Creation and an Old Earth - One Possibility

[Kan]

Hazard, 

It seems to me that your reasoning, is like beginning with the Bible, then being slung away from it, and then trying to land in the same spot on the Bible with double vision.

 

Not my reasoning, I just read the Scriptures and if I am unsure of something I gather each and every scripture I can on the topic or doctrine I am studying, put them all together and with an open and honest hart try and get the big picture, ignoring all  the ideas, traditions, and teachings of men, relying purely on the Holy Spirit, and after many hours of study and prayer, God reveals all He has to tell us. Its that simple. And theres never any need to try and big note ones self by trying to put another down in any way.

Some people are at the bottom of the ladder of biblical knowledge, some are nearing the top, and most are somewhere in between. Lets help those at the bottom, and those in between, try and refrain from pulling those above down, without sure and proper Scriptures showing they are in error, if in fact the are.. Theres a start.

I'm not questioning your studies or intention, but just what you wrote, which I did not read in detail, I'm sorry, because you said something about Lucifer reigning on earth, and then Adam coming along, something about Lucifer's flood as well as Noah's flood,... I'm not sure, but it did not ring true. I think if those things were true, they would have been mentioned by someone in the Bible. 

I like the fact that you are prepared to think outside of the norm, but we all need to be wary of teachers who pick a whole lot of texts out of their context, and string them up for a new theory. You know as well as I, that false teachers can be bright about many aspects of truth, but they usually have a clanger at the end of their treatise.

[Kan]

The whole point of the story of God's creative power, is to show that God is not indebted to any pre -existing material to make anything. This principle is also true of the Gospel, which declares righteousness where there is none.

If the truth be known, the false theories about creation injected into the Christian world, are designed by Satan to pry people off from God, to doubt and question His ability and willingness to recreate and save.

It is Satan's aim to get people to look at themselves for leverage to get to heaven, by telling us that the Christian walk is like evolution, getting better and better, and feeling like we are making progress. That mindset cannot be benefited by Christ, because the poor in spirit, not the progressing in spirit, will be saved. We are never to think that we are saved by progress and a general improvement based on our assessment of feelings. We are saved by the pure sacrifice of God in Christ, and that will always be sufficient. But to come into the wedding with one's own garment, and not wearing the free garment of righteousness by faith, is certain disappointment and loss.

And we are never to think that we have some merit by which to claim God's forgiveness. That is what is meant by 'pre -existing material' for God to use in salvation or in creation - there is no such thing with God, in salvation or creation.

[Guest shiloh357]

bopeep 1909 said "The earth is 6,000 years old.Give or take a few hundred years"

 

You can believe that if you want, no worries at all. Deny scriptures all you like.

 

When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life on Earth, we can speak with Bible authority that it was about 6000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam. In no Scripture are we taught to believe that the heavens and the Earth were originally created during the six days and at the time of Adam about 6000 years ago.

Actually that is precisely how the Bible represents it.  The Bible never claims that there was a pre-existing earth.  That is just myth and it is heresy because it denies the redemptive nature of God.  You don't really believe the Bible.  You believe Dake and he is the filter through which you read the Bible (as opposed to the Holy Spirit being that filter).

[HAZARD]

bopeep 1909 said "The earth is 6,000 years old.Give or take a few hundred years"

 

You can believe that if you want, no worries at all. Deny scriptures all you like.

 

When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life on Earth, we can speak with Bible authority that it was about 6000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam. In no Scripture are we taught to believe that the heavens and the Earth were originally created during the six days and at the time of Adam about 6000 years ago.

Actually that is precisely how the Bible represents it.  The Bible never claims that there was a pre-existing earth.  That is just myth and it is heresy because it denies the redemptive nature of God.  You don't really believe the Bible.  You believe Dake and he is the filter through which you read the Bible (as opposed to the Holy Spirit being that filter).

You totally ignore "ALL" the scripture which clearly teaches God in His anger because of Lucifers rebellion and attempt to invade Heaven and toss God off His throne the earth was completely destroyed, mountains turned upside down and "ALL LIFE" was destroyed, which is a totally different scene compared to Noahs flood in which animals, Noah, his three sons and daughters survived,  the sun moon and stars still shone.

Lucifer wanted to control the universe and knock God off His throne. He over a long period of time convinced one third of God's angels to rebell with him and they rebelled against God and His universal rule, and invaded heaven to try and de-throne God Himself.

READ THIS, and believe it (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14), or ignore it as you do most other scriptures on many doctrins.

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God

READ THIS< (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26;  Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, it was not turned upside down during Noahs flood and animals and Noahs family did survive.

[HAZARD]

Hazard, 

It seems to me that your reasoning, is like beginning with the Bible, then being slung away from it, and then trying to land in the same spot on the Bible with double vision.

 

Not my reasoning, I just read the Scriptures and if I am unsure of something I gather each and every scripture I can on the topic or doctrine I am studying, put them all together and with an open and honest hart try and get the big picture, ignoring all  the ideas, traditions, and teachings of men, relying purely on the Holy Spirit, and after many hours of study and prayer, God reveals all He has to tell us. Its that simple. And theres never any need to try and big note ones self by trying to put another down in any way.

Some people are at the bottom of the ladder of biblical knowledge, some are nearing the top, and most are somewhere in between. Lets help those at the bottom, and those in between, try and refrain from pulling those above down, without sure and proper Scriptures showing they are in error, if in fact the are.. Theres a start.

I'm not questioning your studies or intention, but just what you wrote, which I did not read in detail, I'm sorry, because you said something about Lucifer reigning on earth, and then Adam coming along, something about Lucifer's flood as well as Noah's flood,... I'm not sure, but it did not ring true. I think if those things were true, they would have been mentioned by someone in the Bible. 

I like the fact that you are prepared to think outside of the norm, but we all need to be wary of teachers who pick a whole lot of texts out of their context, and string them up for a new theory. You know as well as I, that false teachers can be bright about many aspects of truth, but they usually have a clanger at the end of their treatise.

Thank you Kan. That's the way to learn anything. Its harder to get rid of old teaching than absorb new.

There were two great folds recorded in Scripture, Lucifers flood, and Noahs flood and there is a great difference between them. I have compiled Scriptures which describe each one andanyone can see the great difference between them. I will for you post these again. You read them and make up your own mind and forget others who boldly call God a lier and say these scriptures do not exist or mean what they say. Take your time and absorb them, you will see it.

 

Here’s the Scriptures that show a vast difference between the flood God hit the Earth with in His anger after Lucifers rebellion, and the flood of Noah. I will head the Scriptures L.F for Lucifers Flood, and N.F. for Noahs Flood.

 

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16). Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and all the animals on the Arc were saved alive to start over.

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

 

This proves the Earth was PLENISHED" before because God told Noah to go and RE-PLENISH the earth, Genesis 9:1, ‘And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and REPLENISH the earth.”

 

Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.

Now, 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

 

[HAZARD]

The whole point of the story of God's creative power, is to show that God is not indebted to any pre -existing material to make anything. This principle is also true of the Gospel, which declares righteousness where there is none.

If the truth be known, the false theories about creation injected into the Christian world, are designed by Satan to pry people off from God, to doubt and question His ability and willingness to recreate and save.

It is Satan's aim to get people to look at themselves for leverage to get to heaven, by telling us that the Christian walk is like evolution, getting better and better, and feeling like we are making progress. That mindset cannot be benefited by Christ, because the poor in spirit, not the progressing in spirit, will be saved. We are never to think that we are saved by progress and a general improvement based on our assessment of feelings. We are saved by the pure sacrifice of God in Christ, and that will always be sufficient. But to come into the wedding with one's own garment, and not wearing the free garment of righteousness by faith, is certain disappointment and loss.

And we are never to think that we have some merit by which to claim God's forgiveness. That is what is meant by 'pre -existing material' for God to use in salvation or in creation - there is no such thing with God, in salvation or creation.

When was in the beginning? was it 6000 years ago? Never.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." If this happened only 6000 years ago then God who is believed to be Immortal with no beginning and no end must also be 6000 years old as well. But all is not as fundamental Christianity teaches and believes. Why?

John 1:1, teaches, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." . . . and;

John 1:2, The same was in the beginning with God. Verse, 3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

The confusion lies in the fact that the Earth was re-created about 6000 years ago after being destroyed and left in darkness for an unknown length of time.

Scriptures clearly teach that God created all things, that is, the entire universe and all things therein, TO BE INHABITED. Where God lived before He created the universe is not mentioned in the Scriptures and therefore not worth persuing.

God says He created (THRONES, DOMINIONS, and PRINCIPALITIES). All were Created by Him to be inhabited.

Revelation 12:12, Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, (PLURAL) and ye that dwell in them (PLURAL). Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Colossians 1:16, For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: He has named every star; Psalm 147:4, He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. (THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES. He created them all TO BE INHABITED).

Isaiah 45:18, For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:

God even has an army which follows Him;

Revelation 19:14, And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Why would God have need of armies? Would it be to defend His creation of rebels or to put down rebellion?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

 

So in this scenario, Yes the universe is 4 billion years old, all of science would register that.... because that is the way God made it....6000 years ago.

The "appearance of age" is certainly a possibility, if the measurements are in fact correct for the billion-year scenario. We know for a fact that everything which was created was fully and functionally mature, and the proof is in the naming of the animals by Adam.  It would appear that God caused them to gather around or walk past Adam, and God gave him the wisdom to name them appropriately (probably in Hebrew).

At the same time God embedded a literal six-day period of creation within the Ten Commandments so that there would be no question that those were literal 24-hour days. He also embedded the formula "evening and morning" in Genesis to confirm that He really meant regular diurnal days.

So how many centuries would it take for Adam to name every creature God created?  Now remember, you have to include all the dinosaurs too.  What about fish?  Don't fish get names?  How about insects?

[Guest shiloh357]

We operate from the misguided idea that every animal and insect we see today was created Genesis 1.  There are far more species today than what was present at creation, given how much breeding has taken place over the millennia.  Everything could have easily been accomplished in 24 hours.   It is likely that Adam didn't name every species, but rather every family or every kind.  

[Ezra]

So how many centuries would it take for Adam to name every creature God created?

  Now remember, you have to include all the dinosaurs too.  What about fish?  Don't fish get names?  How about insects? [/quote]

Actually if you would simply read the Genesis account, you would discover that it took a fraction of a day for Adam to name all the animals! God had endowed Adam with sufficient wisdom and capability to rapidly name all the animals (Gen 2:19,20), possibly instinctively.

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

[Kan]

Hazard, 

I don't agree with the concept of a world before creation, and I think that you have studied with an unorthodox way of reading. You can put your theory and interpretation to any English teacher or professor, and let them read the texts you provided, and they will explain what you are doing, and how you are getting your conclusions. There is a place for that kind of reading, for example in mystic writings, but the Bible does not have hidden meanings. Some meanings are not clear due to ignorance and nothing else.

Nevertheless I like some of the concepts you have put forward, in regards to the angelic hosts, and the various hierarchies of heaven, which are not normally understood, outside of the Hebrew world.