what is the way.. for who died without hearing gospel.

[Guest shiloh357]

Prayers to dead people fall under the prohibitions of Deut. 18:10-12.   It is an attempt to communicate with dead people and God calls such things an abomination.  Praying to ANYONE except God is idolatry.   The word used for abomination in v. 12 is toavah and is the word used to refer to the abomination of idolatry. 

 

The aim of Roman Catholicism is to replace the ministry of Christ with the ministry of men.    Instead of confessing one's sins to the Lord, they confess their sins to a sinful priest.  Instead of praying to God through Jesus as the Bible instructs, they pray to Mary, or dead saints.  

 

The Bible says there is ONE mediator between God and man (I Tim. 2:5).   So to use another mediator is  sin.  To attempt to use Mary or a saint to mediator in prayer is a sin because you are using a man to fulfill the role only Christ should fulfill.  It is usurpation of Christ's role and authority in our lives. 

 

The "saints"  of the RCC are not in heaven, in the first place.  The definition of a "saint" in the Bible is one who made the decision to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. The Bible, over and over refers to all believers as saints.    The Bible never uses the word "saint"  to refer to someone who is canonized as such.   The only way to heaven is faith in Jesus Christ.  Faith alone in Christ alone is what makes a person a saint.  Nothing you did, no amount of personal piety is enough to earn someone a place in the Kingdom of God.

 

Our prayers are to the Father, in the Name of Jesus. That is the formula Jesus gave to us.   To depart from those instructions is a departure into sin.  It is also a practice in futility, as there is nothing in the Bible that teaches or commands us to pray to saints.

 

The Bible and the Bible alone is the sole source of  God's truth.  Everything God wants us to know is in the Bible and the Bible forbids the practice of praying to dead people.

 

The Bible nowhere says that believers in heaven are part of the body of Christ.   The phrase "Body of Christ"  is just a metaphor Paul used for believer ON EARTH to make the point that all believers have a role in ministry.   Ministry is not needed for believers in heaven.   The are not sinning, they are not sick, they are not struggling in heaven, have no need of anything or any kind of "ministry"  in heaven.   Jesus' ministry in heaven is for believers on the earth as the one who is our High Priest.   He is no longer serving in that role for believers in heaven because they no longer have a sin nature.

 

Believers in heaven are pre-occupied with living in the tangible, unfiltered glory and presence of God and have no pre-occupation with what is happening on earth.   Our self-centered human nature cannot accept that we are not the center of attention in heaven.   They are busy worshipping God, based on what we know about heaven in the book of Revelation.  

[thereselittleflower]

 

Prayers to dead people fall under the prohibitions of Deut. 18:10-12.   It is an attempt to communicate with dead people and God calls such things an abomination.  Praying to ANYONE except God is idolatry.   The word used for abomination in v. 12 is toavah and is the word used to refer to the abomination of idolatry. 

<snip>

 

Well, you shared quite a bit in your response.   I would like to take your first claim and look at it more closely.

You said:

Prayers to dead people fall under the prohibitions of Deut. 18:10-12

 

What do these verses actually say:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12N

10 Let there not be found among you anyone who causes their son or daughter to pass through the fire,[a] or practices divination, or is a soothsayer, augur, or sorcerer, 11 or who casts spells, consults ghosts and spirits, or seeks oracles from the dead. 12 Anyone who does such things is an abomination to the Lord, and because of such abominations the Lord, your God, is dispossessing them before you.

 

This prohibts 8 very specific acts:

 

1. passing one's daughter or son through the fire
2. the practice of divniation
3. the practice of soothsaying
4. the practice of auguring
5. the practice of sorcery
6. the practice of casting spells
7. the practice of consulting ghosts or spirits
8. the practice of seeking oracles from the dead

 

Your claim is that prayers to the saints falls are attempts to communicate with dead people.

 

First, the above verses are very specific about what his prohibited.   There is nothing stating all communication with "dead" people is prohibited.

 

If this is what it said, then Jesus is guilty of breaking this rule of God, for he communicated with both Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration:

The Transfiguration

      1Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”6When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

 

 

Moses we know died.

Yet there was nothing wrong with Jesus talking to Elijah and Moses.  

 

Moses certainly had died.  So here is Jesus talking to the dead.  Yet that was not a violation of this passage in Deuteronomy.  So this passage is not a general all-compassing prohibition against talking to those who have gone on to be with Jesus before us.

 

So I have to ask again, where is the prohibition against prayers to the saints in heaven?

 

 

Edited August 14, 2015 by thereselittleflower
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[Guest shiloh357]

 

Prayers to dead people fall under the prohibitions of Deut. 18:10-12.   It is an attempt to communicate with dead people and God calls such things an abomination.  Praying to ANYONE except God is idolatry.   The word used for abomination in v. 12 is toavah and is the word used to refer to the abomination of idolatry. 

<snip>

 

Well, you shared quite a bit in your response.   I would like to take your first claim and look at it more closely.

You said:

Prayers to dead people fall under the prohibitions of Deut. 18:10-12

 

What do these verses actually say:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12N

10 Let there not be found among you anyone who causes their son or daughter to pass through the fire,[a] or practices divination, or is a soothsayer, augur, or sorcerer, 11 or who casts spells, consults ghosts and spirits, or seeks oracles from the dead. 12 Anyone who does such things is an abomination to the Lord, and because of such abominations the Lord, your God, is dispossessing them before you.

 

This prohibts 8 very specific acts:

 

1. passing one's daughter or son through the fire
2. the practice of divniation
3. the practice of soothsaying
4. the practice of auguring
5. the practice of sorcery
6. the practice of casting spells
7. the practice of consulting ghosts or spirits
8. the practice of seeking oracles from the dead

 

Your claim is that prayers to the saints falls are attempts to communicate with dead people.

 

First, the above verses are very specific about what his prohibited.   There is nothing stating all communication with "dead" people is prohibited.

 

The laws in the Bible do not cover every action, but provide us with us a behavioral paradigm.   The Bible doesn't list every sin a person could possibly commit.   For example, we are told not to make a graven image to worship or pray to.   But does that mean that an image created on paper instead of graven on stone or metal is okay?    If the law says what the punishment should be if my ox gores my neighbor's sheep, but doesn't say what to do if my dog kills my neighbor's sheep, does that mean that there is no punishment?

The point is that while "praying" to the dead is not specifically mentioned, it falls under the paradigm of communicating with dead people.  There are a number of things I could list off that we accept as sin, but are not listed specifically in the Bible as a sin.   

 

If this is what it said, then Jesus is guilty of breaking this rule of God, for he communicated with both Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration:

The Transfiguration

      1Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”6When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

 

 

Moses we know died.

Yet there was nothing wrong with Jesus talking to Elijah and Moses.  

 

Moses certainly had died.  So here is Jesus talking to the dead.  Yet that was not a violation of this passage in Deuteronomy.  So this passage is not a general all-compassing prohibition against talking to those who have gone on to be with Jesus before us.

 

So I have to ask again, where is the prohibition against prayers to the saints in heaven?

 The transfiguration is not even comparable  to the RCC sin of praying to dead  people. Jesus  was NOT  engaging in an attempt the kind of sins mentioned in Deuteronomy or anything like that.   The Greek suggests that Moses and Elijah were not apparitions, but were actually physically standing with Jesus.  They were not dead, but were  brought back to life in their physical form for that event and so Jesus was not talking to dead people at all.

[gdemoss]

Deuteronomy uses language that specifically prohibited the Israelites from seeking or enquiring of the dead.  How many NT examples of people prayingto the dead are there?  Trying to justify something by saying they are alive in heaven is a stretch.  Not enough to convince me that God is OK with the practice.

[enoob57]

Deuteronomy uses language that specifically prohibited the Israelites from seeking or enquiring of the dead.  How many NT examples of people prayingto the dead are there?  Trying to justify something by saying they are alive in heaven is a stretch.  Not enough to convince me that God is OK with the practice.

I think this is nail on the head stuff... we have enough clearly explained by God

to live a life of busyness for Him. After all the initial exit with satan was his

unwillingness to remain in the place God had placed him!  Love, Steven

[thereselittleflower]

 

Prayers to dead people fall under the prohibitions of Deut. 18:10-12.   It is an attempt to communicate with dead people and God calls such things an abomination.  Praying to ANYONE except God is idolatry.   The word used for abomination in v. 12 is toavah and is the word used to refer to the abomination of idolatry. 

<snip>

 

Well, you shared quite a bit in your response.   I would like to take your first claim and look at it more closely.

You said:

Prayers to dead people fall under the prohibitions of Deut. 18:10-12

 

What do these verses actually say:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12N

10 Let there not be found among you anyone who causes their son or daughter to pass through the fire,[a] or practices divination, or is a soothsayer, augur, or sorcerer, 11 or who casts spells, consults ghosts and spirits, or seeks oracles from the dead. 12 Anyone who does such things is an abomination to the Lord, and because of such abominations the Lord, your God, is dispossessing them before you.

 

This prohibts 8 very specific acts:

 

1. passing one's daughter or son through the fire
2. the practice of divniation
3. the practice of soothsaying
4. the practice of auguring
5. the practice of sorcery
6. the practice of casting spells
7. the practice of consulting ghosts or spirits
8. the practice of seeking oracles from the dead

 

Your claim is that prayers to the saints falls are attempts to communicate with dead people.

 

First, the above verses are very specific about what his prohibited.   There is nothing stating all communication with "dead" people is prohibited.

 

The laws in the Bible do not cover every action, but provide us with us a behavioral paradigm.   The Bible doesn't list every sin a person could possibly commit.   For example, we are told not to make a graven image to worship or pray to.   But does that mean that an image created on paper instead of graven on stone or metal is okay?    If the law says what the punishment should be if my ox gores my neighbor's sheep, but doesn't say what to do if my dog kills my neighbor's sheep, does that mean that there is no punishment?

The point is that while "praying" to the dead is not specifically mentioned, it falls under the paradigm of communicating with dead people.  There are a number of things I could list off that we accept as sin, but are not listed specifically in the Bible as a sin.   

 

If this is what it said, then Jesus is guilty of breaking this rule of God, for he communicated with both Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration:

The Transfiguration

      1Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”6When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

 

 

Moses we know died.

Yet there was nothing wrong with Jesus talking to Elijah and Moses.  

 

Moses certainly had died.  So here is Jesus talking to the dead.  Yet that was not a violation of this passage in Deuteronomy.  So this passage is not a general all-compassing prohibition against talking to those who have gone on to be with Jesus before us.

 

So I have to ask again, where is the prohibition against prayers to the saints in heaven?

 The transfiguration is not even comparable  to the RCC sin of praying to dead  people. Jesus  was NOT  engaging in an attempt the kind of sins mentioned in Deuteronomy or anything like that.   The Greek suggests that Moses and Elijah were not apparitions, but were actually physically standing with Jesus.  They were not dead, but were  brought back to life in their physical form for that event and so Jesus was not talking to dead people at all.

Shiloh,   I believe you are sincere, but very, very misguided.

You cannot show me any verse which prohibits asking those who have passed on to heaven in the body of Christ to pray for us on earth.

Instead you attempt to use a passage with very specific prohibitions but say nothing about asking those in Christ who are before the Throne of God to pray for us, then you try to draw some general statement from that passage.  There is no general statement there.  It is very, very specific.  I can only conclude you do no understand what you are reading in scripture.

I will address the use of the passage in Deuteronomy in another post, for it is being sorely misused. 

And then you say what Jesus did was not in any way comparable, that he didn't engage in any of the activities prohibited in the passage from Deuteronomy and you make false claims about what happened in the Transfiguration.

They were not brought back to life.  There is nothing in that passage of the Transfiguration that even hints that they were brought back to life.   The claim they were "brought back to life in their physical form for that event" is sheer invention -  a necessary invention for your pov to be correct, but invented to MAKE your pov correct.   You have added to scripture something that is not there.   

Again -  You have added to scripture.

NOTHING in the bible says anything at all to that effect.

You are right, they were not apparitions.  But you are wrong in that they were physically present in any earthly sense.   They were indeed truly there.  And Jesus did indeed truly talk with them.  

And you are right, his talking to them did not violate the prohibitions in Deuteronomy at all.

 

Neither does approaching the Saints in heaven to pray for us.   Though we cannot see them, we can know God enables them to hear our prayers and take them on our behalf to His throne:

 

Revelation 5:8

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

 

 

You also bring up the making of images, of bowing down to them and praying to them, and you accuse, not just the Catholic Church, but all the Churches and chrsitians everywhere who use statues of Saints.

Again, you err not understanding the scripture you try to use in such a manner.   

The words  "graven image" refer to something very specific.   They do not refer to any image of any kind.  They do not refer to any statue of any kind. They refer to something very, very, very specific, very common in pagan circles in lands among which the Hebrews lived.

A graven image was specifically an idol, and not what we  think of idols today, but what they were then, in that time.  

A graven image was one created in the likeness of a creature on earth - whether land, sea or air.  It was made by the individual with the express purpose of that image being a god itself.  The image did not respresent a god, the image WAS the god they were choosing to worship.  By their own hands they crafted their own gods.   That idol was their actual god, and they bowed down and prayed to it as if it were a god itself, because they believed it was.

No Catholic believes a statue is a god.    No Catholic, No Eastern Orthodox, No Coptic, No Oriental Orthodox, No protestant who asks the saints in heaven to pray for them believes a statue is the Saint it represents.  No Catholic, No Eastern Orthodox, No Coptic, No Oriental Orthodox, No protestant who asks the saints in heaven to pray for them believes a statue is anything other than a statue, made of whatever material, has no life, has no power in and of itself.   It is as likeness, it is a representation only.   No Catholic, No Eastern Orthodox, No Coptic, No Oriental Orthodox, No protestant who asks the saints in heaven to pray for them worships a statue.   They very clearly know it is not God, and No Catholic, No Eastern Orthodox, No Coptic, No Oriental Orthodox, No protestant who asks the saints in heaven to pray for them gives worship due God alone to any created being.

Your words are those of one who has absolutely no knowledge of the subject they speak of, who has believed and embraced the myths and lies created by others, so often repeated they have become "defacto truth" for those who 

You repeatedly and continually judge the outward actions which you frankly have absolutely no understanding of, without any understanding of what is transpiring in their heart.

Shiloh, I repeat my warning. Beware, for anyone who does so tempts God.

 

 

 

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

 

Now, in regards to the passage in Deuteronomy which prohibits consulting with the dead.

Deu 18:10-11

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

 

look at the words:

"with familiar spirits" "'owb"  means

 

1. water skin bottle

2. necromancer

   1. necromancer, one who evokes the dead

   2. ghost, spirit of a dead one

   3. practice of necromancy

3. one that has a familiar spirit

 

Look at that word "Consulting" "sha'al"

• to enquire of, consult (of deity, oracle)

What does "consulting" have to do here, in THIS passage, with "making a request" for a saint to join their prayers to ours to God (that is what prayer means . . making a request for something)?

 

The context is the practice of necromancy and using "familiar spirits."


Look at the word "consult":
 

Consult

CONSULT, v.i. [L., to consult, to ask counsel.]

1. To seek the opinion or advice of another by, by a statement of facts, and suitable inquiries, for the purpose of directing ones own judgment; followed by with.

Rehoboam consulted with the old men. 1 Ki 12.

David consulted with the captains of thousands. 1 Chr 13.

2. To take counsel together; to seek opinions and advice by mutual statements, enquiries and reasonings; to deliberate in common.

The chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus to death. John 12.

3. To consider with deliberation. Luke 14.

CONSULT, v.t. 

1. To ask advice of; to seek the opinion of another, as a guide to ones own judgment; as, to consult a friend or parent.

2. To seek information, or facts, in something; as by examining books or papers, Thus, I consulted several authors on the subject; I consulted the official documents.

3. To regard; to have reference or respect to, in judging or acting; to decide or to act in favor of. We are to consult the necessities, rather than the pleasures of life. We are to consult public as well as private interest. He consulted his own safety in flight.

Ere fancy you consult, consult your purse.

4. To plan, devise or contrive.

Thou hast consulted shame to thy house, by cutting off many people. Hab 2. [This sense is unusual and not to be countenanced.]

CONSULT, n. The act of consulting; the effect of consultation; determination; a council, or deliberating assembly. This word is, I believe, entirely obsolete, except in poetry. It would be naturally accented on the first syllable, but the poets accent the last.
 

Now look at Necromancer (it is the word that means "consult the dead" in the Old Testament)
 

Necromancer

NECROMANCER, n. [See Necromancy.] One who pretends to foretell future events by holding converse with departed spirits; a conjurer.
 

Consulting the dead in the Old Testament means getting information about the future from the dead to help make decisions .. it is an ungodly attempt to manipulate the future to one's own advantage . . 


Of course, God tells us the future when it is God's intent for us to know.

But Necromancy, "consulting the dead" in the OT, is man stepping outside of God's divine will to attempt to know the future for one's own personal gain and welfare outside of God's will . . . 

Consulting the dead is man's attempt to tap into the secret knowledge of the dead (according to pagans at the time) by initiating 2-way, face to face, communication with the dead with the intent to have a real time, two way discussion with the dead CONSULTING them for advice and knowledge about things to come and how to best use that knowledge illicitly gained .. .


Now, compare that with "pray"

Pray

PRAY, v.i. [L. precor; proco; this word belongs to the same family as preach and reproach; Heb. to bless, to reproach; rendered in Job 2:9, to curse; properly, to reproach, to rail at or upbraid. In Latin the word precor signifies to supplicate good or evil, and precis signifies a prayer and a curse. See Imprecate.]

1. To ask with earnestness or zeal, as for a favor, or for something desirable; to entreat; to supplicate.

Pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you. Mat 5.

2. To petition; to ask, as for a favor; as in application to a legislative body.

3. In worship, to address the Supreme Being with solemnity and reverence, with adoration, confession of sins, supplication for mercy, and thanksgiving for blessings received.

When thou prayest, enter into thy closet,and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. Mat 6.

4. I pray, that is, I pray you tell me, or let me know, is a common mode of introducing a question.

PRAY, v.t. To supplicate; to entreat; to urge.

We pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2 Cor 5.

1. In worship, to supplicate; to implore; to ask with reverence and humility.

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee. 

Acts 8.

2. To petition. The plaintiff prays judgment of the court.

He that will have the benefit of this act, must pray a prohibition before a sentence in the ecclesiastical court.

3. To ask or intreat in ceremony or form.

Pray my colleague Antonius I may speak with him.

[In most instances, this verb is transitive only by ellipsis. To pray God, is used for to pray to God; to pray a prohibition, is to pray for a prohibition, &c.]

To pray in aid, in law, is to call in for help one who has interest in the cause.
 

Pray means to "ASK" 

Of course, all consulting includes "asking" . . . but not nearly all "asking" includes "consulting .. . 


You are making the two equivalent . . they are not.

Prayer directed to saints gone on before us is merely asking that they take our prayers to God along with us.

Prayer directed to the saints gone on before us is not having a real time 2 way conversation with "the dead" initiated by man for the purpose of consulting the dead for information to foretell the future.

It is not NECROMANCY and it is not using familiar spirits.   

Since it is not Necromancy, since it does not use familiar spirits,  asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us is not included in the list in this passage from Deuteronomy.

The bible says nowhere that we cannot "ASK" the saints in heaven to pray for us . .. 

The bible forbids "CONSULTING" the dead - NECROMANCY . . . a very different topic altogether . .. 

 

There is still no verse in the scripture which prohibits us asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us and with us.

Edited August 14, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[enoob57]

I have read this foolishness of yours little flower and find this simple answer:

Why would anyone go through anyone else but Jesus a name above all names... except perhaps by the persuasion of the spirit of anti-Christ!

Let's face it when you are in dire straights to your save your life- you do not call your relatives to dial 911 for you... do you?

Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh,   I believe you are sincere, but very, very misguided

No, I am not the misguided one.   You are the one who prays to idols, not me. 

 You cannot show me any verse which prohibits asking those who have passed on to heaven in the body of Christ to pray for us on earth.

Instead you attempt to use a passage with very specific prohibitions but say nothing about asking those in Christ who are before the Throne of God to pray for us, then you try to draw some general statement from that passage.  There is no general statement there.  It is very, very specific.  I can only conclude you do no understand what you are reading in scripture.

I have presented Deut. 18 which prohibits contacting the dead.   In addition, and I realize you may be a little slow on the uptake, but I have endeavored to explain how not everything we know to be a sin is explicitly listed in Scripture.   I cannot find a verse that specifically prohibits spousal abuse, child molestation or child pornography.   But we don't have to present a verse that specifically prohibits those things.  We have enough light given to us regarding God's moral code that we can extrapolate a realization of those things as sin.   Same with praying to dead people.  We have enough light given to us that we don't need God to spell everything out in this matter.

Besides the "saints"  you pray to are in hell, not heaven.  Roman Catholicism isn't biblical Christianity.  It is merely a form of Christianity that doesn't have Christ in it.

 

They were not brought back to life.  There is nothing in that passage of the Transfiguration that even hints that they were brought back to life.   The claim they were "brought back to life in their physical form for that event" is sheer invention -  a necessary invention for your pov to be correct, but invented to MAKE your pov correct.   You have added to scripture something that is not there.   

Again -  You have added to scripture.

No, I have not added anything to Scripture.   I didn't say the Scriptures say they were raised from the dead.   I said the original Greek describes men in physical form standing on the mountain with Jesus and those men are Moses and Elijah.   I can deduce from that these were resurrected men, not spirits or apparitions and that conclusion is completely consistent with the whole Bible and  character of an all-powerful, all-knowing God. 

Neither does approaching the Saints in heaven to pray for us.   Though we cannot see them, we can know God enables them to hear our prayers and take them on our behalf to His throne:

 No one in heaven prays for us but Jesus (I Tim. 2:5)

 

You also bring up the making of images, of bowing down to them and praying to them, and you accuse, not just the Catholic Church, but all the Churches and chrsitians everywhere who use statues of Saints.

Again, you err not understanding the scripture you try to use in such a manner.   

The words  "graven image" refer to something very specific.   They do not refer to any image of any kind.  They do not refer to any statue of any kind. They refer to something very, very, very specific, very common in pagan circles in lands among which the Hebrews lived.

A graven image was specifically an idol, and not what we  think of idols today, but what they were then, in that time.  

Anyone who uses statues of saints  to pray to dead  "saints"  is an idolater.  The Bible doesn't say  that only graven images are forbidden.  All images,  be they engraved on stone, carved from wood, drawn on paper, are forbidden.   The specific medium from which the image was created isn't important.   That's what I mean by behavioral paradigm.

No Catholic believes a statue is a god.

 I never said they did.

No Catholic, No Eastern Orthodox, No Coptic, No Oriental Orthodox, No protestant who asks the saints in heaven to pray for them believes a statue is the Saint it represents.  No Catholic, No Eastern Orthodox, No Coptic, No Oriental Orthodox, No protestant who asks the saints in heaven to pray for them believes a statue is anything other than a statue, made of whatever material, has no life, has no power in and of itself.   It is as likeness, it is a representation only.   No Catholic, No Eastern Orthodox, No Coptic, No Oriental Orthodox, No protestant who asks the saints in heaven to pray for them worships a statue.   They very clearly know it is not God, and No Catholic, No Eastern Orthodox, No Coptic, No Oriental Orthodox, No protestant who asks the saints in heaven to pray for them gives worship due God alone to any created being.

I didn't say they worshipped the saints.   I said it is a sin to  treat these "saints"  as mediators between us and God when  the Bible clearly states that Jesus is  the ONLY one who prays for us in heaven.

Your words are those of one who has absolutely no knowledge of the subject they speak of, who has believed and embraced the myths and lies created by others, so often repeated they have become "defacto truth" for those who 

You repeatedly and continually judge the outward actions which you frankly have absolutely no understanding of, without any understanding of what is transpiring in their heart.

Shiloh, I repeat my warning. Beware, for anyone who does so tempts God.

No,  I am just working from what you say.   I am working from your posts and the claims you are making, which are unscriptural.    Praying to dead saints originates in the Apocrypha, not  the Christian Bible.   Praying to dead saints is not commanded or endorsed in Scripture.   Not one biblical reference to prayer gives us any indication that we should pray to people who have passed on.   The sole object of our prayers is Jesus and Jesus alone. 

[thereselittleflower]

Shiloh, as long as you refuse to learn, there is nothing anyone can teach you about the errors in your understanding.

 

Peace.