Once Saved , Always Saved ?

[Your closest friendnt]

12 minutes ago, Kan said:

OSAS suggests - OLAL - once lost always lost. Not real sensible inventions.

 

What do you suggest brother Kan, with this statment, this is the first time that I have come across to a statment like that. 

What is the reasoning that may support this kind of statment? 

[Kan]

18 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

What do you suggest brother Kan, with this statment, this is the first time that I have come across to a statment like that. 

What is the reasoning that may support this kind of statment? 

You would have heard it in this thread - over and over again - that if a person falls from grace, and abandons God, then according to OSAS, they were not saved to begin with, so they must have been lost in the first place and therefor could never be saved. That's once lost always lost, isn't it?

(OSAS is as good as the weird doctrine of predestination, as it is falsely applied. True predestination is what God has ordained for us to be saved, not what result will come from that offer.)

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Kan said:

You would have heard it in this thread - over and over again - that if a person falls from grace, and abandons God, then according to OSAS, they were not saved to begin with, so they must have been lost in the first place and therefor could never be saved. That's once lost always lost, isn't it?

(OSAS is as good as the weird doctrine of predestination, as it is falsely applied. True predestination is what God has ordained for us to be saved, not what result will come from that offer.)

How would a person be lost and thus never be able to be saved??   There is no such thing as being lost and unable to be saved.

Predestination has the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.   That's not OSAS/eternal security.  

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, gdemoss said:

I cannot see OSAS as truth because of Heb 6.  I have heard various arguments that seek to make Heb 6 fit inside the OSAS doctrine that fall short of the mark and do not truly seem to represent the text.

I am with Shiloh that when a person is saved there is a definitive change in the person.  They are permanently altered and a new creation in Christ Jesus.  There is always a marked difference in the individual who has come to a knowledge of the truth and embraced Christ as the only hope of salvation from eternal death and damnation.  There is that which is in me that desires nothing but to serve Christ. 

That said, as I have progressed in my walk with Christ and have partaken of more and more of the things listed in Hebrews 6, I am acutely aware of the warning associated with falling away after having become a partaker of such things. 

No, to me the text clearly states that there are grave consequences that come from turning away from Christ after crossing a certain point in your walk with Him.

My question for you Shiloh is what doctrines are at stake if someone can actually fall away unto eternal damnation after being saved? 

When Paul suggest that our flesh with our desires wars agains the Spirit, it also explains that the Spirit is not only an external influence, but also an influence from within, because he is referring to those who have believed in Jesus as the savior. 

And also to those who have not believed, having a persuading influence to bring them to the faith. 

What is the list of requirements you have mention in your post to have Jesus as ones Savior. 

Because the Angels sang today the Savior is Born. 

If you could number your list, then we will know when Jesus is someones Savior for sure, and with-ought any doubt. 

And I must also add, what is the meaning of "Savior", to your understanding. 

Are the Angels suggesting two thousand years ago, that they or we, were lost, and where for that matter, were we lost? 

And what is the place that we should be, as to say that we are not lost now?

 Our mind and our reasoning also wars again the Spirit, if not why then the scripture says "Renew your minds", check out your perception, Jesus is reasoning with us. 

[Your closest friendnt]

11 minutes ago, Kan said:

You would have heard it in this thread - over and over again - that if a person falls from grace, and abandons God, then according to OSAS, they were not saved to begin with, so they must have been lost in the first place and therefor could never be saved. That's once lost always lost, isn't it?

(OSAS is as good as the weird doctrine of predestination, as it is falsely applied. True predestination is what God has ordained for us to be saved, not what result will come from that offer.)

Your second paragraph Is a look into God's propose and mind, and not a judging manipulation of scripture.

Exellent!!!  (if I may say that).

With the first paragraph I must asks; "what falling from Grace", and "abandoning God", means or how can that happen? 

And how can someone be in right standing with Grace? 

What is Grace within the contex of that statment?

The abandoning God you have to do a lot of explaining. Is God abandoning someone, and how and when? 

[ghtan]

14 hours ago, gdemoss said:

Thank you Shiloh for your explanation of the text as you understand it.

As I read it I do not hear that.  What I hear is a set of qualifiers for what level a person must achieve in their growth before the danger of permanent loss of salvation becomes possible.  And that Paul doesn't believe they have acheived that and so he isn't wasting time trying to bring them farther along past the basics unto full age.

The position I currently hold supposes that there is a level of understanding that one can acheive while growing as a Christian that would put them in a position akin to the devil and his angels should they fall away.  This veiw does not allow for unconditional eternal security but it doesn't make salvation some flimsy reed that I could somehow easily throw away either.  The odds of anyone being drawn away by the Devil to a state of condemnation after having partaken of all the qualifiers in Hebrews six is slim to none.

I understand that you place a lot of emphasis on word studies and usage and that you will not be swayed in the least by my arguments but I enjoy trying to understand your reasoning to see why you are locked into your position.  Usually I find that if you were to accept something that is being presented as true that it would violate some essential doctrine to your understanding of God and therefore cannot be accepted.  

Thank you again for taking the time to share with me the veiws you hold.  

If once saved always saved, one must wonder why NT writers like that of Hebrews tried so hard to persuade their readers not to fall away. (Btw, parapipto appears only in here in the NT, so one wonders how others can say it is not the word used for apostasy. What then IS the word used for apostasy?) After all, if the readers are saved, they will never be lost. Better to use the time to do more evangelism instead. Hebrews is a long letter and would have taken a long time to write. As they say, actions speak louder than words. So the actions of the NT writers in penning those letters indicate they believed salvation can be lost. And we can testify to it because we see it happening to people around us.

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, ghtan said:

If once saved always saved, one must wonder why NT writers like that of Hebrews tried so hard to persuade their readers not to fall away.

That assumes that all of the readers were actually believers.  The writers of Hebrews was also writing to those who leaned toward a genuine faith, but were tempted, after they heard the truth, to return back to the OT Temple system.   There were people among his readership who might have been at different places in their life, some were new believers, others might be at a place where they are leaning toward faith in Christ but had not yet made a solid commitment.  Hebrews was not written to the Gentile believers, necessarily.  It was written to Jews, some who were believers and some who were not. 

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 (Btw, parapipto appears only in here in the NT, so one wonders how others can say it is not the word used for apostasy. What then IS the word used for apostasy?)

Well the word for apostasy is apostasia.   But, if the writer of Hebrews 6 wanted to speak of falling away in that sense, the word he should have used is aphistemi, which is synonymous with apostasia.  But he did not use that word because his accusation was not that they were apostates.   His complaint is that they were stagnate and immature, spiritually.  So peripitos is the correct word to use, as it doesn't mean "apostasy."

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After all, if the readers are saved, they will never be lost.

That is true. They will never be lost.   But the warning in Heb. 6 isn't about falling way into apostasy.

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Hebrews is a long letter and would have taken a long time to write. As they say, actions speak louder than words. So the actions of the NT writers in penning those letters indicate they believed salvation can be lost.

Wow, that argument makes absolutely no sense.   How does the act of penning a letter, even a long indicate that they believed that salvation could be lost???   That was never the purpose in any of Paul's letters.   Many of his letters were addressed to churches giving them practical instructions and encouragement.  Sorry, but your comment really doesn't bear up when we examine the actual purposes given in Paul's letters, or any of the other epistles.

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And we can testify to it because we see it happening to people around us.

No, we don't.  You have not provided ONE solid reason to assume that.

[Ezra]

58 minutes ago, ghtan said:

If once saved always saved, one must wonder why NT writers like that of Hebrews tried so hard to persuade their readers not to fall away. 

The warnings in Hebrews are warnings. But Paul was persuaded that those who were being addressed were saved (Heb 6:9-12).  The reason for this letter is that there was a very great danger that Hebrew believers would return to Moses and the Old Covenant after having heard the Gospel and received Christ.  This issue was already a problem in the churches of Galatia, and Hebrew Christians had to be reminded again and again that circumcision availeth nothing, and that none could be justified by the works of the law.

Today, the ones who are NOT genuine Christians become apostates by adopting theological liberalism and other unscriptural doctrines. These are professing Christians. But genuine Christians will be convicted and also led into all truth. The eternal security of the believer rests upon the New Birth and the indwelling Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is not given to those who merit salvation, since none merit salvation.

[SINNERSAVED]

6 minutes ago, Ezra said:

The warnings in Hebrews are warnings. But Paul was persuaded that those who were being addressed were saved (Heb 6:9-12).  The reason for this letter is that there was a very great danger that Hebrew believers would return to Moses and the Old Covenant after having heard the Gospel and received Christ.  This issue was already a problem in the churches of Galatia, and Hebrew Christians had to be reminded again and again that circumcision availeth nothing, and that none could be justified by the works of the law.

Today, the ones who are NOT genuine Christians become apostates by adopting theological liberalism and other unscriptural doctrines. These are professing Christians. But genuine Christians will be convicted and also led into all truth. The eternal security of the believer rests upon the New Birth and the indwelling Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is not given to those who merit salvation, since none merit salvation.

I am a believer of what you are saying Ezra, there is way too many Christian atheist , running around acting like true believers, for Jesus said you will know them by there fruits, this is easy to spot , and we see many with bad fruit, and so it is really hard, to even believe in them if they are rebelling against the simply aspects of godliness,

many are saying they are Christians, but yet , you see that they are ,really caught up in the world and they have not really opened there bibles,

so these are labels,and titles they want to call them selves, and are not genuine believers, but the world looks to them and judges us as to our faults and what we do,

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I am a believer of what you are saying Ezra, there is way too many Christian atheist , running around acting like true believers, for Jesus said you will know them by there fruits, this is easy to spot , and we see many with bad fruit, and so it is really hard, to even believe in them if they are rebelling against the simply aspects of godliness,

many are saying they are Christians, but yet , you see that they are ,really caught up in the world and they have not really opened there bibles,

so these are labels,and titles they want to call them selves, and are not genuine believers, but the world looks to them and judges us as to our faults and what we do,

The scripture does say that you will know them by their fruits, but does not list the kinds of fruits someone may expect to have, it would be fruits of charity, but lacking in fruits of evangelism, in a confrontational field, it is not fair to demant the whole package from someone, instand of been thankful for what they are offering. 

Also there are different versions of diception offered together with the above scripture. Those with the so called fruit they may not be associated having a sound doctrine, and or a sound mind, or having pure intentions and or motives.

This is the bate offered by most cults, "good works of charity and a supportive inviromen to attract new recruits. 

Also many they may use "the good fruit", as a front to deceived others., and hide a very strange personality. 

Also the "good fruit" may be use as as diception tool by the Anti-Christ,  convincing many that they only need to believe in God and have "the good fruit of charity", and are accepted by God that way, without faith in Jesus Christ the Savior. 

From this exable, you may deduce that is better for someone to have faith in Jesus Christ the Savior, and lack in abadance of good works, than to have the abadance of good works, and perhaps faith in God, but not faith in Jesus Christ who died for us to give us the forgivness of sins, the free gift of eternal life, and his righteousness. 

In Jesus Christ we are not contemn in the eternal lake of fire, but rather we are saved from it.