Looking forward to a DNA Hard Drive

[other one]

3 hours ago, siegi91 said:

There was a time, not long ago, where the same intelligences could not figure out where lighnings came from. There were only  two possibilities:

1) magic without a magician

2) A lightning emitting pagan god (e.g. zeus)

 

where would you have put your money?

 

 

same place I put my money today at the casino.....   fold it over and put it in my pocket.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2015 at 6:43 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I do not mean to imply, that one has to deny a big bang (let there be light) nor evolution. Some beleive evolution, can be a tool that God used. Certainly, we know from observation, that life forms change. We ourselves (humans) have brought about how many breeds of dogs from their ancestors the wolves, or how many varieties of tomatoes, from one original stain? Biological diversity is a reallity, and some of it is from some sort of evolution. The universe is expanding, that does strongly imply a central point of origin. I am not making a case against a big bang and and evolution, I am attempting to make the case, that is it extremely unlikely, that they spontaneously happened, apart from an intelligent designer.

In my post, I am pitting a philosophy of Godless, mindless, cosmic accidents, as opposed to the work of an intelligent creator. To be honest though, the case I was making, does not preclude the possibility or likelyhood, of the workings of an extra-universal, commitee of gods. The DNA facts, are not Christian specific, they do not tell us that we are sinners in need of a savior from the destruction we deserve, nor that God has provided such a savior in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

So, I think you are in error, to state that I claim there is a linkage, I never said that. I only address one common theory that people hold: 

In the beginning there was nothing.
Then, there was hydrogen.
The hydrogen expanded violently into the void, producing over 100 super hot elements.
Over time, these elements cooled, and formed gases and liquids and solids, and there was light, and the light was good.
Then stars and planets, galaxies etc. formed.
On at least one of these planets, conditions formed that allowed the possibility of life.
Then the unauthored laws of nature, hovered over the primordial soup, and life happened.
Life was difficult, however, mutations occurred, and sometimes, the mutations improved the survivability of new life forms.
One of these lifeforms, is reading this now.

Taken from one version of a theoretical atheist bible, Genesis, chapter one.

Personally, I don't see how a Christian or Jew can reconcile the Biblical account of creation with evolution.  Let's not equate selective breeding and / or adaptation to evolution.  They are quite different concepts.  Making the case for intelligent design is a worthwhile effort, albeit fruitless.  I do not believe God's existence can be proven this way, or any way.  When I was in college, before I became an agnostic, I was quite taken with the arguments for God's existence by Thomas Aquinas.  Prime mover and initial cause / effect were arguments that resonated with me.

God spoke the universe into existence from nothing.  The energy of His word was transformed into the mass and energy in the universe.  The universe is not eternal.  It had a beginning that began with God.  But God is eternal and existed before the universe.  The angels existed before the universe as the following verse states from the ESV translation:

Job 38:1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
Job 38:2  "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3  Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
Job 38:4  "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Job 38:5  Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6  On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:7  when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 

[Omegaman 3.0]

9 hours ago, siegi91 said:

There was a time, not long ago, where the same intelligences could not figure out where lighnings came from. There were only  two possibilities:

1) magic without a magician

2) A lightning emitting pagan god (e.g. zeus)

 

where would you have put your money?

3) A God unknown to the pagans

4) An undiscovered or not yet understood cause, emanating from the nature of the universe

Nothing quite as dishonest as playing cards with a deck which has a few cards removed. Nice effort, but I do ot grant your premise. We should never assume we have all possible scenarios, just be cause we cannot think of others.

[Bonky]

10 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

3) A God unknown to the pagans

4) An undiscovered or not yet understood cause, emanating from the nature of the universe

Nothing quite as dishonest as playing cards with a deck which has a few cards removed. Nice effort, but I do ot grant your premise. We should never assume we have all possible scenarios, just be cause we cannot think of others.

I don't think Siegi was trying to make a comprehensive list of possibilities, I think he/she was trying to make a point.  

Your last comment is actually what comes to my mind when theists regularly assume that if our Universe is created by an intelligence it must be a God who deeply cares about human affairs.  

The honest answer is, "we don't know".  We don't know why the Universe is here or why it has the physical laws that it has.  We don't know how life started exactly.  We need to keep searching for what answers/clues we can.  To me, anyone demanding that this is all the cause of a God is just making the same mistake Isaac Newton did with his celestial mechanics error.

[siegi91]

On 31 December 2015 at 4:09 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

3) A God unknown to the pagans

4) An undiscovered or not yet understood cause, emanating from the nature of the universe

Nothing quite as dishonest as playing cards with a deck which has a few cards removed. Nice effort, but I do ot grant your premise. We should never assume we have all possible scenarios, just be cause we cannot think of others.

 

Which was my point. And my point being that there are no known water proof arguments to prove the existence of (any) God. And that is why faith is required. If there were proof, there would be no faith. Nobody needs faith to believe that 2+2=4.

And, as you seem to confirm, It is possible that invoking the supernatural to explain the natural might be premature. As it has always been  in many past instances. Incidentally, that is one of the main reasons why the first scientist who postulated the "beginning" of the Universe, a Catholic priest, advised the pope not to draw any theological significance from it.

[Omegaman 3.0]

49 minutes ago, siegi91 said:

Which was my point. And my point being that there are no known water proof arguments to prove the existence of (any) God. And that is why faith is required. If there were proof, there would be no faith. Nobody needs faith to believe that 2+2=4.

And, as you seem to confirm, It is possible that invoking the supernatural to explain the natural might be premature. As it has always been  in many past instances. Incidentally, that is one of the main reasons why the first scientist who postulated the "beginning" of the Universe, a Catholic priest, advised the pope not to draw any theological significance from it.

I do not see anything there, that I need to disagree with. Faith, according to the Bible is a key thing, the key thing.  Any theory of origins, natural or supernatural, is believed by faith. Where one places their faith, might well be a deciding factor in one's eternity, I believe that to be true. However, I do not believe in Jesus, because I think it is the safer bet, and don't want to risk eternity, I initially believed in Him, I thought, because I thought that was where the best evidence was. Now, however, looking back, and looking at it through Bible educated eyes, I see that I was granted the grace, to believe, faith is the gift of God, which leads to salvation.

[siegi91]

8 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I do not see anything there, that I need to disagree with. Faith, according to the Bible is a key thing, the key thing.  Any theory of origins, natural or supernatural, is believed by faith. Where one places their faith, might well be a deciding factor in one's eternity, I believe that to be true. However, I do not believe in Jesus, because I think it is the safer bet, and don't want to risk eternity, I initially believed in Him, I thought, because I thought that was where the best evidence was. Now, however, looking back, and looking at it through Bible educated eyes, I see that I was granted the grace, to believe, faith is the gift of God, which leads to salvation.

Well, we seem to agree then. Believing in Jesus as a safe bet is something that, I expect, Jesus would not abide with. That would reduce faith to a risk minimizing exercise, which does not seem right. 

 

 

[Bonky]

Wouldn't we all agree that as a mechanism, faith is an insecure way of discovering truth in our lives?  I'm talking on a global scale.   Another way of putting it, has faith, overall served humanity well?

Edited January 5, 2016 by Bonky

[siegi91]

3 hours ago, Bonky said:

Wouldn't we all agree that as a mechanism, faith is an insecure way of discovering truth in our lives?  I'm talking on a global scale.   Another way of putting it, has faith, overall served humanity well?

 

I would say yes.  In general.

If we consider the fact that the vast majority of people have, and have had, a faith, and that we do not seem to be on the verge of extinction, I would say that faith is, at worst, neutral for what concerns our evolutionary fitness and prosperity. At least, until now.

I believe faith is very effective when it comes to overcome absurdism, or other nihilistic consequences of a mind like ours and a natural world whose only purpose seems, prima facie, the ultimately pointless trasmission of genetic code from one generation to the other. It gave us purpose so that we could find motivation to go on despite the apparent indifference of the cosmos and everyday's difficulties.

i doubt I would exist today if the world had been fully atheistic in the past.

 siegi

[Bonky]

Right, so a more accurate way to put it is that faith can be or is useful, but just not necessarily useful in determining what is actually true.  Hebrews 11:1  pretty much comes out and tells us that faith is substance of things hoped for and [somehow] the evidence of things unseen.   

As a skeptic and a rationalist, I obviously reject what that verse is implying.  

Edited January 6, 2016 by Bonky