The seed of Abraham

[Your closest friendnt]

Thank you for the the diraction to the scriptures, which I accept, but I had in mind (without judging), a kind of a different approch, just explaining the depths of this statement with your own words and without prejudice on my part, 

I have come to understan the gravity of this statement my self, but how can we make that point across to others, even those who seek to find Jesus in those lines of scripture in case they were taught otherwise.

You stated above that you "have come to understand the gravity of this statement" yourself.  Just how did you come to this understanding perhaps you can share your own experience with others in how you came to the knowledge of this truth.  The covenant of promise was made to Abraham before the law of Moses ever came into existence and the bringing in of the law did not disannul the promises God made to Abraham who believed God and it was accounted unto him as righteousness  So are we made the righteousness in Christ by faith as we are heirs of the promises apart from the law of Moses.

Abraham was justified by faith, this is easily understood but also he needed to remain obedient to a set of rules given him by God at a later time, the rules of sircumsition.

ismael was the seed of Abraham and he was born before the sircumsition, 

is Ismael a child of the rightnessnes that comes by faith as been born by the righteous Abraham?

Ismael was not heir nor was he the promised child of promise but it was Issac in whom Sara had in her old age God promised to Abraham.  None of the descendants of Ismael are heirs with Issac.

I understan the follow up, I read the same bible.

At the time Abraham believed what he believe any way God redirected him. 

The question is, if the rightsness Abraham had by faith if it was inherited to his descendant  Ismael who was born before the sircumsition?

 

Not under the Old Covenant but through Jesus Christ under the New Covenant anyone no matter who they are can be made the righteousness of God by or through the faith of Abraham who believed God.   Even the descendants of Ismael today can be saved if they confess their sins believe Jesus died and arose again on the third day.

This blessing upon Abraham to be justified by faith ended when God required from him the sircumsision.

he had to obey God, at that time God change the situation. He called him to a new rightsness through the  sircumsision not only for him, but also for his descendants.

The test is , that if Abraham had said that I am righteous by faith and I don't need to be Sircumsize to remain in the righteousness of God, he would be cut off from God, 

That also is telling us that the rightsness Anraham had by faith could not pass on to his descendants.

I understan about the rightsness of Jesus Christ by faith alone( but we are not there yet).

 Then were do you think we are then?

 

We are at the rightsness that came to the descendants of Abraham (and to Abraham him self) and before Isaak is born, because we are going to see that Isaak was the first one to have this blessing at birth.he was the first one to be sircumsize and be bless  with the new rules at birth. ( been the seed of Abraham, and having someone with the blessing himself, Abraham, Sircumsize him and in this way, even thought Isaak could not know and understand what was happening and by the will of others and not his own and without faith in God, had become heir of the rightsness that comes by the sircumsision without faith in God. 

(we also see that God had given that blessing to the others who where under his leadership). 

[Ezra]

This blessing upon Abraham to be justified by faith ended when God required from him the sircumsision.

YCF,

You do not seem to understand the meaning of being justified by faith.  That is based purely on God's grace, and the finished work of Christ. Since it provides the GIFT of eternal life, it does not end. Circumcision (outwardly) was a sign of inward circumcision, not a requirement to remain justified by grace through faith.  Grace means that no one deserves to be justified under any circumstances.  Therefore our faith is IMPUTED to us for righteousness.  But the righteousness is not ours, it is God's righteousness, placed upon the believer by grace.  We could go into a lot of Scripture to support this.

[Willa]

All the nations are blest through God's grace being extended to the gentiles.  Prior to this only the Jews were included in this.  But through faith in Christ's death for the sins of the world, and faith in His resurrection, we all can be made righteous.  That is the blessing,  

[Your closest friendnt]

All the nations are blest through God's grace being extended to the gentiles.  Prior to this only the Jews were included in this.  But through faith in Christ's death for the sins of the world, and faith in His resurrection, we all can be made righteous.  That is the blessing,  

Hi sister, yes I understan that Jesus died for all, and that what I believe.

we are looking into the past, and the Promish of God that was made to Abraham and in his walk with God. 

I will finish my job soon and I will reply to brother Ezra.

[Your closest friendnt]

"It was counted to him for righteousness" 

Abraham had his own righteousness And that's why God required from him his obedience.

The test to aplly is the following;    Had Abraham disobey God and did not Sircumsize himself, He would receive the reward of disobidience, and that is unrighteousness.

God invited him and his seed to a new righteousness through the obedience to the sircumsision.

That what he pass on to his children, the blood line and the sircumsision at birth, without their faith and without their will.

Abraham is earthy and Jesus Christ is heavenly. Jesus was the son of God and he was Promish a heavenly inheritance. 

Abraham was the son of an earthly man and was Promish an earthly inheritance. Abraham died and went to his fathers, 

Jesus died and went eventually to his Father in heaven.

Abraham needed the redeemer,         Jesus was the redeemer. 

Abraham had to wait for Jesus to died and take him out from Hades and to the heavenly Promish Land.

Abraham had seen this day and was waiting to come to pass. 

No one can not go to the Father in the heavens before Jesus Christ. Jesus was the first one to lead the way.

We have Jesus Christ righteousness, 

We are the children of God through Jesus Christ. We are not separated from God.

We are not the children of Abraham. Abraham is not our Redeemer.

We are of the blood and the spirit of Jesus Christ. He bought us with his blood and he gave us of his Spirit.

[Ezra]

"It was counted to him for righteousness" 

Abraham had his own righteousness And that's why God required from him his obedience.

If Abraham had his own righteousness (as you say) then he would not have needed to receive imputed righteousness (which was "counted to him [imputed] for righteousness"). So take your pick, since he could not have it both ways.

The test to aplly is the following;    Had Abraham disobey God and did not Sircumsize himself, He would receive the reward of disobidience, and that is unrighteousness.

This is false. Once God imputes righteousness to a sinner, He does not withdraw it, since it is the gift of God.

God invited him and his seed to a new righteousness through the obedience to the sircumsision.

Circumcision did not make anyone righteous. Study the New Testament,

That what he pass on to his children, the blood line and the sircumsision at birth, without their faith and without their will.

This too is false, since the majority of Israel and the majority of Jews were not saved.

We have Jesus Christ righteousness,

If you believe this, then why do you say "Abraham had his own righteousness"?

Looks to me like you are quite confused about the matter of imputed righteousness. Please study Romans 4.

[Your closest friendnt]

"It was counted to him for righteousness" 

Abraham had his own righteousness And that's why God required from him his obedience.

If Abraham had his own righteousness (as you say) then he would not have needed to receive imputed righteousness (which was "counted to him [imputed] for righteousness"). So take your pick, since he could not have it both ways.

The test to aplly is the following;    Had Abraham disobey God and did not Sircumsize himself, He would receive the reward of disobidience, and that is unrighteousness.

This is false. Once God imputes righteousness to a sinner, He does not withdraw it, since it is the gift of God.

God invited him and his seed to a new righteousness through the obedience to the sircumsision.

Circumcision did not make anyone righteous. Study the New Testament,

That what he pass on to his children, the blood line and the sircumsision at birth, without their faith and without their will.

This too is false, since the majority of Israel and the majority of Jews were not saved.

We have Jesus Christ righteousness,

If you believe this, then why do you say "Abraham had his own righteousness"?

Looks to me like you are quite confused about the matter of imputed righteousness. Please study Romans 4.

The righteousness of Abraham is not the same as the righteousness we have today as believers In Jesus Christ. 

Today we have the rightneoussness of God the Father, because Jesus Christ has the righteousness of God the Father, and we have Jesus righteousness, that's why we are the Fathers children, through faith in Jesus Christ.

that,s why we are not separated from the Father, because we are the children with the Spirit, born from above, and we are bless with a heavenly inheritance, and a heavenly promish Land.

Abraham did not have the blessings of Jesus Christ, because that blessins came to man with the obedience and the death of Jesus on the Cross. 

The Father in the heavens never made himself known to Abraham.

The Lord God the one who said; I am the one who created all things and man, that,s the one that made himself known to Abraham , who later left all this Glory to be like the children in everything, the Glorious EMMANUEL and enter our world as Jesus, the son of Mary, the Son of God.

Abraham did not have the life of God in him, he still had the Fallen life he inherited from Adam, he was separated from God. Only the Christ will not be separated from God, because he will give his life for us and take us to the Heavenly Father.

So you know what I believe.

For we are as Jesus is.

If we disobey, Jesus remains righteous. 

For Abraham he was told that he must do what God will ask him to do. 

If not God will seek to Kill him. The way he shout to kill Moses who refuse to Sircumsize his children. 

Later on we see that those who refuse to be Sircumsize were cut off, 

And they Can not be included in the people of God , even thought they believe in God. 

  And they  sircumsize the children at birth , when the children don't undersdand anything and do not have the capacity to beleive. 

The statement "imputed" is not the correct one. 

If God had imputed his own rightsneouss to Abraham trough faith in what he Promish to him , that would mean that he remove the separation between the two of them and that he gave him also of his life , without the Christ.

But the God Abraham obey was the Christ to be, and that's why he had to come in the Flesh, because he could not give his life to anyone before.

About the Jews been saved or not this has to do with matters after the Cross, that's another time, forwards hundreds of years and has to do with disobidience to Jesus Christ.

The obedience to the sircumsision it was for the Jews only and that before the Cross, and for the Jews and the servanthood and the prosiliteis. 

The point is that Abraham in his time had to maintain his righteousness not by obeying a set of rules or offering sacrifises for the forgiveness of sins, but by obeying God everytime God asked him to do something.

If not he was dead. He will be without the blessing and protection of God, rejected by God, no matter if he beleive in him and fervently seek him. 

That time faith In God was not the prerequisite to be a child of God. Even later with Law of Moses. 

[Ezra]

The point is that Abraham in his time had to maintain his righteousness not by obeying a set of rules or offering sacrifises for the forgiveness of sins, but by obeying God everytime God asked him to do something.

Sorry, YCF,

You are inventing your own theology, which is never a wise thing to do. I asked you to study Romans chapter 4 but it is clear that you did not do so, therefore you remain in confusion. If you wish to learn the truth that is one thing. But if you wish to promote false teachings, that is something else.  So please note Rom 4:1-3 where "counted" = imputed:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

[Your closest friendnt]

Romans 4:1 What sall we day then, that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh has found?

Paul's is the phycical seed of Abraham, and here is addressing those who are the phycical seed of Abraham and believers in Jesus Christ like him, which are together with him the spiritual seed of Jesus Christ, the seed of the Father in heavens.

4:2, for if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. 

Paul is making reference to the righteousness God counted to Abraham without or before the sircumsision. God did not ask Abraham to do anything that would result in him been righteous in his eyes. And God himself did not do anything, that would have given him the right to give Abraham righteousness .

The factual part is that God made a Promish to Abraham that he will restore his reproductive life in him, and perhaps Abraham could have perceive that he would do the same to his wife Sarah, which ever of the two comes in the picture or perhaps both. Abraham believed that God not only he was willing, but that he had the power to do it. 

God counted his trust to him, as his righteousness, that would mean that nothing will stop God to perform what he Promish to Abraham, even thought Abraham may do something wrong in his eyes. all that before the covenant of the sircumsision.

Note that Abraham did not have the righteousness of God, only that he was a righteous person in the eyes of God, like he was without sin, just like Noah, and Enoh before him.

Note, that Got never Promish to Abraham to give him spiritual life, when he counted as righteous.

Paul referred to another righteousness  that comes by works, and makes a comparison. This the righteousness that came by sircumcision first, the covenant with him and his seed, and separated them through the sircumsision from the rest of the world. Later he separated the seed of Jacob from the rest of the seed of Abraham, through the Righteousness that comes from the Law of Moses, that requires the adherence to a set of rules and rituals.

Before the Law of Moses, there was a righteousness that came upon Abraham and his seed ( that included the servanhood that was joint to Abraham who were not of his seed)

This righteousness came with the sircumsision the mark on the flesh, which mark did not follow the people after they had departed from their flesh, through death.

The righteousness of the Law and that would mean the obedience to the attonment follow them after the their death. Because they had forgiveness of sins, but they did not have the life of God, they were still separated and they did not have a heavenly inheritance. 

4:3, For what sayth the scripture?  Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. This rightsness came to an end with the indroduction of the new rightsness through the sircumsition so it can be upon the seed of Abraham from birth, and not depented on their faith, so everyone of his seed will be included.

We see that in action, when Jacob refuse to have the Lord as his God on the way to his relatives. And in spite of that God counted him as one of his own. 

In the righteousness of God that comes by faith in the finish work of Jesus Christ, we have the obedience and works of rightsneounesh of Jesus Christ, and Jesus you know that as to the flesh was from the seed of Abraham, through David, as it was Promish and not from the seed of servanhood that was joint to the seed of Abraham, strange he had female servanhood blood but not male, as to  include all nations to himself, that means died for all, his brothers and sisters of the human blood who are not of the seed of Abraham.

[Guest]

On 11/16/2015, 1:11:29, bopeep1909 said:

Who is the seed of Abraham?

I think it depends on which covenant you are speaking of.

1. The covenant made in animal blood Gen 15

The firstborn as having a double portion of inheritance. Beginning with the fourth Generation of his seed.

 

2. The covenant made in the blood of circumcision Gen 17

The only born as being a sole heir of all his father has.

3. The covenant made at Sinai Ex

all the 4th Generation of his seed

4. The covenant made in the blood of Christ

All which believe in Christ Jesus.