The Lord Jesus Christ

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

The phrase is “the Lord Jesus Christ.” What does that mean to you? What do these names/titles mean? Just how much do you know about in whom you say you believe? Break it down.

~

The

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Revelation 17:14

LORD

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Jesus

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matthew 1:21

The Christ

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

Shalom, FresnoJoe.

I have a question or two (or more) for you: What does it mean for Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, to be called “Lord of lords and King of kings?” Then, because they are linked in Rev. 17:14, what does it mean for those who are with Him to be “called, and chosen, and faithful?"

Another question (or two): What does it mean to call Yeshua` “accursed?” And, what does it mean to call Yeshua` “Lord?”

And, one final question: Why is it that calling Yeshua “the Christ” comes out differently in the minds of Christians than calling Him “the Messiah,” since the two titles are THE SAME except for the language from which they come? (That is, “the Messiah” [Hebrew: Mashiach] = “the Christ” [Greek: Christos] = “the Anointed (One)” or “the Rubbed (One)” [English].) When you say, “Jesus is the Christ,” doesn’t it imply something somewhat different than when you say, “Jesus is the Messiah?” SHOULD that be?

[Retrobyter]

Just because Jesus is the Son of God DOES NOT nullify the fact that He is fully God.  Please note very carefully and very reverentially how God the Father addresses God the Son (Heb 1:8,9):

⁸ But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

⁹ Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

¹⁰ And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

That quotation in verse 10 is from Psalm 102:24-27, which is actually addressed to GOD ("O my God").  

Anyone who believes that Jesus is not God or less than God has rejected Bible truth, and rejected the Doctrine of Christ (2 Jn 9).  That is extremely hazardous. 

Shalom, Ezra.

You’ve STARTED with the END in your argument! “...how God the Father addresses God the Son." Don’t do that! You’ve proven NOTHING, yet! It is both a fallacy of logic and an error in argumentation to claim that He is “God the Son” before you’ve addressed the subject, let alone PROVED it! He IS “the Son of God”; He IS NOT “God the Son!” The first term is used of Him in several places of Scripture (Matt. 4:3, 6; 14:33; 26:63; 27:40, 43, 54; Mark 1:1; 3:11; 15:39; Luke 1:35; 4:3, 9, 41; 22:70; John 1:34, 49; 5:25; 9:35; 10:36; 11:4, 27; 19:7; 20:31; Acts 8:37; 9:20; Rom. 1:4; 2 Cor. 1:19; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 4:13; Heb. 4:14; 6:6; 7:3; 10:29; 1 John 3:8; 4:15; 5:5, 10, 12, 13, 20; and Rev. 2:18); the second term is NEVER found in Scripture!

In reading Hebrews 1:8, 9, and 10, one must be true to the quotations from the Psalms quoted. Furthermore, one should really confirm the REASON for the quotations by checking both the context of Heb. 1:8-10 and those of Psalms 45 and 102! God’s Holy Spirit (Ruach haQodesh Elohim) NEVER abuses any Scripture quoted from the Tanakh (the OT). Therefore, neither would He allow His human authors to do so in their writings that have passed on as "His Word!” If indeed the NT is God’s Word written down through the pens of His prophets (and I believe that it is), then He CERTAINLY would not allow His inspired Word to be misrepresented! So, it’s important to look carefully at Psalm 45 (the REAL psalm from which verses 8 and 9 come):

HEBREWS 1-2
1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (Greek: aioonos = “ages”);
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high (Psalm 110:1);
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name (authority) than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee (Psalm 2:7)? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son (2 Sam. 7:14; 1 Chron. 17:13)?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (Psalm 97:7).
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire (Psalm 104:4).
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows (Psalm 45:7-8).
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail (Psalm 102:26-28).
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool (Psalm 110:1)?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet (Psalm 8:5-7). For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee (Psalm 22:23).
13 And again, I will put my trust in him (Isaiah 8:17). And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me (Isaiah 8:18, LXX).
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham (Isaiah 41:8-9).
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
KJV

I must stop here for tonight. Have to work in the morning, but the KEY is verse 1:5. Look up the passages of 2 Samuel 7:14 and 1 Chronicles 17:13, and maybe you’ll see what I mean.

More tomorrow....

[FresnoJoe]

I have a question or two (or more) for you: What does it mean for Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, to be called “Lord of lords and King of kings?”

~

He

"For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. Deuteronomy 10:17 (New American Standard Bible)

Is

Do you not know? Do you not hear?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
who brings princes to nothing,
and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness.

Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown,
scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth,
when he blows on them, and they wither,
and the tempest carries them off like stubble.

To whom then will you compare me,
that I should be like him? says the Holy One.
Lift up your eyes on high and see:
who created these?
He who brings out their host by number,
calling them all by name,
by the greatness of his might,
and because he is strong in power
not one is missing. Isaiah 40:21-26 (English Standard Version)

God

“See now that I myself am he!

There is no god besides me.

I put to death and I bring to life,

I have wounded and I will heal,

and no one can deliver out of my hand.

I lift my hand to heaven and solemnly swear:

As surely as I live forever,

when I sharpen my flashing sword

and my hand grasps it in judgment,

I will take vengeance on my adversaries

and repay those who hate me.

I will make my arrows drunk with blood,

while my sword devours flesh:

the blood of the slain and the captives,

the heads of the enemy leaders.”

Rejoice, you nations, with his people,

for he will avenge the blood of his servants;

he will take vengeance on his enemies

and make atonement for his land and people. Deuteronomy 32:39-43 (New International Version)

~

Another question (or two): What does it mean to call Yeshua` “accursed?”

~

It

He was despised and rejected—

a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief.

We turned our backs on him and looked the other way.

He was despised, and we did not care.

Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;

it was our sorrows that weighed him down.

And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,

a punishment for his own sins!

But he was pierced for our rebellion,

crushed for our sins.

He was beaten so we could be whole.

He was whipped so we could be healed.

All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.

We have left God’s paths to follow our own.

Yet the Lord laid on him

the sins of us all.

He was oppressed and treated harshly,

yet he never said a word.

He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.

And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,

he did not open his mouth.

Unjustly condemned,

he was led away.Isaiah 53:3-8(New Living Translation)

Means Salvation (Yeshau~!)

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 (King James Version)

~

And, what does it mean to call Yeshua` “Lord?”

~

Beloved It Means, I Am Blessed

Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3 (New International Version)

~

And, one final question: Why is it that calling Yeshua “the Christ” comes out differently in the minds of Christians than calling Him “the Messiah,” since the two titles are THE SAME...

~

Beats Me Beloved For Indeed, Yes

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to cause the people to return and to build Jerusalem unto the Anointed {Heb. Messiah} Prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks, while the street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25 (Jubilee Bible 2000)

The Two (Three) Titles

"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Daniel 9:25 (New American Standard Bible)

Are The

The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ). John 1:41 (New International Version)

Same

But concerning The Son, he said, "Your throne, oh God, is to the eternity of eternities. A straight scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom."

"You have loved righteousness and you have hated evil; because of this, God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of a joy beyond your companions." Hebrews 1:8-9 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

[Retrobyter]

Shalom to all.

Let me show you what “Son of God” REALLY means:

Hebrews 1:5

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee (Psalm 2:7)? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son (2 Sam. 7:14; 1 Chron. 17:13)?

KJV

Look at the places in Scripture that the author of Hebrews quoted:

Psalm 2:1-12

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (His Messiah; His Christ), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
KJV

2 Samuel 7:1-17

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;
2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.
3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.
4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

1 Chron 17:1-15

17 Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains.
2 Then Nathan said unto David, Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee.
3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,
4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:
5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another.
6 Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:
8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.
9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

In Psalm 2, we see a future “United Nations” meeting. Having been subdued to the King of kings in the future, they will think that they can rebel against Him and His Father in a “secret” meeting. In the middle of their meeting, they will hear LOUD LAUGHTER COMING FROM ALL AROUND THEM! And, they will hear God the Father speaking DIRECTLY TO THEM! He will MOCK their words, “Let’s break their restraints on us and throw their chains off of us, la-de-da,” ridiculing them! Then, His anger will smolder, and He’ll set them in their place! “Yet, have I set MY king upon MY holy hill of Tsiown!” (a very REAL mountain upon which Jerusalem is built!) Then, He continues, “I will declare the decree:” Then He quotes the Son of God, “the LORD (God the Father) hath said unto me,...” and then He gives the decree itself, His own words quoted by the Son: "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.” Then, for the rest of the psalm, He talks to these leaders of nations, warning them of how easily they could be “replaced” when the Son’s anger is kindled against them just a little!

The Son’s Kingdom is not a “heavenly Kingdom” as though it was in some place called “Heaven”; it is a “heavenly Kingdom” in that it is a Kingdom that will come from the sky (“heaven”) because the Son of God, Yeshua` the Messiah, will come from the sky! His Kingdom will be LITERAL; His Kingdom will be RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH; and His Kingdom will last FOREVER!

Regarding “this day have I begotten thee,” Paul also told us this:

Acts 13:33-34

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
KJV

We don’t need all this allegorical nonsense that has been perpetrated since the second and third centuries A.D! We have DIRECT SCRIPTURES that show us that Yeshua` is indeed the Son of David, born to be a King, and given the promise of David’s throne! As such, He is also the Son of God and God is His Father! “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son!"

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, to all.

Regarding Hebrews 1:8-9, which is quoted from Psalm 45:6-7, here’s the Psalm:

Psalm 45:1-17

 

To the chief Musician upon Sho-shan'-nim, for the sons of Ko'rah, Mas'chil, A Song of loves.

1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

 

2 Thou (the King) art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy (the King’s) lips: therefore God hath blessed thee (the King) for ever.

3 Gird thy (the King’s) sword upon thy (the King’s) thigh, O most mighty, with thy (the King’s) glory and thy (the King’s) majesty.

4 And in thy (the King’s) majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy (the King’s) right hand shall teach thee (the King) terrible things.

5 Thine (The King’s) arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee (the King).

6 Thy (God’s) throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy (God’s) kingdom is a right sceptre.

7 Thou (The King) lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy (the King’s) God, hath anointed thee (the King) with the oil of gladness above thy (the King’s) fellows.

8 All thy (the King’s) garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they (the King’s fellows) have made thee glad.

9 Kings' daughters were among thy (the King’s) honourable women: upon thy (the King’s) right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

10 Hearken, O daughter (the Queen), and consider, and incline thine (the Queen’s) ear; forget also thine (the Queen’s) own people, and thy (the Queen’s) father's house;

11 So shall the king greatly desire thy (the Queen’s) beauty: for he (the King) is thy Lord (Master); and worship thou (bow thou down to) him.

12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy (the Queen’s) favour.

13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her (the King’s daughter’s) clothing is of wrought gold.

14 She (the King’s daughter) shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her (the King’s daughter) shall be brought unto thee (the King).

15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they (the King’s daughter and her virgin companions) be brought: they (the King’s daughter and her virgin companions) shall enter into the king's palace.

16 Instead of thy (the King’s) fathers shall be thy (the King’s) children, whom thou (the King) mayest make princes in all the earth.

17 I will make thy (the King’s) name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee (the King) for ever and ever.

KJV

Psalm 10:1-18

1 Why standest thou afar off, O LORD? why hidest thou thyself in times of trouble?
2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
6 He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.
7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.
8 He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.
9 He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net.
10 He croucheth, and humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones.
11 He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it.
12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
13 Wherefore doth the wicked contemn God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it.
14 Thou hast seen it; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite it with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.
15 Break thou the arm of the wicked and the evil man: seek out his wickedness till thou find none.
16 The LORD is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.
17 LORD, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:
18 To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.
KJV

Psalm 11:1-7

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.

11 In the LORD put I my trust: How say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?

2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.

3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
KJV

Verse 6 is a PRELUDE to verse 7! The author of the psalm, was recognizing, as did David, that the Kingdom was actually GOD’S Kingdom, not David’s Kingdom or Solomon’s Kingdom, for instance! It’s not verse 6 that was addressed to the Son (the King); it was verse 7! Because the King loved RIGHTEOUSNESS and hated WICKEDNESS, God anointed the Son (the King) to be His Representative!

[Ezra]

Retrobyter,

Playing around with Scriptures is a very hazardous occupation, but that's exactly what you have been doing to rationalize your beliefs.  And quoting extensively from Scripture to controvert Scripture is even more hazardous. I will refute all of your sophistry with just one verse (1 Tim 3:16 JKB from the Received Text, where THEOS = GOD):

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ.

What does it mean? GOD  became MAN = God the Word became Man = Jesus of Nazareth is God who walked on earth as the Son of Man. Period.

[Retrobyter]

Retrobyter,

Playing around with Scriptures is a very hazardous occupation, but that's exactly what you have been doing to rationalize your beliefs.  And quoting extensively from Scripture to controvert Scripture is even more hazardous. I will refute all of your sophistry with just one verse (1 Tim 3:16 JKB from the Received Text, where THEOS = GOD):

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ.

What does it mean? GOD  became MAN = God the Word became Man = Jesus of Nazareth is God who walked on earth as the Son of Man. Period.

Shabbat shalom, Ezra.

No “playing around” here! I am TOTALLY in agreement with 1 Timothy 3:16 (and I think you meant “KJV” or “KJB,” since you mentioned the “Received Text," right?) And, I TOTALLY agree with your final statement! Yeshua` Natsaratiy WAS/IS "God the Word [who] became Man." I do not and CANNOT disagree with John 1! HOWEVER, we’ve lost the other part of the author-of-Hebrews’s quotation! And on a separate note, I think that we MISREPRESENT Yeshua` when we call Him “God the Son!”

The one thing we MUST not forget is this: In the process of “becoming Man,” the Word GAVE UP certain “attributes” (to use a theological term), those traits that are ATTRIBUTED to God (as opposed to “characteristics” that are traits “characterized” by human beings). By the mere choice of becoming confined to human flesh, He suddenly had physical dimensions, and with those physical dimensions, physical limitations!

He was generally affected by gravity, like anybody else (He walked, lied down, sat, set things down, etc.)! He physically grew (Luke 2:52)! He had to breathe air, acquiring oxygen and expelling carbon dioxide in the process (Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; John 19:30 - “gave up His spirit/ghost” = “gave up His breath")! He became tired (John 4:6); He became hungry (Matt. 4:2; 21:18; Mark 11:12); He became thirsty (John 4:7; 19:28)! He didn’t know everything His Father knew (Matt. 24:36; Mark 13:32)! Regarding judgment, "He called ‘em as He saw ‘em” (Matt. 12:42; 23:1-39; Luke 11:31; John 5:22, 30)!

The thing I do NOT see in the Scriptures is that He re-acquired His attributes after His resurrection or even after His ascension! He STILL has His body (albeit a super-strong, immortal, incorruptible body that glows, capable of passing through locked doors or ascending into the sky). Thus, He STILL has some limitations by virtue of having a body! The incarnation was a ONE-WAY TRIP! Thus, He became - and will always remain - the "SON OF GOD!” John 1 does NOT say, “In the beginning was the Son.” It says “In the beginning was the WORD!"

Now, what the author of Hebrews was trying to tell us is that He is the descendant of David and Shlomoh (Solomon) who has the right to be the King of Israel, and as the rightful Heir of the Kingdom, He is the Seed of David to whom it was promised “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son!” THAT was the point that God was making when He said at Yeshua`s baptism (mikvah) (Matt. 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22) and again at His transfiguration (Matt. 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35), “THIS IS MY BELOVED SON!” 

See, I’m not trying to call anyone here on this forum a liar, an idiot, or even generally wrong! I’m trying to help you all learn not to lean too heavily on the theological doctrine of the “Trinity!” Instead of leaning on theology, lean on GOD’S WORD, the BIBLE! We learn some theological doctrines and think we’ve got it all sewn up, OR we think “Well, it’s out of our 'mental reach' to understand God, and the doctrine of the ‘Trinity' is the best we can do.” I don’t think God had either of those attitudes in mind for us when He said, “THIS IS MY BELOVED SON! HEAR YE HIM!"

The last point I will try to make in this posting is this: We are unlikely to have God’s power displayed in our “churches” if we’re not giving out the right message. Why should God authenticate a message He doesn’t endorse? When Yeshua` was physically present on earth, He heralded the good news about the Kingdom, and God authenticated His message with the miracles that He performed through Yeshua`. Is God out of power? Is God "out of juice?” OF COURSE NOT! ABSOLUTELY that is not true! So why don’t we see today the power that Yeshua` and His disciples displayed?

"Because the Bible is now completely written"? I don’t think so. Even the prophecies written in the book of Revelation tells us that some miracles are yet to be performed.

“Because they were prophets and we aren’t”? Again, I don’t think so. First, Yeshua` said,

John 14:12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
KJV

Note that this is not a promise made to His Twelve only! It’s made to “he that believeth on me."

Second, Ya`aqov (“James”) said,

James 5:13-20

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
KJV

Ya`aqov’s point was that sickness that was due to sins being committed were HEALABLE BY PRAYER! People will sometimes get distracted by the words “effectual fervent,” but these are not what is important in James 5:16; it’s “A RIGHTEOUS MAN” that’s important! That’s why Ya`aqov cited Eliyahu’s example: Eliyahu (Elias or Elijah) was said to be a man susceptible to the same passions that we are; however, this implies that "he did not sin” and therefore was “a righteous man.” Thus, he was on speaking terms with God; so, when he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, God answered His prayer and held the rain back for 3.5 years! Then again when he prayed, the sky gave rain, and the ground brought forth its fruit!

When I first tried to understand this passage of Scripture, it seemed to me to be just a hodge-podge of unrelated thoughts thrown together. But, as I studied this passage, I discovered that there IS an underlying theme that ties them together: Sins vs. righteousness! Notice the clause at the end of verse 15: “and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.” Verse 16 notes the “righteous man.” Verse 17 mentions the “passions” to which we are all subjected, and verse 20 mentions “the sinner,” “the error of his way,” “death” (the wages of sin), and “a multitude of sins.” Therefore, when one reads this passage with this understanding, one realizes that Ya`aqov was saying that a righteous man like Eliyahu can have his prayers answered JUST LIKE ELIYAHU DID, specifically the prayers to save the sick due to committing sins! However, we can expand that to include other circumstances needing prayer because Eliyahu was not praying for someone’s sickness but for something not susceptible to human passion! So, I believe that Ya`aqov was telling us that we can have the same prayer-answering power from God that Eliyahu had! We just need to be “righteous.” And, being “righteous” is not difficult; one must be justified by God, and one must swallow his or her pride and admit to sinning when one sins, confessing his sins and including them among the sins for which Yeshua` died (1 John 1:9). It’s the “swallowing one’s pride” and “confessing one's sins” part that is “difficult!"

So, what do we need to do to have God’s power show up in our “churches?” We need to preach the gospel of the Kingdom - the SAME MESSAGE that Yeshua` heralded in the first century! THAT’S the message that God will endorse! THAT’S the message that God will authenticate with His miracles! And, if we want Yeshua` to return, it is our part to perform, because Yeshua` said,...

Matthew 24:10

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV

This hasn’t been done, yet!

[Guest shiloh357]

The one thing we MUST not forget is this: In the process of “becoming Man,” the Word GAVE UP certain “attributes” (to use a theological term), those traits that are ATTRIBUTED to God (as opposed to “characteristics” that are traits “characterized” by human beings). By the mere choice of becoming confined to human flesh, He suddenly had physical dimensions, and with those physical dimensions, physical limitations!

That is wrong.   Jesus gave up divine prerogatives, but Jesus did NOT give up divine attributes.   Jesus did not give up anything that made Him God.  

 The thing I do NOT see in the Scriptures is that He re-acquired His attributes after His resurrection or even after His ascension! He STILL has His body (albeit a super-strong, immortal, incorruptible body that glows, capable of passing through locked doors or ascending into the sky). Thus, He STILL has some limitations by virtue of having a body! The incarnation was a ONE-WAY TRIP! Thus, He became - and will always remain - the "SON OF GOD!” John 1 does NOT say, “In the beginning was the Son.” It says “In the beginning was the WORD!"

Jesus has no limitations because Jesus as God.  It's only a fleshly, unregenerate mind that says Jesus is not God and that Jesus is limited by having a physical body.   Jesus temporarily submitted to those limitations while on earth, but those limitations no longer apply.

 See, I’m not trying to call anyone here on this forum a liar, an idiot, or even generally wrong! I’m trying to help you all learn not to lean too heavily on the theological doctrine of the “Trinity!” Instead of leaning on theology, lean on GOD’S WORD, the BIBLE!

The Bible demonstrates the Trinity.  It is there in function if not in form.   

[thereselittleflower]

The one thing we MUST not forget is this: In the process of “becoming Man,” the Word GAVE UP certain “attributes” (to use a theological term), those traits that are ATTRIBUTED to God (as opposed to “characteristics” that are traits “characterized” by human beings). By the mere choice of becoming confined to human flesh, He suddenly had physical dimensions, and with those physical dimensions, physical limitations!

That is wrong.   Jesus gave up divine prerogatives, but Jesus did NOT give up divine attributes.   Jesus did not give up anything that made Him God.  

 The thing I do NOT see in the Scriptures is that He re-acquired His attributes after His resurrection or even after His ascension! He STILL has His body (albeit a super-strong, immortal, incorruptible body that glows, capable of passing through locked doors or ascending into the sky). Thus, He STILL has some limitations by virtue of having a body! The incarnation was a ONE-WAY TRIP! Thus, He became - and will always remain - the "SON OF GOD!” John 1 does NOT say, “In the beginning was the Son.” It says “In the beginning was the WORD!"

Jesus has no limitations because Jesus as God.  It's only a fleshly, unregenerate mind that says Jesus is not God and that Jesus is limited by having a physical body.   Jesus temporarily submitted to those limitations while on earth, but those limitations no longer apply.

 See, I’m not trying to call anyone here on this forum a liar, an idiot, or even generally wrong! I’m trying to help you all learn not to lean too heavily on the theological doctrine of the “Trinity!” Instead of leaning on theology, lean on GOD’S WORD, the BIBLE!

The Bible demonstrates the Trinity.  It is there in function if not in form.   

On this Shiloh and I are in 100% agreement.  

 

 

[Retrobyter]

The one thing we MUST not forget is this: In the process of “becoming Man,” the Word GAVE UP certain “attributes” (to use a theological term), those traits that are ATTRIBUTED to God (as opposed to “characteristics” that are traits “characterized” by human beings). By the mere choice of becoming confined to human flesh, He suddenly had physical dimensions, and with those physical dimensions, physical limitations!

That is wrong.   Jesus gave up divine prerogatives, but Jesus did NOT give up divine attributes.   Jesus did not give up anything that made Him God.  

 The thing I do NOT see in the Scriptures is that He re-acquired His attributes after His resurrection or even after His ascension! He STILL has His body (albeit a super-strong, immortal, incorruptible body that glows, capable of passing through locked doors or ascending into the sky). Thus, He STILL has some limitations by virtue of having a body! The incarnation was a ONE-WAY TRIP! Thus, He became - and will always remain - the "SON OF GOD!” John 1 does NOT say, “In the beginning was the Son.” It says “In the beginning was the WORD!"

Jesus has no limitations because Jesus is God.  It's only a fleshly, unregenerate mind that says Jesus is not God and that Jesus is limited by having a physical body.   Jesus temporarily submitted to those limitations while on earth, but those limitations no longer apply.

 See, I’m not trying to call anyone here on this forum a liar, an idiot, or even generally wrong! I’m trying to help you all learn not to lean too heavily on the theological doctrine of the “Trinity!” Instead of leaning on theology, lean on GOD’S WORD, the BIBLE!

The Bible demonstrates the Trinity.  It is there in function if not in form.   

Shalom, shiloh357.

Hmmm.... So, tell me. How was and is Yeshua` “OMNIPRESENT,” being confined to a body? (Heb. 10:1-18; John 1:14-Rev. 21:23 "the glory of God did lighten it”, Greek “efootisen” from “footizoo,” and “the Lamb is the light thereof,” Greek “luchnos.")

Hebrews 10:1-18

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
KJV

John 1:14-18

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KJV

Note that it does NOT say “the glory of the Father”; it says “the glory as of the only begotten [Son] of the Father!” He is also “in the bosom (Greek: of the Father"

NT:5461 footizoo (fo-tid'-zo); from NT:5457; to shed rays, i.e. to shine or (transitively) to brighten up (literally or figuratively): KJV - enlighten, illuminate, (bring to, give) light, make to see.

NT:3088 luchnos (lookh'-nos); from the base of NT:3022; a portable lamp or other illuminator (literally or figuratively): KJV - candle, light.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

How was and is Yeshua` “OMNISCIENT” when He didn’t know when He would return but His Father, GOD, did? (Mark 13:32.)

Mark 13:32

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
KJV

How was and is Yeshua` “OMNIPOTENT” when He turns over His empire to His Father? (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

These are attributes He no longer demonstrates.

You said, “It's only a fleshly, unregenerate mind that says Jesus is not God and that Jesus is limited by having a physical body.” I say that it’s only a deluded mind that says that Yeshua` is NOT limited by BEING a physical body and a misguided mind that looks to Yeshua` only instead of to God, His Father, who raised Him from the dead!

Finally, how can the Trinity be in the Bible in function and NOT be in form?! That’s just mental gymnastics. You’ve deluded yourself with this theology of the Trinity to the point that you cannot accept the Scriptures as they are written!