OakWood Posted November 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted November 27, 2015 17 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said: Just because God knew before I was born that I would choose to follow Jesus and thus knew my destination would be eternity with Him (predestined) does not mean that God chose me and not my neighbour (so to speak). For some reason everyone assumes predestination means your will is taken from you, only the destination for believers and non believers is predestined. Free will is ours because God does not choose who will go where or do what. We choose Jesus or deny Him. God did not know before you were born that you would choose him. God knew you before you were born, which means that he knew your personality. I know my own family very well but I don't know beforehand everything they will do. God probably had a very, very good idea who would choose him and who wouldn't but he didn't know for certain otherwise there would be no free will. It is God's desire that as many as possible be saved. If he already knew before we were born who would be saved and who wouldn't then God's desire has already failed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted November 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted November 27, 2015 18 hours ago, Thallasa said: 27 minutes ago, OakWood said: God did not know before you were born that you would choose him. God knew you before you were born, which means that he knew your personality. I know my own family very well but I don't know beforehand everything they will do. God probably had a very, very good idea who would choose him and who wouldn't but he didn't know for certain otherwise there would be no free will. It is God's desire that as many as possible be saved. If he already knew before we were born who would be saved and who wouldn't then God's desire has already failed him. Oak, you are reducing God to your limited Human level.the Bible says that before you speak God knows what you are going to say. He is Alpha and Omega..literally. He knows beginning from end. He knew what Lucifer was going to do and before the foundation of the earth He set in motion a plan of salvation with Jesus the sacrificial Lamb. Of course He knew what choice I would make..that is why He is Almighty God. I in my finite mind cannot begin to comprehend God but I do accept His infinite mind, wisdom, knowledge etc. He is limitless He IS in the future as well as today. He knew before I was born that Imwould choose Jesus..He knew that before the earth was created because he IS Omega. He knows who will do what BUT He does not nor will He influence our choice but He knew who would respond to the Holy Spirit's guidance to choose Jesus. Everyone has that opportunity..yet some rebel and turn away...free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted November 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,871 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,765 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted November 27, 2015 11 hours ago, JohnD said: Even though God knows the outcome man has true choice. Adam not only did not have to eat the forbidden fruit, the tree of life was also in the Garden to choose eternal life... 7 hours ago, ghtan said: You need to explain how this works, otherwise it is self-contradictory and freewill is illusory. It would be like a school teacher telling a student before the exam, "Answer the questions whichever way you like but I know your final marks anyway." The student knows then that his/her marks are fixed no matter how he/she answers the questions. 6 hours ago, Kan said: A few people here know your future remarks on this because they know the so called philosophy of thinking that you are following. Before anyone engages any further with you, they already know what you will say, which according to your current reckoning, you no longer have any free choice. Which is kind of true, because you can only think in one direction, and it is impossible (for the moment) for you to change that. Is it their fault for knowing what you are going to say, or is it yours for having that philosophy? Brother Kan, brother ghtan, is not a robot, and you are not to referred to him like he is one, and he is program to think only in they way he is program and that you know how he is program and you may predict his next move, and it may be so to some extent as it is truth for any one of us. Brother ghtan has ask us from the very beggining, don't stereotype me, he said; "I have an open mind", and this is one of the Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 2 hours ago, OakWood said: God did not know before you were born that you would choose him. God knew you before you were born, which means that he knew your personality. I know my own family very well but I don't know beforehand everything they will do. God probably had a very, very good idea who would choose him and who wouldn't but he didn't know for certain otherwise there would be no free will. It is God's desire that as many as possible be saved. If he already knew before we were born who would be saved and who wouldn't then God's desire has already failed him. How does foreknowledge deny free will? That makes no sense to me. Knowing what will happen and causing something to turn out a certain are totally different concepts. That God knows you will choose Him doesn't mean he predetermined it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegaman 3.0 Posted November 27, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 57 Topic Count: 1,546 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 10,320 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 12,323 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1951 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Free will is an interesting concept. Can you choose to flap you arms and fly? Yes, you can make that choice, but the results are limited by your nature. Maybe, it is not about what you can do, as a choice, but what you can do, within you nature, or what you will do, within your nature. How likely is one to chose, what one does not understand? Can you chose to be saved? Maybe you do, but you cannot understand it as a natural man. That is a supernatural act, and no matter how hard you huff and puff, you cannot generate the Spirit of God in you, not understand the things of God, apart from Him. If He chooses you, then He draws you and gives you His Spirit, THEN you can choose Him, but, it is too late, He alreay chose you, all you can do is discover you are His and respond. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. You do not accept God, and become born again. God gives you the New Birth, and THEN you can understand, repent and love Him back. God is the initiator, re are reactors. He loves, we love back. He draws, we responds. He opens out eys, then we see. He gives us ears to hear, and we do, why, because we are His sheep. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. Did that passage suggest, that people become His sheep when they beleive, or does it say they beleive if they are His sheep? Does it say they chose eternal life, or, that it was given to them? Does it say they chose to belong to Jesus, or that God gave them to Him? Calvinists don't make this stuff up, the Bible is overflowing with these sorts of remarks, Calvinists (or those who have the view of the reformers as I prefer to call them, or those who share Pauls and Jesus statement) just acknowledge there existance, rather than kling to the idea that people are somehow to overcome their blindness, that heard hearts, the fact that not one of them actually seeks God, undertnds him, we are all His enemies, and that is the marvel of His love, that He chose to save His enemies, you and I. Calvin was not the first, by any means, so I think Calling people Calvinists who agree with what they see in the Bible, gives way to much credit to Calvin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegaman 3.0 Posted November 27, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 57 Topic Count: 1,546 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 10,320 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 12,323 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1951 Share Posted November 27, 2015 3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: How does foreknowledge deny free will? That makes no sense to me. Knowing what will happen and causing something to turn out a certain are totally different concepts. That God knows you will choose Him doesn't mean he predetermined it. I think you are correct there Shiloh, the concepts are separate, but, on the other hand, if God does know what will happen, then it will happen. If He knows, for example, that you will be saved, then by golly, you will be, not matter what you think about it. That being the case, is is hard to deny there is a predestination, since what God sees in his timeless existense, will definetly come to pass in our temporal one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken Posted November 27, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,379 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted November 27, 2015 I leave it in God's most worthy hand. I cannot fathom His understanding, but thank and praise Him for His mercy and grace. I am truly blessed ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted November 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted November 27, 2015 1 hour ago, Littlelambseativy said: Oak, you are reducing God to your limited Human level.the Bible says that before you speak God knows what you are going to say. He is Alpha and Omega..literally. He knows beginning from end. He knew what Lucifer was going to do and before the foundation of the earth He set in motion a plan of salvation with Jesus the sacrificial Lamb. Of course He knew what choice I would make..that is why He is Almighty God. I in my finite mind cannot begin to comprehend God but I do accept His infinite mind, wisdom, knowledge etc. He is limitless He IS in the future as well as today. He knew before I was born that Imwould choose Jesus..He knew that before the earth was created because he IS Omega. He knows who will do what BUT He does not nor will He influence our choice but He knew who would respond to the Holy Spirit's guidance to choose Jesus. Everyone has that opportunity..yet some rebel and turn away...free will. No, I am not reducing God to human level. You are. If God knows everything from beginning to end then his own existence is pointless because he knows exactly what will happen and his existence is boring, there is no love, nothing, just a pre-played script doomed to be acted out for all eternity. God knows what we are going to say before we speak because he can read our hearts and minds, not because it is pre-ordained. If God knew whether you would choose him before you were born then your fate is already sealed and you have no free will. If God can see into the future then you are making the future more powerful than God because the future is some immutable tablet of stone that God has to look into in order to see what will happen. God only knows the future because he can make whatever he wants happen, not because it is pre-ordained. Nothing and nobody is more powerful than God and nothing can stop his will from occurring. God determines the future - nothing is powerful enough to stop him from doing whatever he wishes. Nothing is pre-ordained, there are just God's plans that he has already decided and he will carry out these plans with nothing to stop him. If things are pre-ordained then that would mean that even God cannot change his mind because he too would be imprisoned by destiny. God knows what the future will be because he has the power to make it happen as he wishes, not because an unchangeable script is already in place. I dare say that God has a pretty good guess who is already saved and who isn't because he knows everything about us, our behaviour is so predictable, but if he knew for certain then there would be no point in him giving us the gospel or even in trying to reach out to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted November 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted November 27, 2015 17 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: How does foreknowledge deny free will? That makes no sense to me. Knowing what will happen and causing something to turn out a certain are totally different concepts. That God knows you will choose Him doesn't mean he predetermined it. If he didn't predetermine it then who or what did? You are making something else more powerful than God and nothing is more powerful than God! The mere concept of predetermination suggests that there is something there....... but I believe that there is no pre-determination only God's will to make something happen. Look, let me put it this way.... I know that in a few hours time I am going to go to work to start a night shift. How do I know? Because the shift is there in place for me and I will make it happen. Nothing will stop me. I'm have the power and free will to make it happen. I haven't seen into the future, I just know that it will happen. Of course, in reality.... I don't know for certain that it will happen because I am not all powerful.... I could get hit by a car on the way to work, I might have a cardiac arrest, I may trip and fall down the stairs. God is all powerful, nothing can stop him. There are no unforeseen circumstances that have the power to thwart his will. Therefore if God says that something will happen, it will definitely happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegaman 3.0 Posted November 27, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 57 Topic Count: 1,546 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 10,320 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 12,323 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1951 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I don't think it is the understanding of most who beleive in predestination, that every single thing is predestined. If that were the case, there would be no reason to ever pray, or to evangelize, that is not quite what we are saying, lol. Regarding salvation though, we do not choose that apart from God, He chooses us, based or reasons, or maybe even no reason, that He does not reveal. We are not privy to it, and neither is it our business to know. It is not however true, that we contribute nothing to our salavation, we contribute sin. 24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. (2 Tim) How do people repent? Even that, comes from God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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