what is the way.. for who died without hearing gospel.

[Guest shiloh357]

Doesn't really matter if it started before or after Constantine, really.    What matters is that praying to the dead is forbidden in Scripture and there is NO biblical instruction to that end.

 

Furthermore Jesus taught the disciples to pray directly to the Father.   The writer of Hebrews says that we can boldly approach the throne to obtain grace in a time of need.  If we can come directly to God himself, why pray to dead saints???

 

Praying to saints is pagan.

[Your closest friendnt]

Doesn't really matter if it started before or after Constantine, really. What matters is that praying to the dead is forbidden in Scripture and there is NO biblical instruction to that end.

Furthermore Jesus taught the disciples to pray directly to the Father. The writer of Hebrews says that we can boldly approach the throne to obtain grace in a time of need. If we can come directly to God himself, why pray to dead saints???

Praying to saints is pagan.

Paul, Peter, Jonh, Stephan and James are saints and they are not dead,

(they are alive with Christ.)

Without prejudice, I am not quite sure if That is what you are trying to communicate?

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Does every topic have to end up being about Catholicism? Perhaps   ?

 

Love you all in Christ, and will say no more about it if I am out of order here.

[thereselittleflower]

Definatlly they did not have the scriptures available to see that they may enter the holy place with thanks giving aided by the grace and the love of the savior and make their supplications before the Throne of Grace without fear, but the did what they knew and they had the blessings of the Savior never the less, thanks for the explanation,

And Jesus is always merceifull, ready to help. And we learn that their faith was unwavering and were ready for the ultimate sacrifise, even unto death. Thanks for the input.

 

 

Ah but my dear friend, they did indeed have the scriptures, they had all the books canonized as scripture in the councils of the late 4th and early 5th centuries.

 

They found nothing contradictory in the scriptures for this practice.  Indeed, in the full canon of scripture they found explicit reference for praying to saints and angels and praying for the dead.

 

People get hung up on the word prayer.   The word pray has gone through changes in meaning in protestantism and related groups.  But the ancient churchrs retain the original meaning which is simply "to ask."

 

Even in scripture we see the word pray used in "praying" to other men:

 

 The eunuch prays to Philip:

 

Act 8:34

And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

 

 

Tertullus prays to the Governor

 

Act 24:4

Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words.

 

 

Paul prays to those in the ship

 

 Act 27:34

Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

 

 

 

The word pray does not mean to worship.  It simply means to ask, and the ancient churches retain the original use of the word in christian use.

 

 

Somehow in protestant usage, the word gradually came to be associated with worship due God alone.      

 

It is not so associated in the ancient churches.    Cultural differences often result in using words in different ways and thus creating misunderstanding.

[thereselittleflower]

Doesn't really matter if it started before or after Constantine, really.    What matters is that praying to the dead is forbidden in Scripture and there is NO biblical instruction to that end.

 

Furthermore Jesus taught the disciples to pray directly to the Father.   The writer of Hebrews says that we can boldly approach the throne to obtain grace in a time of need.  If we can come directly to God himself, why pray to dead saints???

 

Praying to saints is pagan.

 

Praying to those who have passed on into heaven is not forbidden in scripture.    

 

They are alive in Christ.

 

They are part of the body of Christ.

 

The body of  Christ is not divided.

 

The body of Christ is whole.

 

The body of Christ communicates with itself.

 

Praying to saints is not pagan.   The christians simply continued a custom from their Jewish beginnings, made more real and true by Christ.

 

 

 

You ask a very important question though  -   If we can come directly to God Himself, why pray to the dead saints?

 

Yes we can go directly to God Himself.

 

But our prayers are hampered by sin, selfishness and pride.

 

However the prayers of the saints in heaven know no such hinderances.   They have been perfected and they are before the Throne of God.

 

 

Why ask for the prayers of the saints?

 

 

They are the most powerful prayer warriors one could ask for.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Your closest friendnt.

 

Your post was difficult to figure out, but I think I have a close approximation to what you were trying to say:

 

Death and Hades have been disarmed. [They] Lost authority over [the] rights to mankind.
Now Jesus has the keys of death and Hades.
You are not speaking like Paul or John or Peter; how about if you were together with them and lived in that time?
Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead”; that's the meaning I give, they are spiritually the same as the fallen ones. They much, they are one with him.
Paul was teaching that death had been abolished before the open statement of Jesus "I have the keys of Death and Hades."
Paul said that Jesus made a parade in heavenly places of the powers of the devil, like in Roman times, the victor will parade the enemies he defeated bound and in chains in front of the king and all the people. And when they meet the king they [will] bow down.
The devil was defeated; he lost a lot; what is it?
Jesus is the one who has the keys of Hades; he opens the door, and he closes the door; he is the one to judge, not the devil like before.
That's what I say to people from eastern backgrounds, when they say, "I understand the Gospel, but I don't want to believe because I want to be with my ancestors."
I say to them, “Your ancestors did not hear the Gospel, or it was not explained to them in a way to make them accountable, [but] they are not lost; only Christ has the power to take them and to place in a heavenly realm so they can hear the Gospel out of the body and decide whether they believe or not.
Now they are ready to appear before Jesus Christ; now they know who he is, and have no [room for] complaints if they had denied him."

PS: When Jesus said, "If you don't believe," he was talking to people who have heard the Gospel.
[He was] Definitely not [talking] to those who did not hear.

PS: Many people cannot tell the difference, between the meaning of “heavens" and "the Kingdom of God."

And one more thing, stick with [the] first disciples; don't use words they did not use, suggesting things they cannot explain.

Suggesting [things like this:] that the Devil and his evil spirit, they are two persons in one, and add to that the Antichrist, to be three persons in one - The evil trinity.
Speak like Paul, always like Paul, and [like] Jesus as he prayed in the Garden, and [like Stephen in] Stephen's vision, and [like David in] David's visions.

 

No, Yeshua` did NOT mean that “death was abolished” when He said He had the keys of death and hadees (the "unseen”). He meant that He had control over them both. He would use them to HIS advantage!

 

No, the devil has NOT yet been defeated. His doom is sealed, to be sure, but he has not even been chained and sealed in the pit with no bottom, yet, let alone thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

As far as the Messiah (Christ) putting their ancestors somewhere in a “heavenly realm so they can hear the Gospel out of the body and decide whether they believe or not,” that is merely your theological belief. What proof do you have from Scripture that He will do that? It’s a nice sentiment, but I don’t know that you can support it from Scripture.

 

Yes, Yeshua` WAS talking to people (the Israelites) who had heard the gospel (the good news) already (Isaiah 52:7), but be sure that you understand that this “gospel” was the good news about the KINGDOM of God, the Kingdom over which David and Solomon reigned, the Kingdom over which the Messiah Yeshua` will also reign in the future!

[thereselittleflower]

Well actually   death has been abolished:

 

2Ti 1:10

 

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

 

"Abolish" "katargeō" "καταργέω"

 

1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

   1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency

   2. to deprive of force, influence, power

2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

   1. to cease, to pass away, be done away

   2. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one

   3. to terminate all intercourse with one

 

 

 

And the devil has been defeated:

 

 

Hebrews 2:14-15

 

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

 

 

John 12:31

 

"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

 

 

"Now"  "nyn"   "νῦν"

 

 

1. at this time, the present, now

 

 

Luke 10:18

 

And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

 

 

John 16:11

 

and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

 

 

Colossians 2:15

 

When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

 

 

 

 

Regarding theological belief of where the dead, righteous and unrighteous, went before Christ, Jesus himself tells us in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus:

 

It is called "Abraham's Bossom."

 

The Rich Man and Lazarus

      19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

 

Jesus used this illustration - if the dead were not conscious, if the dead are not aware, if the righteous and unrighteous did not go to separate places after death, if there was no such place as Abraham's Bosom, there would have been no point in this illustration

 

The scriptures also tell us He descended and He  led captivity captive when He ascended

 

Ephesians 4

 

 “WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
            HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,

            AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”

 

9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 

 

 

What happened when He descended?

 

 

1 Peter 3

 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 

 

 

He preached to the spirits in prison from the days of Noah.

 

 

There is also much, my friend, that contradicts your last statement which I have gone over in other places.

[Guest shiloh357]

Praying to anyone who has died is forbidden in scripture.  The Bible doesn't qualify that.    And yes it is pagan.  There is no evidence in scripture that saints hear us when we pray.

 

We are COMMANDED to come directly to God.  Our sin does not hamper us from obeying that commandment.  The body of Christ is on earth, not in heaven.

 

What you say is very Catholic, but it is not biblical NT Christianity.  It is nothing more than idolatry and paganism.  May God pour his contempt upon it all.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

So anyway, 

 

"what is the way.. for who died without hearing gospel?"

 

The Bible teaches there is only ONE way, which is God's own mercy through Christ's sacrifice for sin.

 

God is righteous. I hold fast to that FACT, and leave it in His hands.

 

For me to speculate on His judgement would place me in a dangerous place. 

[thereselittleflower]

Shiloh where does it say praying to anyone after they have died is a sin?

 

Where does it say that those in Christ who have gone on to heaven are dead?    They are very much alive with Christ, and are still part of the same ONE body of Christ we are.