Where was Eden - Was it actually in Israel?

[irishcowboy]

going with the topic title,

[Ovedya]

Actually, Mike's post makes a lot of sense, and it sheds more light on the significance of Iraq's freedom! In....my.....humble......opinion....

[tillmother]

To answer your question like ones before me; The Garden of Eden was in Iraq. I have to agree with Mike and his list. I actually have the same list. My Pastor said next to Israel, Iraq had alot of things happen in that country.

[eprom]

If Eden was in what is now Israel - how do you avoid a similar conflict with the head of the Nile? The Nile runs from the south to the north.  How could it's head be in Israel?

A review of the most commonly associated regions for Eden's original location are found in the www.faith-friends.com/Eden FAQ. All these traditionally accepted regions have desperate geographical challenges to make them viable candidates for Eden's original location, and advocates of these sites have to invariably concoct the missing rivers listed in Genesis 2.

However, after an honest reading the Genesis account of the rivers that define Eden's location, and knowing that the audience for this narrative was the Hebrew people shortly after they had escaped captivity in Egypt, the description here in Genesis 2 seems far to elaborate to be anything but a detailed report of where these four rivers were understood to emanated. The location of the Tigris and Euphrates in present day Iraq, Seria, and Eastern Turkey are undisputed. The problem scholars have had is accepting the clearly defined location of these other two rivers. So where are they?

"The name of the first [is] Pison: that [is] it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where [there is] gold; And the gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone." (Genesis 2:11, 12). The name of the river Pishon itself is not very helpful, but the name of the people Havilah identifies the area. The people are Arabian, as the Havilah are referenced in Genesis 25:18, and 1 Samuel 15:7, and are thought to be one of the Joktanean tribes in northern Arabia. During the time of the Exodus, there was a location to the east of Medina called Mahd ed Dahab, "the Cradle of Gold", towards the middle of the Arabian Peninsula, that was renowned for its pure gold and today remains one of the only areas in Saudi Arabia where gold is still produced. The Hebrews understood this gold of Ophir to be of the most excellent quality (Job 22:24), and later the Greeks would extol Arabia's gold as the kind so pure that it didn't need to smelted. Southern Arabia was also one of the few places in the world where bdellium was produced, and the semiprecious onyx can still be found throughout the Arabian Shield.

Affirming the Biblical reference of Arabia of Pishon, there was a recent discovery of an enormous ancient river bed in Arabia through the use of Shuttle Imaging Radar photos, This 3 to 6 Km wide river had started in the Hijaz Mountains near Medina and flowed 530 miles northeast into the Persian Gulf, just off the coast of present-day Kuwait. This matches our Biblical and historical information perfectly, so we can assume this first river mentioned in this Genesis 2 was obviously in Arabia, and the headwaters for this river would have been all around the Medina area.

"The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through the entire land of Cush" (Genesis 2:13). This time the name of the river is very helpful, as the ancient historian Josephus and the apocrypha book of Jubilees both define this river Gihon to be the Nile. As further conformation of this African location, this word Cush or Kuwsh in the Hebrew means black, and is mentioned 29 times in scripture. These references to Cush invariably refer to the land south of Egypt in Africa. So we have iron clad evidence for the Gihon River's location, and even the Tigris and Euphrates rivers would be less verifiable - this is the most recognizable river in the Biblical account.

You can see the scholar's dilemma in trying to work with these regions. How do you connect rivers with headwaters in eastern Turkey, Arabia, and Africa? How does this one river in Eden feed the headwaters of four rivers that are thousands of kilometers apart? The problem with these scholars perspective, however, is that they never asked themselves a far more fundamental question in the first place. How does one river ever feed the headwaters of four other rivers? Hydrology rarely works this way! The top of any river basin always has many rivers that funnel down into one river, not the other way around. A river doesn't spill a little bit of its water into one channel, go along a bit further and spill some more, until it feeds the headwaters of four different rivers. It empties itself out into that very first channel!

If we can solve the mystery of Eden's location, we need to stop thinking about a process of one river feeding four other rivers over the surface of the earth. This fact provides us with our first real clue in the hunt for Eden, and the mechanism is clearly explained earlier in Genesis 2.

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. Gen 2:6

So if we can imagine the Eden River acting as the initial water resource, flowing down below the earth's surface to eventually feed the springs of every main river resource known to the Hebrew people. In the center of these four rivers is Israel, with two great rivers to the north, and two great rivers to the south.

According to our model, if you were to send water down into the ground to ultimately feed what would become some of the greatest rivers in the world, one of the best place on the planet to do this would be to direct those waters into this Dead Sea Rift, which descends down not only 1400 ft below sea level, but continues down another 1200 ft to the bottom of the sea. In fact, all of the rivers mentioned in Genesis 2 are in top of, or in close proximity to the "Great Rift Valley", which the Dead Sea is just a part of. The headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers come remarkably close together in area known as Elazig in Turkey, just 150 Km from the top of the Great Rift Valley in Kahramanmaras. The Great Rift Valley then moves down through Israel and south along both sides of the Red Sea, following the coast of western Arabia to supply Pishon in Medina. Then, continuing south into Africa the rift moves along both sides of Lake Victoria, which is the location of Gihon's headwaters or what is better know as The Nile.

The dense salt water lake in the Dead Sea is a more recent geologic feature so the river from Mt Moriah would have flowed unimpeded down into this deep rift. The Great Rift Valley provides us with what?s known as a "Fractured Hydrogeologic Setting" where you can have groundwater movement along fractures, faults, joints and bedding planes. Most of the rock forms along the Great Rift Valley are limestones and dolomites, which are ideal for developing subterranean hydrological systems, as the surrounding rocks in the rift would have dissolved to produce what's known as a karst topographical setting. Depending on the timeframe and conditions, underground rivers would have soon formed along the rift as we see with the Dumanli spring in Turkey (largest karstic spring in the world), and the Je

[eprom]

You must remember the sheer scale of the Great Flood. Mt. Everest is about 6 miles tall. The account of the flood in Genesis says that the water was 15 cubits above the mountains!!!! that the fountains of the great deep were opened up(possibly mid ocean ridges)!!!! If you do the math of  30000ft of water rise in 40 days, you get a rate of water level rise of 31' 3" per hour for forty days. That much water, and moving with such violence could easily carve out the grand canyon, or even split whole continents apart. it was OVER SIX MILES deep by the time the rain stopped...Compare that to a major hurricane storm surge of 10-20 feet, or the Tsunami disaster lasting a few seconds of a 3 meter wave. Those were nothing compared to the great flood. It is possible Africa, Arabia, and Asia has been totally altered such that the rivers even flow in completely different directions from their original courses.

I know this is the standard creation science perspective, but it

[eprom]

My apologies then for misunderstanding you. I am at a loss for why the location of Eden affects hermaneutics. You seem to be heading towards a specific point. Im curious what that is.

Ayin

I know this is a different spin on traditional Hermeneutics, and I

[ayin jade]

When Noah sent the Dove from the ark, what did it come back with? It came back with an olive leaf! So the question is,

[ayin jade]

For example, just before King Saul is rejected as king, we see him abiding under a pomegranate tree in his hometown of Gibeah (1 Samuel 14:2), and just before he kills the priests of the Lord at Nob, we see him this time in Gibeah abiding under a tamarisk tree - kind of cedar (1 Samuel 22:6). It

[ayin jade]

There are other issues relating to Soteriology, Pneumatology, and Eschatology, but you specifically asked me about hermeneutics.

Ok, I'll bite. How does this affect those issues then?

[eprom]

And also...  This is something to think about! Since America is typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim passages... The following verse is from the Quran, (the Islamic Bible) Quran (9:11) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace. (Note the verse number!) The Location of Eden is not so much important, but what is important, is the Savior Jesus, and what He done did for us..... have a wondeful day, mike

God bless you brother, you are a thoughtful Christian man. You do not have to agree with my proposition for me to be blessed by your passion or ideas. That being said, I believe Pishon was in Arabia and the Gihon was the Nile for reasons already posted in this thread. Some of the Biblical reasons for this conviction follow:

Back to Paradise

Eden was a special place prepared by God for earth's human inhabitants to experience His presence, His provision and His pleasure. "Eden is the biblical paradigm of the original state of accord between God, man, and nature. It represents a state of harmony and peace that, since the hour its gates were closed, the world has never known" Rabbi Dovid Sears. In the same way, the Promised Land was given to Abraham and his decedents as a special dowry, authenticating the covenant relationship God was making with this, His chosen people. Through this land, God intended to bless His people with His presence, His provision and His pleasure, making them a light to the rest of the world, but they failed just as their forefathers did.

As Adam and Eve sinned and were sent out of the Garden, and then later Cain sinned and was sent away from the land of Eden altogether, so the Israelites are pictured as being expelled from their land of promise over and over again. When the Hebrew people turned back to God, His promise was always clear: "For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody." (Isaiah 51:3)

It is not necessary that they follow, but it would be reasonable to maintain that the very ground which saw the first sin & fall, be the very place of redemption and restoration. Why else would Israel be the Promised Land? Why else would God call Abraham from the east to this land if his purpose was not to defeat evil on the grounds of it's victory?

Identical Boundaries Defined Eden & Israel

The boundaries describing the rivers in Genesis 2:10-14 are the very same boundaries that define the Promised Land in Genesis 15. The land of Eden is described to be located within the boundaries of the Tigris and Euphrates to the north, to the Gihon or Egypt to the south. In Genesis 15:18, we find the land promised Land given to Abraham is defined by these same two rivers, the Euphrates and the River of Egypt.

The Mountain of God

It doesn't require a lot of imagination to come to the conclusion that the river from Eden had to flow down from a mountain, as it ended up feeding the headwaters of four other rivers. If this is the case, where was this mountain? The presence of God is often associated with mountains as: Moses retrieved the Decalogue from Mt. Sinai, Elijah shames the 400 prophets of Baal by bringing down fire from Heaven on Mt Carmel (Hebrew word for Carmel means orchard), and Jesus was transfigured on a high mountain (possibly Mt Hermon at the northern end of Israel by Lebanon). Mount Moriah is the King of the mountains as: a) God provided a substitute for Abraham?s son here (Genesis 22), b) Solomon built the first temple here (2 Chronicles c) Ezekiel had a awesome vision of God and the wheel within a wheel here (Ezekiel 8-10) d) It was here that a remnant of Israel returned from captivity in Persia (Ezra) e) It was here that Jesus was whipped and beaten like Ornan's threshing floor, shedding his blood for a sinful and rebellious world.

Mount Moriah is present in scripture as ?God?s Holy Mountain?, and during Ezekiel?s prophecy against the King of Tyre in (Ezekiel 28:13, 14), Eden is tied together with the "holy mountain of God". Other verses that seem to tie "God's Holy Mountain" together with Eden are: Joel 2:1-3, and Micah 4:1-4, and the future propagation of this mountain (or Eden) throughout the rest of the world is also tied together with the Kingdom of God (Isaiah 25:6-9; 56:3-8, Daniel 2:34-35, 44-45)

Eden in the Temple

Dr Ernest L. Martin seems to be one of the first Bible scholars to have associated the Garden of Eden with the tabernacle God had Moses build, and the temple on Mt. Moriah. We also believe that Eden's river flowed from the alter rock in the temple area, or what was Ornan's Threshing Floor (a picture of the rock that Moses struck in the desert, and of Jesus being whipped and beaten) and went out into the Garden, which was in the Mt of Olives. The tree of life in Eden would have been located where Jesus died on a cross, or in Bethany where Jesus made his home in Judea, not in the Holy of Holies.

Another difference in our perspective with Dr Martin?s Eden temple is the inclusion of the Genesis 1 account. We also see the temple carrying the physical representative of this first creation account, as:

Day 1 - Structuring of space (light/darkness)

Day 2 - Structuring of the sky and sea.

Day 3 - Structuring of the land.

Day 4 - Patterning of space's residents (Sun, Moon, stars).

Day 5 - Patterning of the sky and sea?s residents (birds, insects, fish).

Day 6 - Patterning of the land?s residents (animals and humans).

Day 7 ? Focus on God?s rest (Heaven)

Each of these spheres of creative powere and life are all the areas in which God extends His dominion. We see the expresion of the various spheres in the tabernacle/temple as: outside the temple is representative of the dwelling place of humanity (or the earthy sphere of God?s creation), the outer courts of the temple are open to the sky with a giant bowl called "The Sea" representing the realm of the atmosphere and sea, the inter courts are represented by space with images of the sun, moon and stars sewn into the fabric of the temple's veil, and the Holy of Holies is representative of the very dwelling place of God (Heaven).

Also, as Dr Martin points out, the temple is a physical representative of the Eden account in Genesis 2, as:

- The Tabernacle and the Temple always faced east as did the entrance to Eden, and the eastern gates of the Temple were prophesied to be sealed until the restoration of all things by the Messiah.

- The veil in the temple which separated the inter court from the Holy of Holies had two cherubim's embroidered into the cloth, along with a blossoming almond tree. There are only two places in all of scripture where cherubim are seen guarding the entrance of anything, and blossoming almond tree clearly represents the Tree of Life.

As a final point, the image of trees seen here in Eden is a pervasive metaphor observed throughout the rest of scripture. Rebellious Israel is always pictured as a fruitless fig tree, and the obedient believer is viewed as a productive vine. The Bible differentiates between what are consistently considered to be good trees and bad trees, with the palm and olive trees always representing good, and evergreens always representing evil (the Israelites placed their idols and sacrificed to them under these trees). The worst of all the evergreens, the great cedar in Ezekiel 31, is evil personified and represents both Satan and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So it?s no coincidence that the temple was made out of cedar, with palm trees carved into the wood, for these two trees represented the tree of life (Palm), and the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Cedar) - symbolizing the redemptive process of God, transforming that which is in the midst of evil, into life.

Direct Bible Refferences Associating Eden & Israel

Gen.13:10: "And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it [was] well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, [even] as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar." - Upon entering into the land, Abraham & Lot saw the region and compared the area to the Garden of Eden.

2Kings 19:12 "Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed; [as] Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which [were] in Thelasar?" - It states that Cain went to the land of Nod, East of Eden after he was judged for murdering his brother (Genesis 4:16). Here we see the Children of Eden in Thelasar, which was a province captured by the Assyrian and appears in Assyrian inscriptions as Tilasuri. This area just happens to be due east of Israel.

Jeremiah 31:12 "Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all." - The restoration of Israel will be like returning to the Garden of Eden.

Lamentations 2:6: "And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as [if it were of] a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest." - Jeremiah was lamenting that Israel was being destroyed just as the Garden of Eden had before it.

Ezekiel 31:16, 18 "I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth . . . To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with [them that be] slain by the sword. This [is] Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD." - Lebanon, representing by Assyria (possibly because of the famous Assyria epic of Gilgamesh and his heroic trip to Cedar Mountain in Lebanon), would be cut down together with the trees of Eden, represented by Judah and their alliance with the Pharaoh of Egypt. This prophecy would ultimately be fulfilled by the kingdoms of Babylonia and Persia.

Ezekiel 36:35 "And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities [are become] fenced, [and] are inhabited." - Disobedient Israel experiences the same fate as the Garden of Eden.

Amose 1:5 "I will break also the bar of Damascus, and cut off the inhabitant from the plain of Aven, and him that holdeth the sceptre from the house of Eden: and the people of Syria shall go into captivity unto Kir, saith the LORD." - The Syrians who had sovereign rule over Israel at that time are said to, ?holdeth the sceptre from the house of Eden?

Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." - The Greek word here for paradise is paradeisos and comes from the Hebrew word, pardace which means "an orchard or and enclosed garden?. Jesus was telling the thief that he was going to be taken to Eden.