Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times

[Esther4:14]

I believe that Scripture states that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation.

Rick,

Many of us believe as you do so hold fast to your beliefs.  Those who hold other views will never change them so we will always be at an impasse. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ -- simply misguided.(

Just wondering, but doesn't that actually mean that YOU will never change your mind, that no matter what anyone says or shows you from the bible that you have already decided what's correct?

You could certainly interpret it that way.  I have yet to see one passage of Scripture that states that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are meant for the Church. This is a period of judgment and wrath on the unbelievers and the ungodly before the Second Coming of Christ.

"I am the vine and you are the branches.  If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit.  Apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:5). 

If the vine suffered on a cross for our sins, doesn't it stand to reason that the branches will also suffer tribulation?  Personally, I think that the pretrib rapture argument is a little bit like Peter trying to tell Jesus that He would not die on a cross-and Jesus rebuked him for this (Matthew 16:22-23). 

I think the problem comes because of the impression that we have about suffering; and, because we may have no experience with it.  Tribulation can be a blessing.  It can cause you to rely on faith in a way you never would have otherwise.  Picture it, if you were left in a lion's den (Daniel 6) with no cell phone or anything that would allow you to find help from another person, what else would you do but put your faith in God to deliver you? 

There are too many examples like this to assume that scripture even teaches that believers won't experience tribulation.  I do not believe we will experience the same tribulation.  I expect to stare in the face of a lion till it is over, is what I expect to do.  Not that I think that is a easy thing, but I don't think I will experience the same judgment because that is what the tribulation is about-the judgment of the Lord.  It will be like being in a rainstorm of acid that burns many, but I am actively seeking to be able stand in the rain like I would imagine Elijah would have been able to do. 

Therefore, what we should be doing because of this is finding ways to fast and deny the flesh to alleviate the sting of additional tribulations that will take place around us, so they will pass over us; instead of telling each other that we are not capable of doing things like Elijah did, and we will be raptured like cowards instead. 

Ezekiel is a very good example of this.  He made such an impression on me the first time I read about how God told him to lay on his side to bear the iniquity of Israel (Ezekiel 4:4).  There are many things that we could be doing like this to seek His favor as we approach the day of the Lord.  But, I will not allow myself to be deceived into thinking that I will be raptured when prophets like Ezekiel were not raptured.  Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, but he could also ask for rain and it was given to him (1 Kings 18-19).  I don't know many people who would be capable of this without a time of tribulation either. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Esther4:14

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh asked: " Yes, the Tribulation period concerns Israel and the Jews, not the Church.   The Church is not the focus of the anti-Christ's wrath;  Israel is.  Israel is the woman of Revelation 12.     If the Church were still in the tribulation, why send out 144,000 Jewish evangelists to evangelize the world?   What's the Church doing?  Are they silent?   It makes no sense.   That's one reason I don't accept a Post Tribulation view.  "

 

Oh, did I miss that one in the list of things the Bible does not say? The Bible says nothing about 144,000 Jewish evangelists. I'll go check and maybe add that to the list! - Never mind, just checked, I already had that in the list!

 

Yeah, well I am not really operating from any list of yours, and I don't really care about that list.  I am looking at Revelation  7:2-8.  It is pretty clear about the evangelists that are sealed and hail from the 12 tribes of Israel.  And we see in vv. 9-10 the fruit of their ministry.  So I am not exactly sure why you claim they are not mentioned in the Bible.   They are going to have an incredible ministry and will accomplish during the Tribulation what the church has failed to do in over 2,000 years.

[Omegaman 3.0]

quote: "

I did not get my view from Got Questions.I got the view from my interpretation.You are just not interpreting Scripture the way I do.All those verses show me the second coming which is separate from the rapture of the Church before the tribulation.

"Okay, let's look at the Bible instead of Got Question, or Rapture Ready or a left behind movie for our understanding:" 

Come on Omega you are not that haughty.

Edited Saturday at 10:05 PM by bopeep1909"

Thank you bopeep, that is a kindness, to say that I am not that haughty, thank you. I think though, that maybe there is some pride, arrogance, yes haughtyness, I know it certainly must at least come across that way. However, I think what it is mostly is that I have a lot of confidence in my view, and frankly, it is the debates with pre-tribbers that are boosting that. You say, that that you did not get that understanding from others, but from your interpretation of the Bible. I will take your word for that, but I find it hard to believe, never the less.

Here is why:

If that idea is contained is scripture, really, why did the church at large take almost no notice of, or recognition of that doctrine for over 1800 years? Are we in the western church of the 20th century and onward that much smarter or Spirit led, than the church before us? If so, that is haughty! Or is it that we are so special, that this (whichever) last generation of believers, some how get special treatment from God, and spared the suffering that have beset believers across time, and around the world? I find that a bit haughty myself.

We in the west, have had it so good, for so long, that many of us have the concept of persecution, as being criticized because we say Merry Christmas, instead of Happy Holidays. I m not speaking to you on this point, but to the modern western part of the church as a whole, primarily - WAKE UP! This is not persecution, having your head chopped off or being set afire for your faith, that is persecution!  That is the sort of thing that believers endure in some places, have in the past, and will in the tribulation.

I know the context is a bit different, I do not need that pointed out, but Jesus prayed:

"My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Normally, I do not prefer to interpret that Bible, something you keep accusing me of doing, and that you admit to doing. However, I see in that passage above, the idea that Jesus wants us in the world (though not of it). If believers are gone in the tribulation (as most pre-tribbers assert) and if the Spirit is gone at that time (as most pre-tribbers assert), is seems remarkable that God would have us gone, right when the world needs us the most. People in the trib will need Spirit filled believers like never before, but what, we expect people to come to faith without Christians and without the Spirit? Seems like a long-shot. So, what do pre-tribbers do? Well. some invent 144,000 Jewish evangelists - yes, that must be it, let's go with that, even though the Bible does not say that.

That is interpretation, and that is why I call pretriibbers "Bible Plus"! As said, you interpret, and then you say I do the same. I have heard this line of reasoning before. When a person has no biblical support for what they beleive, and stubbornly refuse to heed what the Bible says, they pull out the "that's YOUR interpretation" card. 

Some people "interpret" the Bible, and see that everyone is saved. Some interpret the Bible, and see that there is no Hell. Some interpret the Bible, and see that when people die, they just have "soul sleep", instead of consciousness. Some people interpret the Bible, and see a pre-trib rapture.

Other people read the Bible, and take it for what it says, without adding their interpretation, they just believe it, without adding things that the bible does not say.

Me, haughty? Maybe, people can judge that, God will.  However, I have listed things that the Bible does not teach, and you and many other, believe them anyway, that is interpretation and adding doctrines not from scripture.  It may not be that those doctrines came form Got Questions, etc. but they also did NOT come from scripture, but from interpreting scripture.

Similarly, I listed here, things that are in scripture, and almost unbelievably, pre-tribbers seem to want to resist those also. That is because they prefer interpretation, instead of believing that the Bible actually says certain things. They seem to not like what it says, so, they interpret it until it does say what they like. Some, maybe not you, gather to themselves teachers who tell them what their itching ears want to hear, not too surprisingly, just like Paul said would happen. (http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-3.htm) 

It is frustrating to me, you can probably tell, that people cannot tell the difference, between their belief of what the scripture means, and what the scripture actually says. To some, these entirely different things are one and the same, as if their interpretation is the same as God's revelation, to me, that is as haughty as one can get!

I apologize, bopeep, if this seems like I am picking on you. I am not, in fact, since you have already said that you will not change you mind (is that haughty?), then nothing here should be seen as for your instruction, you do not want to be taught, so feel free to ignore this. However, for the benefit of those who read the thread, some of them are open minded, willing to see what the Bible says and read how some people understand what it says.

My hope is that people get exposed to different positions, and let the truth win out! Thank you bopeep, for providing more opportunity for me to present a case for some of the things I have come to understand.

 

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Furthermore since the book of Revelation details this period of history, there is not even a hint of a Rapture throughout Revelation.

Not a hint? 

Rev 2:25 25 But hold fast what you have till I come.
Rev 3:3 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Rev 3:11 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
Rev 22:7 7 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
Rev 22:12 12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Rev 22:20 20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!  

Those could be hints!

[Omegaman 3.0]

13. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, while watchful Christians will know that He is about to come.

Any scriptural backing for this one? I seem to remember that the 'thief in the night' sayings were all directed at believers.

Oh, how about this?:

1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 

[Guest shiloh357]

quote: "

I did not get my view from Got Questions.I got the view from my interpretation.You are just not interpreting Scripture the way I do.All those verses show me the second coming which is separate from the rapture of the Church before the tribulation.

"Okay, let's look at the Bible instead of Got Question, or Rapture Ready or a left behind movie for our understanding:" 

Come on Omega you are not that haughty.

Edited Saturday at 10:05 PM by bopeep1909"

Thank you bopeep, that is a kindness, to say that I am not that haughty, thank you. I think though, that maybe there is some pride, arrogance, yes haughtyness, I know it certainly must at least come across that way. However, I think what it is mostly is that I have a lot of confidence in my view, and frankly, it is the debates with pre-tribbers that are boosting that. You say, that that you did not get that understanding from others, but from your interpretation of the Bible. I will take your word for that, but I find it hard to believe, never the less.

Here is why:

If that idea is contained is scripture, really, why did the church at large take almost no notice of, or recognition of that doctrine for over 1800 years? I we, in the western church of the 20th century and onward that much smarter or Spirit led, than the church before us? If so, that is haughty! Or is t that we are so special, that this (whichever) last generation of believers, some how get special treatment from God, and spared the suffering that have beset beleivers across time, and around the world? I find that a bit haughty myself.

We in the west, have had it so good, for so long, that many of us have the concept of persecution, as being criticized because we say Merry Christmas, instead of Happy Holidays. I m not speaking to you on this point, but to the modern western part of the church as a whole, primarily - WAKE UP! This is not persecution, having your head chopped off or being set afire for your faith, that is persecution!  That is the sort of thing that believers endure in some places, have in the past, and will in the tribulation.

I know the context is a bit different, I do not need that pointed out, but Jesus prayed:

"My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Normally, I do not prefer to interpret that Bible, something you keep accusing me of doing, and that you admit to doing. However, I see in that passage above, the idea that Jesus wants us in the world (though not of it). If believers are gone in the tribulation (as most pre-tribbers assert) and if the Spirit is gone at that time (as most pre-tribbers assert), is seem remarkable that God would have us gone, right when the world needs us the most. People in the trib will need Spirit filled believers like never before, but what, we expect people to come to faith without Christians and without the Spirit? Seems like a longshot. So, what do pre-tribbers do? Well. some invent 144,000 Jewish evangelists - yes, that must be it, let's go with that, even though the Bible does not say that.

That is interpretation, and that is why I call Pretriibbers Bible Plus! As said, you interpret, and then you say I do the same. I have heard this line of reasoning before. When a person has no biblical support for what they beleive, and stubbornly refuse to heed what the Bible says, they pull out the "that's YOUR interpretation" card. 

Some people "interpret" the Bible, and see that everyone is saved. Some interpret the Bible, and see that there is no Hell. Some interpret the Bible, and see that when people die, they just have "soul sleep", instead of consciousness. Some people interpret the Bible, and see a pre-trib rapture.

Other people read the Bible, and take it for what it says, without adding their interpretation, they just believe it, without adding things that the bible does not say.

Me, haughty? Maybe, people can judge that, God will.  However, I have listed things that the Bible does not teach, and you and many other, believe them anyway, that is interpretation and adding doctrines not from scripture.  It may not be that those doctrines came form Got Questions, etc. but they also did NOT come from scripture, but from interpreting scripture.

Similarly, I listed here, things that are in scripture, and almost unbelievably, pre-tribbers seem to want to resist those also. That is because they prefer interpretation, instead of believing that the Bible actually says certain things. They seem to not like what it says, so, they interpret it until it does say what they like. Some, maybe not you, gather to themselves teachers who tell them what their itching ears want to hear, amazingly, just like Paul said would happen. (http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-3.htm) 

It is frustrating to me, you can probably tell, that people cannot tell the difference, between their belief of what the scripture means, and what the scripture actually says. To some, these entirely different things are one and the same, as if their interpretation is the same as God's revelation, to me, that is as haughty as one can get!

I apologize, bopeep, if this seems like I am picking on you. I am not, in fact, since you have already said that you will not change you mind (is that haughty?), then nothing here should be seen as for your instruction, you do not want to be taught, so feel free to ignore this. However, for the benefit of those who read the thread, some of them are open minded, willing to see what the Bible says and read how some people understand what it says.

My hope is that people get exposed to different positions, and let the truth win out! Thank you bopeep, for providing more opportunity for me to present a case for some of the things I have come to understand.

 

 

 

To deny that you "interpret" the Bible is laughable and ludicrous.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Shiloh asked: " Yes, the Tribulation period concerns Israel and the Jews, not the Church.   The Church is not the focus of the anti-Christ's wrath;  Israel is.  Israel is the woman of Revelation 12.     If the Church were still in the tribulation, why send out 144,000 Jewish evangelists to evangelize the world?   What's the Church doing?  Are they silent?   It makes no sense.   That's one reason I don't accept a Post Tribulation view.  "

 

Oh, did I miss that one in the list of things the Bible does not say? The Bible says nothing about 144,000 Jewish evangelists. I'll go check and maybe add that to the list! - Never mind, just checked, I already had that in the list!

 

Yeah, well I am not really operating from any list of yours, and I don't really care about that list.  I am looking at Revelation  7:2-8.  It is pretty clear about the evangelists that are sealed and hail from the 12 tribes of Israel.  And we see in vv. 9-10 the fruit of their ministry.  So I am not exactly sure why you claim they are not mentioned in the Bible.   They are going to have an incredible ministry and will accomplish during the Tribulation what the church has failed to do in over 2,000 years.

Oh seriously Shiloh. Would you like to show me where it says that the 144,000 are evangelists? Or where is says they will be preaching or any such wording? You know better and I know that you know better. 

I never said that there are not 144,000 Jews mentioned who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. I just said that the Bible says nothing about them being evangelists, that is something people impose on the text - I won't! You say that is is "pretty clear". Well, pretty clear to me is when the words actually say that.

You may not care about my lists. However, they are accurate and have not be refuted - not one item on either list. So, while your interpretations are shaky additions and wishful thinking, at least my lists are faithful to the scriptures, without reading things in that are not there. You do not care about my lists? I am shocked, lol. Well, I do not care all that much about replies to the lists, when they object to the items on the list, but do not have scriptural reasons for such objections. 

Just as I have thanked others, thank you for helping to reveal the differences between what pre-trib rapture theorists have to say, ans what the Bible says in contrast. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Shiloh said:

"To deny that you "interpret" the Bible is laughable and ludicrous."

Well, that is your opinion I guess Shiloh, but why not put some meat on your accusation. What have I said on this topic, that is not a direct expression of what the sripture actually says? I have written a lot on this topic, if I am "interpreting" it should be easy for you to show an example of how what I say, is not in accordance with what the word says. I challenge you to either, show us where I have done that even one time on the topic of eschatology, and if you cannot, then at least have the integrity to admit that you cannot, and stop accusing me of things. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh asked: " Yes, the Tribulation period concerns Israel and the Jews, not the Church.   The Church is not the focus of the anti-Christ's wrath;  Israel is.  Israel is the woman of Revelation 12.     If the Church were still in the tribulation, why send out 144,000 Jewish evangelists to evangelize the world?   What's the Church doing?  Are they silent?   It makes no sense.   That's one reason I don't accept a Post Tribulation view.  "

 

Oh, did I miss that one in the list of things the Bible does not say? The Bible says nothing about 144,000 Jewish evangelists. I'll go check and maybe add that to the list! - Never mind, just checked, I already had that in the list!

 

Yeah, well I am not really operating from any list of yours, and I don't really care about that list.  I am looking at Revelation  7:2-8.  It is pretty clear about the evangelists that are sealed and hail from the 12 tribes of Israel.  And we see in vv. 9-10 the fruit of their ministry.  So I am not exactly sure why you claim they are not mentioned in the Bible.   They are going to have an incredible ministry and will accomplish during the Tribulation what the church has failed to do in over 2,000 years.

Oh seriously Shiloh. Would you like to show me where it says that the 144,000 are evangelists? Or where is says they will be preaching or any such wording? You know better and I know that you know better. 

I never said that there are not 144,000 Jews mentioned who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. I just said that the Bible says nothing about them being evangelists, that is something people impose on the text - I won't! You say that is is "pretty clear". Well, pretty clear to me is when the words actually say that.

You may not care about my lists. However, they are accurate and have not be refuted - not one item on either list. So, while your interpretations are shaky additions and wishful thinking, at least my lists are faithful to the scriptures, without reading things in that are not there. You do not care about my lists? I am shocked, lol. Well, I do not care all that much about replies to the lists, when they object to the items on the list, but do not have scriptural reasons for such objections. 

Just as I have thanked others, thank you for helping to reveal the differences between what pre-trib rapture theorists have to say, ans what the Bible says in contrast. 

No one competent in biblical interpretation sees them as anything other than evangelists.  It may not call them "evangelists" but that is precisely what they are, whether you make room for that fact or not.   I guess since the Bible doesn't mention "grandfathers" using your interpretation method we can conclude that it would be adding to Scripture to assert that there are grandfathers in the Bible.

The Bible implies and infers things that it doesn't spell out with the semantic precision we would like.  I can list a number of things we infer from Scripture that the Bible doesn't say that we understand to be true, such as the Trinity and the concept of legalism. 

I believe the Bible and I don't one thing to it which precisely why don't buy into the Post Trib Theory.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh said:

"To deny that you "interpret" the Bible is laughable and ludicrous."

Well, that is your opinion I guess Shiloh, but why not put some meat on your accusation. What have I said on this topic, that is not a direct expression of what the sripture actually says? I have written a lot on this topic, if I am "interpreting" it should be easy for you to show an example of how what I say, is not in accordance with what the word says. I challenge you to either, show us where I have done that even one time on the topic of eschatology, and if you cannot, then at least have the integrity to admit that you cannot, and stop accusing me of things. 

The rapture is not a doctrine.  There are at least 4 four different positions one can take (No rapture, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib).   All of them are based on Scripture taken from a particular point of view.  Yours is no different.   Everyone thinks their view is based on what they consider to be the best and most literal approach to the Bible.  Your interpretation carries no more weight than anyone else's.

Everyone interprets the Bible.  To deny that is simply not realistic. We all interpret what we read no matter what we are reading, whether it is the Bible, a novel, the newspaper, etc.    All of us have a method of literary analysis, and that includes you, like it or not.