SINNERSAVED Posted January 1, 2016 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2016 51 minutes ago, Ezra said: Absolutely. Beginning with the household of Cornelius, the apostles were shown that God is no respecter of persons, and that Gentiles would be an integral part of the Body of Christ. Interestingly enough, Christ's apostle to "the Circumcision" (Peter) was the one who brought Gentiles first into the Church. At the same time, Gentile believers are admonished by Paul (in Romans) to not be "high minded" (since they were evidently in the majority in the churches). We all need to remember that Messiah came to Israel first, that the Gospel was preached to Israel first, that in every city, Paul always went to the synagogues first, and only after the Jews rejected Jesus and their own salvation did Paul turn to the Gentiles. Jews, on the other hand, need to be reminded today that during the Church Age (while Israel is "blind" in part because of their rejection of Christ), God does not make any distinction whatsoever between Jew and Gentile, and all must come to Christ as sinners in need of salvation. The false doctrine of John Hagee (and now the Vatican) that Jews will somehow mysteriously be saved without receiving Christ is bogus. Also the setting up of congregations of Messianic Jews is certainly not what Christ had in mind, since He broke "the middle wall of partition" between Jew and Gentile. awesome. I am following you on this, and I think I am catching on, thank you Ezra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted January 1, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 14 hours ago, Ezra said: Zion, The validity of the OT is never questioned by genuine Christians. It is as much the Word of God as the NT. There are many promises in the OT, and there are also many prophecies in the OT. Some of the promises and prophecies are for all Christians (Jews or Gentiles), others are strictly for those who are of "the whole house of Israel" (the 12 tribes descended from Jacob/Israel). If we do not make proper distinctions between the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body) and Israel (redeemed and restored), we will encounter nothing but confusion. God has a distinct plan and purpose for the Church in the New Jerusalem, and He also has a distinct plan and purpose for Israel on earth during and after the Millennium. I didn't say the OT's validity was questioned by true believers, I was just making it clear that I don't either. That was not part of the question, that was a statement for the benefit of clarification. Also, I agree that there are some promises for the whole house of Israel alone, just there are promises for the house of David alone, and the throne of David alone, but the throne of David when blessed benefits the house of David, and the house of David when blessed benefits the house of Israel, and the house of Israel when blessed - especially with the salvation that comes from Christ alone benefits the whole family of God. We are blessed when we pray for the peace of Jerusalem. But some would say: no that's just for Israel because that's OT. I don't get that. But seriously, I do agree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted January 1, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,125 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,430 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted January 1, 2016 16 hours ago, OneLight said: I gave up worrying about things like this. I gave myself to God and what He wants to give back is just frosting since He already gave me everything I need through His Son. Salvation is the only gift that really matters. Oh I like the growth in a place that grows not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 1, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.70 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2016 4 hours ago, *Zion* said: I didn't say the OT's validity was questioned by true believers, I was just making it clear that I don't either. That was not part of the question, that was a statement for the benefit of clarification. Also, I agree that there are some promises for the whole house of Israel alone, just there are promises for the house of David alone, and the throne of David alone, but the throne of David when blessed benefits the house of David, and the house of David when blessed benefits the house of Israel, and the house of Israel when blessed - especially with the salvation that comes from Christ alone benefits the whole family of God. We are blessed when we pray for the peace of Jerusalem. But some would say: no that's just for Israel because that's OT. I don't get that. But seriously, I do agree with you I do not agree that there is a distinct plan for the Church in the New Jerusalem and a different distinct plan for Israel on earth during or after the millennium. When I actually dug into scripture and history, I couldn't find valid support for such an idea. What I did find was one plan for both Jew and gentile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 On 12/31/2015 at 4:18 PM, thereselittleflower said: I do not see them as speaking of two different things, but of the same thing in two different ways. In both cases, the branches are believers. They are speaking of two different things, entirely. They are two different metaphors and two different contexts. One has to do with our relationship with Jesus as the source of ministry. The other has to do with the relationship of believers with Israel. Mixing the two creates nothing but confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 12, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.70 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12, 2016 Just now, shiloh357 said: They are speaking of two different things, entirely. They are two different metaphors and two different contexts. One has to do with our relationship with Jesus as the source of ministry. The other has to do with the relationship of believers with Israel. Mixing the two creates nothing but confusion. That is your opinion. I happen to disagree, but thank you for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Just now, thereselittleflower said: That is your opinion. I happen to disagree, but thank you for sharing. It is not my opinion. It is the truth. One only needs examine the text to see it. But since you hate Israel, I can understand why you would be blind to the truth of what Paul is saying about Israel in Rom. 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 No one can, with a straight face, say that both metaphors speak to the same thing if they even have a cursory understanding of the passages. John 15:1-5 is about disciples and Jesus' followers as the fruit bearing branches of a vine, presumably a grape vine. It is about bearing fruit for the Kingdom of God. There is no grafting in, nothing about Israel, nothing about salvation of the Jews, none of that in John 15:1-5 Romans 11 is about the fact that God has not cast off national/ethnic Israel. His promises to ethnic Israel are not abrogated, far from it. The metaphor in Romans 11 speaks to the relationship of Israel to God and to the Church. Furthermore, Romans 11 is part of a great appeal started in Romans 9 calling for the Church to be a blessing to ethnic Israel by taking the Gospel to them. Two completely different passages, contexts and entirely different subject matter. To deny that as "opinion" is simply laughable and the available textual data simply doesn't support that. It's not even intellectually honest, whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 On 12/31/2015 at 6:37 AM, *Zion* said: Seriously, let's just try to be civilized about this, thanks. What happened to the above? When speaking as you did below? 1. But since you hate Israel, I can understand why you would be blind to the truth of what Paul is saying about Israel in Rom. 11. 2. No one can, with a straight face, say that both metaphors speak to the same thing if they even have a cursory understanding of the passages. 3. To deny that as "opinion" is simply laughable and the available textual data simply doesn't support that. It's not even intellectually honest, whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted January 15, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 13 hours ago, Joline said: What happened to the above? When speaking as you did below? 1. But since you hate Israel, I can understand why you would be blind to the truth of what Paul is saying about Israel in Rom. 11. 2. No one can, with a straight face, say that both metaphors speak to the same thing if they even have a cursory understanding of the passages. 3. To deny that as "opinion" is simply laughable and the available textual data simply doesn't support that. It's not even intellectually honest, whatsoever. Are you serious? Are you telepathic or something? Where would you even get the notion that I hate Israel???? What a bold assumption! Please read the original post again, the one at the very top, the one that starts off the whole thread. This is just saddening.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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