joh 10:17-18)

According to this verse Jesus had the power to lay down his life and he also had the power to take it up again.   So yes, God did raise Jesus from the dead.  But John informs us that, as God, it was Jesus who raised his own body from the dead.   So, I reiterate that Jesus claimed personal power over death and that includes his own resurrection.  

John 2:9  tells us that Jesus, told his enemies to tear down the temple (of his body) and HE would raise it up again.  Jesus was in 100% control over the events the surrounded his death, burial and resurrection.   If Jesus had chosen to hang on the cross for 100 years, there was nothing the Romans could have done about it.    Jesus died the moment he sovereignly chose to die and not one moment too soon or too late.   He could do that because he was God.  He was God in the womb, God on the cross, and God when He came out of the tomb.

Psalm 82 if you actually take the time to read the entire thing is a rebuke of corrupt judges and leaders.  The "elohim"  used there is a word that while it is translated "gods" into English is a word that refers to God, or to depending on context, magistrates/judges, angels and false gods.   Hebrew only has 8700 words and so they play double and triple duty.  One Hebrew word, can have several different uses, but context rules how a word is used.

So this verse doesn't really offer you any help in your argument.   Jesus used it in a rabbinical light to heavy argument to simply point out that if they call human judges "gods" in the T'nakh then how more appropriate would it be for Jesus who was born of a virgin, and sanctified by God, to call himself God.  If anything, Jesus was using Psalm 82 as a defense of his deity.

Shalom, shiloh357.

Well, you’ve done it again. You’ve used a couple of verses to NEGATE all the rest of the verses in the Bible! Tell me this: Do you really think that Yeshua` contradicted Peter and Paul and even HIMSELF in other places of Scripture or are you just that STUBBORN?! Contrary to Dallas Holmes’ song, “Yeshua` didn’t "RISE AGAIN!” He was "RAISED TO LIFE AGAIN!” Did you ever even THINK to look up the Greek of John 10:17-18 and its context?

Regarding John 2:9, “coulda, shoulda, woulda,” you can say whatever you’d like to say about things that never happened! All the empty theories in the world add up to exactly NOTHING! Do you really think that Yeshua` included HIS FATHER in that word “oudeis” (“no man”)? He was talking about other human beings!

Isaiah 53:5-12

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV