The Time of Testing

[angels4u]

24 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 3:10 “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you ek/out of the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

First point: this promise is only given to the Philadelphia Church; not to the Laodicean Church. It therefore may be conditional, applying to some but not others.

Second point: the promise is only to be "kept" (literally, guarded/watched over/preserved) out of the trial. That does not by definition mean being removed from the earth. For example, we find in Rev. 12 that the Woman is

12:14 ...given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, apo/away from the presence of the serpent. ... 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

So we see that the woman is being kept/guarded/preserved while still on earth. This woman has a crown of 12 stars upon her head, which represent heavenly = apostolic authority, not Israelite = earthly authority. Her offspring

12:17 ...have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So this cannot be unbelieving Israel: these are believers in Jesus.

In sum, therefore, there is scriptural witness that the Church is well able to be protected upon earth during the depredations of Satan without being taken into heaven.

 

 

14 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

I just had a thought, and this is just asking ? if the dragon represents satan, ? and he opened his mouth and spewed out a flood and the earth opened up to help the women which we know represents Gods people,

then as in Daniel said the beast comes from the sea, meaning many people  ? not a real sea.   then could the flood that comes out of the mouth of the dragon, ,could it mean something other then a real flood, could this flood be symbolic to armies, or soldiers coming, something like that, I don't really see  a actual flood, I believe this could be symbolic, but this is just  a thought, any one got a idea on this, is it possible?

Nobody knows for sure which direction this will go, we are sure that the Triblulation is coming  a lot of people face already persecution. Because I know I'm safe in Jesus whenever He plans to redeem us ,He knows best. I do believe actually that the woman is Israel and she will hide for 3 1/2 years in the wilderness (Petra.

Also Math. 24 is meant for Israel but it will effect the whole world..amen come Lord Jesus come..

[SINNERSAVED]

19 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Funny how different understandings can be.

On Rev. 3:10

Now let me make it clear with someone who might think that I am trying to deceive you, that I am not saying that Revelation 3:10 cannot be translated to say what many in this thread are saying that it means, namely that it means believers will be removed from the hour of testing to come.

At the same time I think if we want to be intellectually honest, we probably should note some things in the Greek that are not obvious in every English translation. Notice for example that the verb in this passage, tereo, is translated by many versions as "keep" and then coupled with the preposition ek, it is rendered as "keep from". The definition of the verb tereo, from Strong's dictionary, says of it:

tereo - to keep

tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

Do you see that this verb can (or does) mean to guard or to keep intact or to preserve etc.? It is not said there that removal is in view, preservation is.

Now regarding the preposition ek:

Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, 17th impression, pg. 149 says of ek:

In Matthew 17:9 it is used of descending from a mountain not out of; we are not to suppose that they had been in a cave; (Dr. a T Robertson grammar of the Greek New Testament). In first Thessalonians 1:10 the question of whether ek here means out of the midst of or away from is to be determined by some statement of Scripture where the subject is specifically mentioned. This is provided in 5:9, the context of which makes clear that believers are to be delivered from, not out of, the divine wrath to be executed on the nations at the end of the present age.

So according to vines, we can see that this preposition is not necessarily having to mean out of, again removal is not necessarily in view. In fact to that point, vines states emphatically that in a similar context in first Thessalonians that ek is used to refer to a deliverance from divine wrath but not out of it.

The implication here is that it is possible that Revelation 3:10 is implying that believers will be preserved, yet not necesarrily removed in this hour of testing.

Additionally Revelation 3:10 does not specify that this testing is the tribulation.

I would also like to point out that tribulation is something that happens, it is trouble, it is a pressure on those who endure it. Now what do I mean by this? What I mean to say is that tribulation is not a period of time it is something that happens to people with in a period of time.

Now someone might say: "but Omegaman, it does say the hour of testing", so that does imply a period of time". That seems fair enough. However, as I said the tribulation is not a time. It is something that happens within a space of time, like all things that happen do. All I see there is that this testing is limited in time it is not indefinite.

This of course corresponds perfectly with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:

21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Of course, if the "elect" means the Jews of Jesus day, most of them were deceived, so we know it is possible. There are numerous warnings about not being deceived in the end times, if the elect refers to an informed and watchful church, then avoiding deception is possible.

As you can see verse 22 says those days will be cut short and for the sake of the elect. Now for some reason, my pre-tribulation brethren (and sisteren), choose to think that the word "elect" in this context, means Jews, in spite of the fact that everywhere else in the New Testament where the word elect is used where it is not speaking about Jews specifically as the chosen of God in the Old Testament, that word is used of those who are the chosen, the called out ones, the church.

Let's grant though, for a moment, the idea that Matthew 24 is addressed to the Jews and not intended for the church. It seems like Messiah was wasting his breath then, because here He is speaking to his apostles not a larger Jewish audience, and this instruction will be recorded in the New Testament something that the church would receive, but other Jews would not. Most Jews in our day, do not read the New Testament. I suspect that by the time the tribulation comes around even fewer Jews will be reading the New Testament. During the tribulation that might be all but impossible to even have or access a New Testament. After all this is the time frame in which the abomination of desolation will appear, and attempt to destroy the things of God.

Jesus gave warning in Matthew 24 that of all things that were to come this was the main sign to watch for. Now clearly, the apostles are not here today and so they will not be here to see this abomination of desolation. I have to assume that Jesus intended that those who really need to be watching for the abomination of desolation will be those who are present to see it, and of course, who are also informed enough to be watching.

Of course the apostles did not know that they would not be here to see it, but we know that now. Also the apostle Paul seems to have been warning the church of the same thing when he said in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:

 1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

You can see that in that context, he is referring to the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him, would that not be the so-called Rapture? Also a few verses later Paul says:

"Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;"

So here in the same context that Paul was talking about the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him (rapture), He speaks of the sign to be watched for. this man of sin who claims to be God himself. And Paul also talks about how this person is going to be destroyed when Jesus appears at His coming.

Maybe it is just a strange coincidence, but Matthew 24 says the same things. It talks about a terrible time, it talks about a terrible person, and it talks about Jesus returning visibly to put an end to this abomination, this man of sin, this antichrist.

Have you noticed that this scenario does not make a bunch of assumptions about two future comings of Jesus, about a rapture before the tribulation, etc.?

This is why I am always comfortable with the post-tribulation rapture position, because it does not have to make any assumptions, does not have to insert any ideas that are not contained in the text. So back to Revelation 3:10

In the text, in the Greek text, the language does not say necessarily anything about anyone being removed from anything. It does not explicitly name what people refer to as the tribulation, at least certainly not as some timeframe. It could well be implying that believers present will be protected from God's wrath, but God's wrath is never equated to the seven-year period that pre-tribbers expect to be delivered from. I should probably make one more observation before I got my post short here:

In Revelation 3:10, that promise of preservation is made specifically to the church of Philadelphia. Why should we presume that the church in Philadelphia, represents the believers of the last days just before the tribulation? Notice that there is a reason given why that protection will be provided to that church:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance". 

Does that mean anything? I actually think that it does. Perseverance is easily accomplished when you do not have to go through any suffering. If Jesus were to come tomorrow and rapture me, I don't deserve any special consideration. In other periods of time, the church has had to endure more. In other places on the planet, the church is in during more right now, than I ever had to endure. It is extremely easy to be a Christian and to persevere in the United States in the 21st century so far. If the rapture happens tomorrow I do not fit the category that explains why Jesus is providing protection.

Returning for a moment to Matthew 24, there is this:

 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Of course that also fits perfectly well with Rev 12, where we see the Jews who are protected in the wilderness during the tribulation, then it says in verse 12, that there is another wrath to contend with, the wrath of the devil. So, he cannot get to the jews, who does he go after instead?

Verse17 says he went off to make war with the rest, those who hold to the testimony of Jesus. 

Really? Christians during the Tribulation? Who knew?

Of course, if that wasn't clear enough, Revelation repeats itself on this point, in Chapter 20:

 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

What an amazing book, and the things it reveals.

Consider that in chapter 20, we see the souls of those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. Christians? They did not worship the beast or take his mark. That places it in the tribulation. Then, they come to life to reign with Christ for 1000 years. If that does not speak to Christians in the tribulation, dieing, and coming to life in a premillenial scenario, I don't know what else could be said

Can you see how what is described in all of these verses has people in during tribulation, people being killed, and hated for Jesus name. Are Jews killed for Jesus name? Or is that a description of the church during a time of tribulation? A time of deception, false prophets, lawlessness, love the failing . . . That is a time of tribulation. But what does verse 13 of Matt 24 say?:

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Isn't it odd how that better describes those who Jesus protects. These are ones who persevere. A church in the tribulation has an opportunity to persevere just as Jesus said of those in Revelation chapter 3.

That also fits well with what Paul said to the Thessalonians:

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Indeed the church is not destined for the wrath of God, as unbelievers are, we are destined for salvation. In the context of this verse, Paul is describing two groups of people in the last days when the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

To one group, destruction will come on them suddenly, but Paul says of the other group:

"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. 

All of these verse fit together into a seamless narative, like a hand fits into a glove.

Consider not adding ideas to the texts, that are not there, and just accept the word at face value.

 

that was a long one brother, .....but that  was awesome !!! this is biblical ,and this is truth ,as it is written ,AMEN ,

[Omegaman 3.0]

LOL, I had no idea it would be that long, I just intended to mention ek and tereo, and ran off at the fingers

 

[Last Daze]

On 12/11/2015, 4:57:45, Rick_Parker said:

• Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.  Revelation 3:10.

This verse tells us that because we are the Church, that we will be saved from this "testing." That means that the Church will not be present, due to the Rapture, which will take place prior to the "hour." This is a proof verse for the pre-Trib Rapture to us who take Scripture literally and in context and believe in it.

No, that's not at all what it says.  That's what you want it to say.  Making stuff up is not proof; it's what Hollywood, and apparently pre-tribbers, do.

22 hours ago, Kan said:

But does the Bible say how they will escape the testing? It could be while on earth, it could be special protection, or even death...not necessarily escaping the world altogether?

 

Good insight there Kan.  The verse actually says that for those who have kept the word of His perseverance, they will be kept from the hour of temptation which is coming on the whole world as a test.  There is no mention of a rapture, only that they will be "kept from" the hour.  Is it possible to be in the midst of something and be kept from it?  Absolutely.  Read about the plagues of the Exodus.  Is it possible to be on earth during the hour of temptation and be kept from it?  Absolutely.

• I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.  John 17:15

Notice also that the promise of being kept from the hour of temptation is for those who have kept the word of His perseverance.  What exactly is "the word of His perseverance"?  There are two scriptures that tell us.

• If anyone has an ear, let him hear.  If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.  Revelation 13:9-10
• Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.  And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”  Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.  Revelation 14:9-12

According to scripture, keeping the word of His perseverance is refusing to worship the false prophet by refusing to take his mark or worship the image.  Those who refuse to worship him will not face the time of temptation that will come on the world. 

[SINNERSAVED]

18 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

"In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered."

((This has been happening all over the world, for a long , long time;  millions in china, millions in africa, etc ))

http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm

"Miss Corrie Ten Boom was a Dutch survivor of the Nazi Concentration Camps. Her family had hidden Jews during the German occupation of Holland. For this they had been captured and sent off. Corrie was the only one to come out alive. Corrie was just one of the many evangelical Christians sent to concentration camps during the World War II. Her life hung in the balance during an ordeal that went on for years. But God was with her. Her faith was preserved in and through those terrible trials. She lived to testify all over the world of how God kept her in, through, and out of that time of tribulation. Corrie and her sister Betsy made this wonderful discovery.

"There is no pit so deep
that the Presence of God is not there with us". 

Corrie was finally released because of a typographical error.
For this slip-up to occur in the highly efficient Gestapo was surely a miracle.
The definitive book that tells her story is called, 'The Hiding Place'.
It is available on this video. Here is her story on Wikipedia.

Corrie Ten Boom has become a beloved light bearer for evangelicals around the world.
She is a shining example of a Western Evangelical Christian who was tested under fire.
She was proven and refined in the crucible of history. And she came through as gold.
In this capacity Corrie Ten Boom has earned the right to be heard.
She is eminently qualified to present this special word of warning to the Western Church.

In her worldwide travels Miss Ten Boom met with many Christians abroad. Many in the Suffering Church were enduring persecution just as she had. She met with Church leaders of the underground church in China. There she became aware of what had happened to the Chinese church in 1949. At that time Mao Tse Tung was bringing China into communism. The American missionaries had left the country. Chinese Christians entered into a time of intense persecution.

During that period the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine had been the accepted teaching. But there was a problem. And it turned out to be a serious one. This Biblically unfounded doctrine had not prepared the Chinese Church for witness under trial. Christian believers were interrogated and brutalized under the Red Guard. Many fell away from the faith in those times.

Other Christians found the promised spiritual reserves. They endured these tribulations and came through victorious.
(See the wonderful video 'China Cry' by tested and proven Chinese overcomer Mrs. Nora Lam.)

The Chinese experience with Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine is a telling one.
You will look for that doctrine in China today, and you will not find it.
It is extinct, ...... as dead as the Dodo bird.
It seems that this shameful escapist doctrine has been tried in the crucible of history.

And it has been found wanting!

The Chinese Church leaders asked Corrie to bring a word of warning to the Christians in the West.
Responsible evangelicals realize that our present religious freedom will not remain forever.
And so we now bring Miss Corrie Ten Boom's critically important message to the Western Church.
It is a message we can ill afford to ignore."

I hear you brother, your statement shows the actual people giving there lives for jesus and not looking back, we in America, have it like kings and queens, and will not be able to handle this type of situation like those under persecution and extermination, we complain if a football team loses , and we are stuck in traffic,

Huh.. what is that , we don't see the tribulation of the lives everyday , for following Jesus , and we think , we are exempt and get a free pass, but we cannot even see the other side of the world ,and what is going on. 

 and like I said, the news media will not show this, but we are held to a higher standard to faith and trust in Jesus , this is the part, we are to be doing, not just debating,

so when people say we are not going to go through the tribulation, they are deceived to believe a lie, like everything is okay . and it will not happen to them,,

this is why the BIble is clear, there is no rapture before tribulation, and soon it is going to be our time, they are already setting up , the believers , and we will go through the same process as you have mentioned in your , statement ,

simplejeff thank you for sharing

for we are at the doors, I was in Africa in the mid 80 's, and there was nothing like that happening, and now it is come to them for there step of faith , to accept or reject,

I think we should all say a lot of prayers for our fellow brothers and sisters and there families, having to give there lies for the same thing we believe in, and that we have the strength and power of God to endure until our end, .....amen..

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, angels4u said:

So at all times,I 'm ready to meet the Lord..

Amen come Lords Jesus..please come soon...

 

Amen.  Being ready is more of where I wanted the thread to go but ....that's alright.

[Omegaman 3.0]

9 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Amen.  Being ready is more of where I wanted the thread to go but ....that's alright.

That is just living life as a believer is supposed to. Nothing special there. Livng a life of service to our Master and our brothers and sisters. Certainly does NOT mean, "I am so tired of this place, I am ready for the return of Jesus." Though it certainly would mean that we look forward in optimistic anticipation for His return.

[SINNERSAVED]

2 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That is just living life as a believer is supposed to. Nothing special there. Livng a life of service to our Master and our brothers and sisters. Certainly does NOT mean, "I am so tired of this place, I am ready for the return of Jesus." Though it certainly would mean that we look forward in optimistic anticipation for His return.

 

15 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Amen.  Being ready is more of where I wanted the thread to go but ....that's alright.

I want to thank you , last daze ,

for bringing this post to the table, it has given me a great lesson from responses , and has shown me what I need to do to be ready , thanks to simplejeff, and omega man 3.0, and Ezra.

keep up the great work for the kingdom , in showing and guiding us in questions and biblical facts we need to be aware of,

you guys are awesome, and so blessings to you all , this has been a eye opener for me,

and yes, it really comes down to being ready , for what ever we are to face ,until the coming of our Lord, amen..

[Omegaman 3.0]

I am glad SinnerSaved, to me, that is what the forums are about, discussion brings a lot of ideas, insight, and scripture to the table. There can be a lot of light to be seen, in spite of the smoke and heat.

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That is just living life as a believer is supposed to. Nothing special there. Livng a life of service to our Master and our brothers and sisters. Certainly does NOT mean, "I am so tired of this place, I am ready for the return of Jesus." Though it certainly would mean that we look forward in optimistic anticipation for His return.

True, and while we may be vexed in spirit by all the lawlessness, we should not let our hearts become hardened.  We are here for a reason.