DID YOU CHOOSE GOD ! ,OR DID HE ALREADY CHOOSED YOU ?

[ghtan]

13 minutes ago, Kan said:

I reason that if the outcome is fixed then so must anything be that is towards that outcome. That doesn't sound like a natural universe.

I don't believe in a fixed or controlled universe, but rather in a free one.

The confusion some people have, is when they think that if God knows an outcome, somehow it is fixed, and therefor anything towards it...must also be fixed, no?

 

I think what "some people" think is that if God FOREknows an outcome, it is fixed. Doesn't that stand to reason? If an outcome differs from what God foreknows, then he must have got it wrong. Surely, God does not get things wrong. 

That said, I am not suggesting God does not fix anything. Of course, he does. For example, he has decided that Jesus will return one day. But he does not have to fix everything associated with that return, e.g. timing.

[Kan]

21 minutes ago, ghtan said:

I think what "some people" think is that if God FOREknows an outcome, it is fixed. Doesn't that stand to reason? If an outcome differs from what God foreknows, then he must have got it wrong. Surely, God does not get things wrong. 

That said, I am not suggesting God does not fix anything. Of course, he does. For example, he has decided that Jesus will return one day. But he does not have to fix everything associated with that return, e.g. timing.

Yes, if God foreknows an outcome then it is fixed, as far as we are concerned. We can't do anything about it. And possibly, He would not have to do anything about it either, because it is set to happen by natural law or whatever. 

Perhaps this could be discussed by an example in Bible history or a prophecy?

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, OakWood said:

If you've read what I have written, I made it very clear that God does not break his promises. Although he is capable of changing his mind it doesn't mean to say that he does. God never lies, it is not in his nature to do so. Having the ability to change ones' mind is not the same as being a promise-breaker. I have the ability to change my mind about a lot of things, it doesn't mean to say that I tell lies or fail to keep my word. I can change my mind about what clothes I wear tomorrow or what I want to eat, but it doesn't mean to say that I will change my mind when I have made an agreement with somebody.

Believe me I have thought it through and unlike you I have not reduced God to a robot that is incapable of being flexible when it comes to making decisions. You have actually claimed that it is impossible for God to change his mind. You are the one putting limitations on God, not I.

And if you believe that God does not regret any decisions that he ever made then try reading Genesis 6:6

Again, how can an all-knowing God who is not capable of error say, "Oops, that doesn't work, I will have to try something else?"  The only reason God would have to change his mind is if he made a bad or erroneous decision.    If you know everything, and are incapable of error, then you don't do things you have change your mind about later.

It says that God was sorry He made man in Gen. 6:6, but that doesn't mean that God changed his mind.   Man's sin didn't take God by surprise and he already had a plan in place to deal with it.   He wasn't up there in heaven saying, "Why did I make man?  What was I thinking?"  God would have to break his promises in order to change his mind.   That is exactly what would have happened if God had destroyed Israel in the wilderness and started over with Moses.   He would have violated his promises.

God doesn't have to be "flexible" when making decisions and if he flexible about that, it is not a good thing for us.   We don't want God second guessing his decisions about our eternal future.   We don't want any flexibility in that at all.    And that doesn't make Him a robot.   It makes him faithful; it makes him trustworthy and it means that we anchor our lives to His word.  

I am not putting limitations God.    I have already proven that there are limitations on God and there are things He cannot do.   The limitations are there and it wasn't me to put them there.   The idea that God can change his mind is based on a human view that can't conceive of God being able to operate outside of the limitations of human understanding of who he is and how he operates.    It is a failure to hermeneutically understand when an anthropomorphism is in play when it says that God "changed his mind."

[Kan]

It's interesting that despite knowing all, that God will communicate as if He doesn't know everything. The question is, when He does that, is He pretending or is He genuinely putting Himself in someone else's shoes?

I believe He is genuine, and doesn't mind condescending to the limitations, of say humanity, at all.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, ghtan said:

If you read the commentaries on Philippians, you will find that evangelical scholars agree that 2:5-11 does not mean Jesus gave up any of his divine attributes. (Omniscience is a divine attribute.) What he gave up was his heavenly glory - the KJV puts it well as "he made himself of no reputation" - by coming down to earth and born as a humble human.

If you really want another verse that suggests God has not fixed the date of Jesus' return, there is indeed one. But it is no point giving it to you since it is obvious that your mind is fixed on the matter. Anyway, I'd bet you cannot find a verse that says the date of Jesus' return IS fixed...

I never said he gave up any of his attributes.  I said he gave up divine prerogatives.   Do you understand the difference.   Jesus did not give up anything that makes him God.  Jesus gave the up the independent use of those divine attributes while on earth.     Jesus made himself  a servant, he became obedient to death, etc.   Jesus voluntarily and temporarily took upon himself, humanity and the limitations that come with it.   He was fully God and fully human, but he was not tainted with mankind's sin.  He was the kind of sinless human Adam was, before the fall.

You have provided NOTHING that says that God has not fixed the date of Jesus return, in the first place, so providing another verse is really a nonstarter.    Matt. 24:36 doesn't mean that there is no fixed date for the return of Jesus.    What it means is that,  from our vantage, point, it will be unexpected.   It will catch people unware, but that doesn't mean it isn't fixed date from God's vantage point.

So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Act 1:6-8)

So yes, the end time events, including the second coming are fixed dates from God's perspective.

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, Kan said:

It's interesting that despite knowing all, that God will communicate as if He doesn't know everything. The question is, when He does that, is He pretending or is He genuinely putting Himself in someone else's shoes?

I believe He is genuine, and doesn't mind condescending to the limitations, of say humanity, at all.

God communicates with us in terms we can relate to.   Remember when God came down and visited with Abraham and said that he was going to Sodom to see if they were as really sinful as he had heard from Heaven?

Then the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know."(Gen 18:20-21)

Do you think God didn't already know?  Did God have to come down to earth to actually know for sure?   An all-knowing God didn't know how bad Sodom was??   God was illustrating the point that he didn't judge rashly.   He didn't just rain down fire from heaven automatically and he gave Abraham the blessing of being able to intercede for Sodom.

More was at play.   God was not literally in the dark about what happening.   But he communicated with Abraham in a way that allowed Abraham to be participant in what He was doing.

The same is true with Moses in the wilderness.   God suggested that he might destroy Israel and start over with Moses, not because God had actually planned that, but to elicit a righteous response from Moses, who immediately interceded for Israel that God not actually do what He suggested to do.   God had no intention of destroying Israel, so he never literally changed his mind.   He elicited the same righteous response from Moses that he did from Abraham.  If anything he was training Moses to be a better leader.

[ghtan]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

I never said he gave up any of his attributes.  I said he gave up divine prerogatives.   Do you understand the difference.   Jesus did not give up anything that makes him God.  Jesus gave the up the independent use of those divine attributes while on earth.     Jesus made himself  a servant, he became obedient to death, etc.   Jesus voluntarily and temporarily took upon himself, humanity and the limitations that come with it.   He was fully God and fully human, but he was not tainted with mankind's sin.  He was the kind of sinless human Adam was, before the fall.

You have provided NOTHING that says that God has not fixed the date of Jesus return, in the first place, so providing another verse is really a nonstarter.    Matt. 24:36 doesn't mean that there is no fixed date for the return of Jesus.    What it means is that,  from our vantage, point, it will be unexpected.   It will catch people unware, but that doesn't mean it isn't fixed date from God's vantage point.

So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Act 1:6-8)

So yes, the end time events, including the second coming are fixed dates from God's perspective.

Read Acts 1:7 in the KJV and you will see that the word for 'fixed' is actually 'placed' or 'put'. Jesus was saying that the date of his return is something PUT under God's authority/power. Therefore, what Jesus meant was: (I paraphrase) "That is placed under God's jurisdiction, so mind your own business." It makes better sense of his reply because, why should God having fixed a date be a reason not to tell it to the disciples? That is why they were asking him! In the past, God gave his people dates. E.g. Jeremiah that Judah would be exiled in Babylon for 70 years. So he has demonstrated that he has no problems revealing dates to his people IF HE HAS SET THEM.

By the way, I remember now that I pointed out to you that Jesus said "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Crucially, the context there is about truth and THE FUTURE (16:13). So Jesus claimed to know everything God knew. How then did he not know the date of his return if it had been fixed?

What do you mean by an "independent use" of his divine attribute? Do you mean that every time he wants to do a miracle, read someone's mind, etc., he has to ask the Father first? That would make him no better than a man! It is what we humans do when we ask God in prayer for something. You are effectively saying that Jesus became fully man zero God!

 

 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

6 minutes ago, ghtan said:

Read Acts 1:7 in the KJV and you will see that the word for 'fixed' is actually 'placed' or 'put'. Jesus was saying that the date of his return is something PUT under God's authority/power. Therefore, what Jesus meant was: (I paraphrase) "That is placed under God's jurisdiction, so mind your own business." It makes better sense of his reply because, why should God having fixed a date be a reason not to tell it to the disciples? That is why they were asking him! In the past, God gave his people dates. E.g. Jeremiah that Judah would be exiled in Babylon for 70 years. So he has demonstrated that he has no problems revealing dates to his people IF HE HAS SET THEM.

 

No, the word is actually used in that context to mean, "set" or fixed."   It was not for them to know.   Jesus did not say that there was no set time.  All he said was that it was not for them to know.   There is a set time because God always operates in the fullness of time.  Jesus was born at the exact time he was supposed to be born.   He died at the exact moment he intended to die.  A plain reading of the text in any translation indicates a set time that God has kept to himself.

Quote

By the way, I remember now that I pointed out to you that Jesus said "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Crucially, the context there is about truth and THE FUTURE (16:13). So Jesus claimed to know everything God knew. How then did he not know the date of his return if it had been fixed?

Jesus  did not claim to know everything God knew.   That it isn't revealed to him as to the date of his return, doesn't mean it isn't fixed.  That information was simply not revealed to Jesus at that time.  It doesn't mean he doesn't know at this time.   He was operating with some limitations and as I said, he was modeling for us how to depend on God, even when we don't have all of the information.    Just as Jesus didn't fixate on the date of his return, neither should we.  

What do you mean by an "independent use" of his divine attribute? Do you mean that every time he wants to do a miracle, read someone's mind, etc., he has to ask the Father first? That would make him no better than a man! It is what we humans do when we ask God in prayer for something. You are effectively saying that Jesus became fully man zero God!

Quote

What do you mean by an "independent use" of his divine attribute? Do you mean that every time he wants to do a miracle, read someone's mind, etc., he has to ask the Father first? That would make him no better than a man! It is what we humans do when we ask God in prayer for something. You are effectively saying that Jesus became fully man zero God!

Paul states in Phil. 2 that Jesus did not view his equality with God something to exploit to his own advantage.   Jesus voluntarily took on temporary limitations and one of those is that Jesus became a servant.  Servants do what they are told.   They don't operate independently.   Jesus, with regard to his first coming in Isaiah is in four separate passages referred to as God's servant. 

Jesus gave up, for the duration of his earthly ministry, the independent use of his attributes/authority.  

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. (Joh 5:19-20)

Jesus was fully human, fully God and fully submitted to the Father.   He did and said that the Father told him to do and say.  Jesus was fully God, but in many places we see Jesus operating in His humanity so that He could serve as a righteous model that we can emulate.   If Jesus did everything in His deity, we could not emulate Him.

[ghtan]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

No, the word is actually used in that context to mean, "set" or fixed."   It was not for them to know.   Jesus did not say that there was no set time.  All he said was that it was not for them to know.   There is a set time because God always operates in the fullness of time.  Jesus was born at the exact time he was supposed to be born.   He died at the exact moment he intended to die.  A plain reading of the text in any translation indicates a set time that God has kept to himself.

 

Any translation? NKJV: "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." This is one of the most literal translations. The greek word is tithemi, which Strong's says generally means "to place." Check it out for yourself. 

[ghtan]

5 hours ago, Kan said:

Yes, if God foreknows an outcome then it is fixed, as far as we are concerned. We can't do anything about it. And possibly, He would not have to do anything about it either, because it is set to happen by natural law or whatever. 

Perhaps this could be discussed by an example in Bible history or a prophecy?

OK by me. I leave you to decide the example you want to discuss.