The daughter of Babylon

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

Your witnesses are based on tradition, its the tradition that is at question, unless the tradition can be shown to be valid, otherwise your witnesses are giving testimony to hearsay. But yes I have witnesses, Paul Peter luke and Mark.

Which witnesses, of course, you do not quote to prove your statement.

One wee problem with Peter going to the city of Mesopotamian Babylon is, that city did not exist in the time of Peter's Apostleship:

"Another suggestion, of course, is that Peter's Babylon is that of Mesopotamia. While there is no evidence or tradition that Peter ever went east to Babylon, the question cannot be settled so easily. The issue here that must be settled is whether or not that Mesopotamian Babylon even existed in the second half of the first century, A.D. If it can be shown that it did not stand in the days of the apostles, then of course this cannot be Peter's Babylon. In 309 B.C. Antigonis I of Macedonia leveled Babylon. Later, in 275 B.C., Antiochus I took away the remaining civilian population and deported them to other cities. Pausanias, a Greek writer and geographer of the Roman period, said that there was absolutely nothing within the walls of Babylon. The city was later re-founded by Antiochus Epiphanes around 160 B.C., and it was later captured by the Parthians in 127 B.C. In the 30's B.C. Hercanus II was in residence there for a while and from him it is known that there was not much to the city at that time. The Roman geographer, Strabo, writing about the time of Christ said "the great city Babylon has become a wilderness." Evidently, the Euphrates River dried up during the time of the Parthians; after that, Babylon was no more (see Jeremiah 51:41-43). From Strabo to Trajan there is no mention of the city extant. Trajan (the Roman Emperor), eager to visit the infamous Babylon, was disappointed when he arrived at the site; it was only a wasted pile of rubble. Add to this observation that there is absolutely no tradition that Peter ever went to Babylon and that there was never a strong Mesopotamian church, it seems rather obvious that the Babylon of 1 Peter 5:13 can not be Babylon of Mesopotamia, the city of the exile."

Whereas, as I have stated earlier, there is much evidence to support the assumption that Rome is the Babylon to which Peter referred:

"Three reasons support th[e] choice [of Rome]. The first is found in 1 Peter 5:13 itself; Peter speaks of his associate, Marcus — no one could ask for a more Roman name. Although this in itself in not necessarily determinative, it does give the impression that Peter is in a Roman area. Next, it is common in ancient Jewish writings to find Rome designated Babylon. This is what John does in Revelation chapter seventeen, and possiblye chapter eighteen. Rome had been the source of great grief to the Jewish people, and the term Babylon was most fitting. The figure was so common to them that it would have been easily understood to be Rome. The last reason for identifying Peter's Babylon with Rome is the overwhelming amount of ancient tradition which states that he died in Rome. Clement of Rome (d A.D. 97) wrote that Peter and Paul were martyred together at Rome. (Lest the critics object that this tradition was begun by the Roman church to bolster their position, notice that this statement came from a man who died probably before the apostle John – long before "Roman Catholicism.") Tertullian, writing about A.D. 200 said the same. Eusebius, the fourth century church historian, said the same as well, adding that Peter's grave was in the Vatican (whether or not this is true may be debated, but he could not have been motivated by any "catholic" sentiment, for the Vatican was nothing then). Eusebius cites as his authority Caaius, a Roman writer of the early third century, who said that Peter was buried in a shaft grave in Rome. ...by at least A.D. 170 all Christian burials were in the catacombs, not individual graves. If Caius, or anyone else of his time, had invented the story, he would have said that Peter was buried in the catacombs, for people of his era knew virtually nothing of earlier burial customs."

quotes from http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/miscstudies/peterrome.htm

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, Ezra said:

It can't be about ancient Rome since the judgement of Mystery Babylon and Babylon is at the end of the Great Tribulation which is yet future.  The Great Tribulation is unique according to Christ -- something which has never happened and will never happen again. And it is just before the Second Coming of Christ.

I fail to see  your logic here. The Angel told John,

Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

-- which could only refer to Rome. Rome has never ceased to exist from that time to the present, and has never ceased to be a center of a Mystery religion, even though that religion has metamorphosized over the centuries to suit the times. The pre-Catholic title Pontifex maximus has remained throughout. The city Rome has remained throughout; and had been in John's day, and also throughout the centuries to follow, a city that has been responsible for shedding "the blood of prophets and saints." Rev. 18:24

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I fail to see  your logic here. The Angel told John,

Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 17 is a vision of the judgement of Mystery Babylon after the Great Tribulation. Rome has existed since ancient times, but the judgement is yet future.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

Revelation 17 is a vision of the judgement of Mystery Babylon after the Great Tribulation. Rome has existed since ancient times, but the judgement is yet future.

True: the judgment of Rome and its mystery religion is yet future.

Some of Rev. 17 describes the state of Rome in John's day, and some of it describes the End Time judgment of that city.

Also, Mystery is a noun, not an adjective: "And on her forehead a name was written, (a) Mystery, Babylon the Great..."

[FresnoJoe]

On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2015‎ ‎9‎:‎59‎:‎27‎, simplejeff said:

God also warns against 'touching the apple of His eye'  ((Not referring to apples nor eyes))

yet God also says in Revelation He gives power to the enemy to take the lives of His people....

~

And Yet

Then I will return to my place until they admit their guilt and turn to me. For as soon as trouble comes, they will earnestly search for me." Hosea 5:15 (New Living Translation)

He Comes

The LORD will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the heavens will tremble. But the LORD will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel. Joel 3:16 (New International Version)

[Sister]

Hi William

I will have a look into this Darius King of Persia, the other Darius king, as I didn't realise and even quoted it. 

[RevelationWriter]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2015‎ ‎4‎:‎38‎:‎50‎, RevelationWriter said:

- There is a Prophetic story from God's Prophet Isaiah 47 of the virgin daughter of Babylon saying her Redeemer is The Lord of Hosts.

God said He would take away her Throne as the lady of kingdoms

and give her the Millstone of slavery being the daughter of Babylon. - Is.47:2 Someday God will take away her Millstone of slavery to Babylon. - Rev.18:21

She'll proclaim to be no Widow. - Is.7:8

As her claim to be Queen w/a Throne, not being a Widow in the Prophecy of Rev.18:7

- Always remember,

The Woman John saw go into the wilderness. - Rev.12

Is The Woman John went into the wilderness to see the judgment of. - Rev.17

[unworthydude]

On 11/26/2015 at 8:18 AM, *Zion* said:

Honest question.  Some say that it's the Catholic Church, some say it's Islam.  It could be an entirely different entity.  What do people think?

I believe that Mystery Babylon = Jerusalem. Anybody else here see it? Here are some arguments...

 

1. Jerusalem kills prophets.

-Rev 18:24  And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth."

-Luk_13:33  Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.'

2. Jerusalem is called the “Great City” in Rev 11:8. Babylon in called the “Great City” in 17:18.

-Rev 11:8  and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

-Rev 16:19  The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

     3. The city where "All who were slain on the earth" are.

-Rev 18:24  And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth."

 -Mat 23:35  so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah...

 

God bless you brothers and sisters!

Edited January 8, 2016 by unworthydude

[MorningGlory]

23 minutes ago, unworthydude said:

I believe that Mystery Babylon = Jerusalem. Anybody else here see it? Here are some arguments...

 

1. Jerusalem kills prophets.

-Rev 18:24  And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth."

-Luk_13:33  Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.'

2. Jerusalem is called the “Great City” in Rev 11:8. Babylon in called the “Great City” in 17:18.

-Rev 11:8  and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

-Rev 16:19  The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

     3. The city where "All who were slain on the earth" are.

-Rev 18:24  And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth."

 -Mat 23:35  so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah...

 

God bless you brothers and sisters!

Well, number two makes a strong case for Jerusalem.  I am still undecided as to what I believe about this though.  Btw, why do you call yourself 'unworthydude'? 

[unworthydude]

57 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

Well, number two makes a strong case for Jerusalem.  I am still undecided as to what I believe about this though.  Btw, why do you call yourself 'unworthydude'? 

Start by reading Ezek 16 and you'll understand why Jerusalem is the whore. The major and minor prophets all reveal God's broken heart and His great plan to reconcile with Israel (e.g., your signature).  His people rejected Him for other lovers. In the end, He is going to turn their lovers against them.  You'll weep like I did when you understand God's rejection. He sorrows and grieves.

Why unworthy?

Luk_17:10  So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"

Edited January 8, 2016 by unworthydude