The Sovereignty of God

[ghtan]

Faith is not meant to be blind.

Correct. Faith is founded squarely on Divine revelation. While God know all future events (omniscience and foreknowledge), God DOES NOT predetermine all events and all decisions by all men. He predetermines some things only, but brings about His plans and purposes while taking all things into account.

If God predetermines only some things, and given that you say God knows ALL future events, how does he know ahead of time the future events that he does not predetermine? 

God's foreknowledge provides Him with the knowledge of all future events. That is already included in His omniscience (knowledge of all things). God predetermined the crucifixion of Christ (Acts 2:23a).  But the wickedness of those who condemned Him was foreknown (Acts 2:23b).  Hence we have Psalm 22.

What makes you think God did not also predetermine Acts 2:23b? How do you decide what is predetermined and what is 'foreknown'? And what do you mean by 'foreknow'? How does God actually foreknows those things? But, assuming you are right that God did not predetermine 23b but only 'foreknew' it, how does it follow that God 'foreknows' ALL future events? Are all future events important enough for God to 'foreknow'?

[gdemoss]

God is responsible for sin and the fall of man and as such God has taken care of his responsibility by sending his only begotton son into the world to pay the price for sin and redeem creation.  Before God created anything he knew what would happen and he did it anyway.  That makes him responsible for that which he allows when God is in fact supreme authority and power over all.  There is nothing that can happen period without his permission.  That said, we cannot even begin to question Gods righteousness in any of these decisions for we could not amswer him one of a thousand questions he would ask us if we did.  

The truth of the matter is that God must predestine all things by either choosing to interfere or not to interfere for he knows all beforehand and has the power to decide.  We may not like that but it is true.  God IS good.

[Ezra]

Faith is not meant to be blind.

Correct. Faith is founded squarely on Divine revelation. While God know all future events (omniscience and foreknowledge), God DOES NOT predetermine all events and all decisions by all men. He predetermines some things only, but brings about His plans and purposes while taking all things into account.

If God predetermines only some things, and given that you say God knows ALL future events, how does he know ahead of time the future events that he does not predetermine? 

God's foreknowledge provides Him with the knowledge of all future events. That is already included in His omniscience (knowledge of all things). God predetermined the crucifixion of Christ (Acts 2:23a).  But the wickedness of those who condemned Him was foreknown (Acts 2:23b).  Hence we have Psalm 22.

What makes you think God did not also predetermine Acts 2:23b? How do you decide what is predetermined and what is 'foreknown'? And what do you mean by 'foreknow'? How does God actually foreknows those things? But, assuming you are right that God did not predetermine 23b but only 'foreknew' it, how does it follow that God 'foreknows' ALL future events? Are all future events important enough for God to 'foreknow'?

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

[Willa]

Joseph told His brothers who had sold him into slavery in Egypt, you meant it for evil against me but God meant it for good.  Genesis 50:20.  

I think of God being like the Master chess player Who also invented the game.  So He has all counter moves to play into His hands, and a plan to triumph is ready for any event.  There is no move that He hasn't foreseen. 

It works for me.

[ghtan]

God's foreknowledge provides Him with the knowledge of all future events. That is already included in His omniscience (knowledge of all things). God predetermined the crucifixion of Christ (Acts 2:23a).  But the wickedness of those who condemned Him was foreknown (Acts 2:23b).  Hence we have Psalm 22.

What makes you think God did not also predetermine Acts 2:23b? How do you decide what is predetermined and what is 'foreknown'? And what do you mean by 'foreknow'? How does God actually foreknows those things? But, assuming you are right that God did not predetermine 23b but only 'foreknew' it, how does it follow that God 'foreknows' ALL future events? Are all future events important enough for God to 'foreknow'?

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

I take it you are saying that knowing the future is part of being God, like God is good or God is love or God is eternal, etc.. How then did Jesus not know the time of his return (Mk 13:32)? If knowing the future is part of being God and Jesus is God, then shouldn't he have known the time of his return?

[Ezra]

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

I take it you are saying that knowing the future is part of being God, like God is good or God is love or God is eternal, etc.. How then did Jesus not know the time of his return (Mk 13:32)? If knowing the future is part of being God and Jesus is God, then shouldn't he have known the time of his return?

There is only one time in Scripture when Christ says that there is something not known to Him, but to the Father only. God the Father is “the Head” of Christ (1 Cor 11:3), and Jesus was the Servant of Jehovah while on earth (Isa 52:13-15). Thus Matthew Henry’s comment on this verse is very helpful, although he quotes Dr. Lightfoot:

Dr. Lightfoot explains it thus; Christ calls himself the Son, as Messiah. Now the Messiah, as such, was the father’s servant (Isa. 42:1 ), sent and deputed by him, and as such a one he refers himself often to his Father’s will and command, and owns he did nothing of himself (Jn. 5:19 ); in like manner he might be said to know nothing of himself.

At the same time we should not forget what the Gospel of John says regarding Christ’s foreknowledge and omniscience (Jn 13:19), where the Greek says “ye may believe that I AM [he added]” to prove His Deity: Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]. Christ’s omniscience is also evident in that He prophesied that (a) all His apostles would forsake Him, (b) that following  His resurrection He would meet them in Galilee, and also (c) that Peter would betray him before the cock had crowed twice (Mk 14:27-30). Indeed, Christ knew precisely each and every thing in His ministry before it occurred, so that prophecy upon prophecy was fulfilled (Mt 16:21).

[ghtan]

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

I take it you are saying that knowing the future is part of being God, like God is good or God is love or God is eternal, etc.. How then did Jesus not know the time of his return (Mk 13:32)? If knowing the future is part of being God and Jesus is God, then shouldn't he have known the time of his return?

There is only one time in Scripture when Christ says that there is something not known to Him, but to the Father only. God the Father is “the Head” of Christ (1 Cor 11:3), and Jesus was the Servant of Jehovah while on earth (Isa 52:13-15). Thus Matthew Henry’s comment on this verse is very helpful, although he quotes Dr. Lightfoot:

Dr. Lightfoot explains it thus; Christ calls himself the Son, as Messiah. Now the Messiah, as such, was the father’s servant (Isa. 42:1 ), sent and deputed by him, and as such a one he refers himself often to his Father’s will and command, and owns he did nothing of himself (Jn. 5:19 ); in like manner he might be said to know nothing of himself.

At the same time we should not forget what the Gospel of John says regarding Christ’s foreknowledge and omniscience (Jn 13:19), where the Greek says “ye may believe that I AM [he added]” to prove His Deity: Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]. Christ’s omniscience is also evident in that He prophesied that (a) all His apostles would forsake Him, (b) that following  His resurrection He would meet them in Galilee, and also (c) that Peter would betray him before the cock had crowed twice (Mk 14:27-30). Indeed, Christ knew precisely each and every thing in His ministry before it occurred, so that prophecy upon prophecy was fulfilled (Mt 16:21).

One time is one time too many. Would we believe that there could be one time that God is not good or one time that he is not loving or one time that he is not eternal? That Jesus knew many things about the future is without doubt. But Mk 13:32 indicates there were some things Jesus did not know about the future. Yet he was fully God. I think the only way to reconcile this is that knowing the future is not part of BEING God but it is what he is able to DO. And God can choose what he wants to do and what he does not want to do.

[missmuffet]

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

I take it you are saying that knowing the future is part of being God, like God is good or God is love or God is eternal, etc.. How then did Jesus not know the time of his return (Mk 13:32)? If knowing the future is part of being God and Jesus is God, then shouldn't he have known the time of his return?

There is only one time in Scripture when Christ says that there is something not known to Him, but to the Father only. God the Father is “the Head” of Christ (1 Cor 11:3), and Jesus was the Servant of Jehovah while on earth (Isa 52:13-15). Thus Matthew Henry’s comment on this verse is very helpful, although he quotes Dr. Lightfoot:

Dr. Lightfoot explains it thus; Christ calls himself the Son, as Messiah. Now the Messiah, as such, was the father’s servant (Isa. 42:1 ), sent and deputed by him, and as such a one he refers himself often to his Father’s will and command, and owns he did nothing of himself (Jn. 5:19 ); in like manner he might be said to know nothing of himself.

At the same time we should not forget what the Gospel of John says regarding Christ’s foreknowledge and omniscience (Jn 13:19), where the Greek says “ye may believe that I AM [he added]” to prove His Deity: Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]. Christ’s omniscience is also evident in that He prophesied that (a) all His apostles would forsake Him, (b) that following  His resurrection He would meet them in Galilee, and also (c) that Peter would betray him before the cock had crowed twice (Mk 14:27-30). Indeed, Christ knew precisely each and every thing in His ministry before it occurred, so that prophecy upon prophecy was fulfilled (Mt 16:21).

One time is one time too many. Would we believe that there could be one time that God is not good or one time that he is not loving or one time that he is not eternal? That Jesus knew many things about the future is without doubt. But Mk 13:32 indicates there were some things Jesus did not know about the future. Yet he was fully God. I think the only way to reconcile this is that knowing the future is not part of BEING God but it is what he is able to DO. And God can choose what he wants to do and what he does not want to do.

Question: "If Jesus was God, why did He not know when He would return?"

Answer: Speaking of Jesus' Second Coming, Matthew 24:36 (and Mark 13:32) tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowledge of the date and time of His return. Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14), when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6–8). He did not manifest them unless directed by the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38). He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions (cf. John 2:25; 3:13), but He voluntarily restricted that omniscience to only those things God wanted Him to know during the days of His humanity (John 15:15). Such was the case regarding the knowledge of the date and time of His return. After He was resurrected, Jesus resumed His full divine knowledge (cf. Matthew 28:18; Acts 1:7).

Matthew 24:36 clearly states that the Father alone knows when Jesus' return will be. Verses such as John 5:30;6:38; 8:28-29; 10:30; 12:49; 14:28, 31; and Matthew 26:39, 42 demonstrate Jesus' submission to the Father as well as their Oneness in the Godhead. Yes, they are both God. But some things Jesus had apparently chosen to "give up the rights" to be privy to during His earthly ministry (see Philippians 2:5-11). Jesus, now exalted in Heaven, surely knows all, including the timing of His Second Coming.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-know-return.html

Edited November 18, 2015 by bopeep1909

[ghtan]

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

I take it you are saying that knowing the future is part of being God, like God is good or God is love or God is eternal, etc.. How then did Jesus not know the time of his return (Mk 13:32)? If knowing the future is part of being God and Jesus is God, then shouldn't he have known the time of his return?

There is only one time in Scripture when Christ says that there is something not known to Him, but to the Father only. God the Father is “the Head” of Christ (1 Cor 11:3), and Jesus was the Servant of Jehovah while on earth (Isa 52:13-15). Thus Matthew Henry’s comment on this verse is very helpful, although he quotes Dr. Lightfoot:

Dr. Lightfoot explains it thus; Christ calls himself the Son, as Messiah. Now the Messiah, as such, was the father’s servant (Isa. 42:1 ), sent and deputed by him, and as such a one he refers himself often to his Father’s will and command, and owns he did nothing of himself (Jn. 5:19 ); in like manner he might be said to know nothing of himself.

At the same time we should not forget what the Gospel of John says regarding Christ’s foreknowledge and omniscience (Jn 13:19), where the Greek says “ye may believe that I AM [he added]” to prove His Deity: Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]. Christ’s omniscience is also evident in that He prophesied that (a) all His apostles would forsake Him, (b) that following  His resurrection He would meet them in Galilee, and also (c) that Peter would betray him before the cock had crowed twice (Mk 14:27-30). Indeed, Christ knew precisely each and every thing in His ministry before it occurred, so that prophecy upon prophecy was fulfilled (Mt 16:21).

One time is one time too many. Would we believe that there could be one time that God is not good or one time that he is not loving or one time that he is not eternal? That Jesus knew many things about the future is without doubt. But Mk 13:32 indicates there were some things Jesus did not know about the future. Yet he was fully God. I think the only way to reconcile this is that knowing the future is not part of BEING God but it is what he is able to DO. And God can choose what he wants to do and what he does not want to do.

Question: "If Jesus was God, why did He not know when He would return?"

Answer: Speaking of Jesus' Second Coming, Matthew 24:36 (and Mark 13:32) tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowledge of the date and time of His return. Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14), when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6–8). He did not manifest them unless directed by the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38). He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions (cf. John 2:25; 3:13), but He voluntarily restricted that omniscience to only those things God wanted Him to know during the days of His humanity (John 15:15). Such was the case regarding the knowledge of the date and time of His return. After He was resurrected, Jesus resumed His full divine knowledge (cf. Matthew 28:18; Acts 1:7).

Matthew 24:36 clearly states that the Father alone knows when Jesus' return will be. Verses such as John 5:30;6:38; 8:28-29; 10:30; 12:49; 14:28, 31; and Matthew 26:39, 42 demonstrate Jesus' submission to the Father as well as their Oneness in the Godhead. Yes, they are both God. But some things Jesus had apparently chosen to "give up the rights" to be privy to during His earthly ministry (see Philippians 2:5-11). Jesus, now exalted in Heaven, surely knows all, including the timing of His Second Coming.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-know-return.html

Not that I think the author is right but doesn't "voluntarily restricted the USE of ..." show that knowing the future is something God DOES and not something part of his being? Could Jesus have voluntarily restricted his goodness or his love or his eternal nature and still be God?

[Guest shiloh357]

God is responsible for sin and the fall of man and as such God has taken care of his responsibility by sending his only begotton son into the world to pay the price for sin and redeem creation.  Before God created anything he knew what would happen and he did it anyway.  That makes him responsible for that which he allows when God is in fact supreme authority and power over all.  There is nothing that can happen period without his permission.  That said, we cannot even begin to question Gods righteousness in any of these decisions for we could not amswer him one of a thousand questions he would ask us if we did.  

The truth of the matter is that God must predestine all things by either choosing to interfere or not to interfere for he knows all beforehand and has the power to decide.  We may not like that but it is true.  God IS good.

That is completely false and puts God in contraction with Himself.   God cannot predetermine sin but claim to also hate sin.   He cannot predetermine a person to sin, but then punish them for doing the very thing he predetermined that they would do it.   In legal terms, we call that "entrapment."    That is not how the Bible represents God.