Soaking Sessions

[thereselittleflower]

3 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

My wife and I got out of the Charismatic Movement just a few years before this happened.  We saw the New Age Movement first-hand at our church.  God spoke to me and I spoke to my wife about it.  We were of one mind on the subject and left.  A number of friends also left the church at the same time.  I don't agree with everything Dr. John MacArthur teaches, but it's pretty close.  We follow several other ministers who had the same opinion of what was going on under the mistaken guise that this was the Holy Spirit.

I have to agree.  I was in the charismatic movement, and saw some of this stuff from the Vineyard movement and TB myself.  Eventually God revealed it for what it was, and I won't be part if it anymore.

 

 

[Zemke]

Ya that was no revival, My sister and brother in law were going to Toronto when I was young in my faith and I ask her where in the bible is this move of the Spirit so I can learn. I was honestly sincere. I didn't know but I was being discipled proper. She didn't know and would ask when they went, Found out later they were going to fix their marrage.

The next week I received a 7 page letter hand written front and back explaining pharaseeisms and being a part of the great falling away if I didn't repent and accept this move of God. Well after a few more visits their union became worse, he killed himself and my sister got caught up in country line dancing and hitched on to a good old boy that walked out some years later. She now is finally coming to terms with admitting that stuff wasn't God and is in a solid fellowship. Twenty years to have the faith to rebuke Toronto.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a cruel task master over unlearned poorly discipled sheep. And they used it. I read a "Catch the fire" magazine from Toronto and blasphemy and falling away was all through the thing, shame on you for even trying to defend it after all these years, Crazy stuff. This was no revival simply a deception that many got caught up in and many people hurt by it. You really have no excuses. You seem like a learned person but this topic is not one to defend.

Where in scripture is a mixture acceptable? Just by virtue of the fact you admit it was a mixture nullifies it being God. When there was revival at the time of Ezra, Nehemiah, Zechariah and Haggai they read from the scriptures, translating to give the sense of the text, Neh 8:8 I believe, and there were tears, not laughter, they put away their foreign wives, a mixture.

The Toronto thing was just a thing and accept it and move on. Don't plague yourself with trying to figure out what was and wasn't the Lord. 

 

[Qnts2]

2 hours ago, Davida said:

He has more than "some" points. He said he recognized he was influenced by a demonic spirit. You cannot mix the demonic with the HOLY. Many examples of GOD being against mixing two different types of things. Deuteronomy 22:1 "Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together." You can't mix unholy with the Holy and think you end up with anything good.
The whole thing was tainted. The Bible warns about being unevenly yoked & fellowshipping with darkness.  2Cor6:14 - what fellowship does light have with darkness?

Discernment is very desperately needed by the Brethren. I am just here to give warning, like a sheepdog. Like the Latter Rain Movement, this Charismatic Movement is a doctrine of demons and demons proliferated in the experience and were transferred from the anointing and person to person. These deceiving spirits can issue lovely sensations & feelings, feign worship and appear as a counterfeit the Holy Spirit.  This was all bad with only little bits of "good" in order to deceive Believers to lead them astray and spiritually defile them. This is how the devil works- always to attack what IS meant to give Glory GOD and to usurp GODLY worship. The devil was mocking the Holy Spirit. Pray for discernment. Those involved in that need to repent and ask for cleansing of all unrighteousness. I did. I am only here to warn others so they are not deceived.

The most basic premise of the Charismatic movement is that of continuism. I do not remember you answering whether you believe the gifts are for today, or if you are a cessationist.

If you could answer that question, it would give me a better view of where you are coming from. Since you implicate the entire Charismatic movement, those who supported the Toronto blessing and those who did not, then I understand better what you find objectionable.

We already agree about the error of the Latter Rain Movement, which initially was renounced by Pentecostal and Charismatic churches but tried to gain acceptability through the Toronto movement, and unfortunately, succeeded in some groups, in my opinion. Latter Rain is a theological error. Just as there are other theological errors. It is especially nasty in my view. And has some similarities to Dominionism, which is not limited to Charismatic movements but exists in a segment of Calvinism. 

I do not believe demons an be transferred person to person. There is no scriptural evidence that I can think of. I also do not believe Gods anointing is transferable from one person to another. God's anointing is based on God's calling for each person, and the anointing can only come from God.  I believe your statement about the transfer of demons from one person to another is wrong and unbiblical.

I also do not believe a person who is born of God, can be defiled as that states demons can defile God's spirit living within a person.  

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

2 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

The most basic premise of the Charismatic movement is that of continuism. I do not remember you answering whether you believe the gifts are for today, or if you are a cessationist.

If you could answer that question, it would give me a better view of where you are coming from. Since you implicate the entire Charismatic movement, those who supported the Toronto blessing and those who did not, then I understand better what you find objectionable.

We already agree about the error of the Latter Rain Movement, which initially was renounced by Pentecostal and Charismatic churches but tried to gain acceptability through the Toronto movement, and unfortunately, succeeded in some groups, in my opinion. Latter Rain is a theological error. Just as there are other theological errors. It is especially nasty in my view. And has some similarities to Dominionism, which is not limited to Charismatic movements but exists in a segment of Calvinism. 

I do not believe demons an be transferred person to person. There is no scriptural evidence that I can think of. I also do not believe Gods anointing is transferable from one person to another. God's anointing is based on God's calling for each person, and the anointing can only come from God.  I believe your statement about the transfer of demons from one person to another is wrong and unbiblical.

I also do not believe a person who is born of God, can be defiled as that states demons can defile God's spirit living within a person.  

 

 

One can believe in the continuation of all the gifts without being part of the charismatic movement which was birthed in heresy.

Azuza Street "Revival" gave birth to the Oneness Pentacostals  -  those who deny the Trinity.

 

Additionally  the movement was plagued by scandal, fraud, divisiveness, racism, occultic mysticism:

•  

  While most of the elders and the pastor kept themselves relatively straight, the scene which revolved around Azusa was increasingly being pulled by magicians, self-appointed preachers, self-styled prophets, and folk religionists -- which would revulse any Holiness devotee such as Parham, or for that matter any sincere Christian. (Their presence was mentioned in news accounts and acknowledged by Frank Bartleman.) They also triggered several of Seymour's biggest eruptions.

  Parham stomped off to try to form a church nearby, which quickly became yet another of his many failures. His rough personality, his demands to be in charge, his increasingly angry racism, and rumors of sexual misbehavior (spread far and wide by opponents) pushed him further and further out of the picture. Long before his death, Parham had become a marginal figure in Pentecostalism.

  This water/oil mix of Parham and Azusa (more like gasoline and flame) was the first sign of something that would plague Pentecostalism and become a part of its character: divisiveness. Two other problems that would later infect Pentecostalism showed themselves here : fraud, and the presence of occultic mysticism along its edges. Parham himself was an example of three other problems which would recur throughout Pentecostalist history: racism, authoritarianism, and sexual scandal. Also, one of the troubles with going by exciting experiences is that much of what went on was not thought through as thoroughly as was needed. So, not only were the greatest strengths of Pentecostalism born at Azusa, but also its most serious problems.

• http://www.spirithome.com/pentecostalist-history2.html

 

 

 

It was never from God in the first place.

 

Qnts, just because you believe something to be true, that does not mean it is true, and if you believe something isn't true that is true, then satan can be free to do what you think isn't true without you being able to recognize it.

 

 

 

[Ezra]

The most basic premise of the Charismatic movement is that of continuism. I do not remember you answering whether you believe the gifts are for today, or if you are a cessationist.

It is not an "either/or" proposition.  Cessation means the cessation of spiritual gifts which were to cease.  It is clearly stated in the Bible that certain gifts would cease. We also know from Church history that after the apostles and prophets passed, on those gifts passed on.  So many spiritual gifts are valid today, while others are not. In any event, a lot of the nonsense that passes for the manifestation of gifts is indeed nonsense. And "soaking" is also nonsense.

[Qnts2]

4 hours ago, Davida said:

Well Qnt2 , it doesn't matter what I personally believe about the "gifts" , it doesn't change the warning about Demonic Deception one iota. 

But , I do believe in the gifts that are mentioned in the Bible but not in a "hollywood" sort of way.  

 If you believe in the gifts ,then perhaps you might consider I'm offering my gift of discernment to warn about this movement.  

Ok, so you believe in the gifts but oppose the Charismatic movement. Do you also oppose the Pentecostal movement?

Right now I would not use your gift of discernment as I believe you have quoted people who grossly overstated and exaggerated what occurred at Toronto. That would not be the gift of discernment. You have also not indicated that you were actually present at any service at the Toronto church, so your judgment has to be based on second hand knowledge of other peoples write ups which is not the way to discern. Sadly, many of the articles on the internet were not from first hand experience but from second and third hand knowledge.

To rightly judge, one should be a witness. You have listed an article by one witness only, and while I affirmed some of what that witness said, the other problem was that witness was supposedly a pastor of a failing church, and that pastor blamed the Toronto blessing for the loss of the church. He also blamed the 'immaturity' of the people who attended his church.   I found the 'pastor' who wrote that article was actually a pastoral intern and not a pastor. He served for only a few months at that church plant in a neighboring city. The name of the church was not Toronto Vineyard, as he states. So, sadly, he is not a reliable witness. 

The Pastor at the Toronto church admits that he made mistakes and that there were excesses. But, that admission only raises my view of the Pastor of the Toronto church.

Since the main purpose as the Pastor viewed the Toronto blessing, was to share with Christians about the "Father's love" or in more common language, the love of God, I have to ask do you object to that message in sermons?

[Qnts2]

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

 

 

It is not an "either/or" proposition.  Cessation means the cessation of spiritual gifts which were to cease.  It is clearly stated in the Bible that certain gifts would cease. We also know from Church history that after the apostles and prophets passed, on those gifts passed on.  So many spiritual gifts are valid today, while others are not. In any event, a lot of the nonsense that passes for the manifestation of gifts is indeed nonsense. And "soaking" is also nonsense.

Continuism has a specific meaning, and is the opposite of Cessationism. Charismatics are continuists. Pentecostals are continuists, and some Messianic Judaism synagogues believe in continuism. I also know of individuals of other denominations not usually considered continuists, who are continuists in belief.

[simplejeff]

I've seen, in person and online, a lot of witnesses/ charismatic thru bible conservative and otherwise / that demonstrate the 'demons' released at the tb that destroyed fellowships all around the world with deception and defilement of uncountable ((so many there were)) PREVIOUSLY GOOD FELLOWSHIPS.  This is likewise reported online  with much more detail and the observations of many different Christian groups AND (fwiw) secular groups who also saw it.... (no, don't trust secular groups, by themselves)  TEST EVERYTHING....

I haven't seen any good testimony of the tb.  Anywhere.

 

[thereselittleflower]

3 minutes ago, Davida said:

Amen Zemke! 

Qnt2 is probably trying to ignore your points.

 

 

 

I think he is selectively ignoring several posts.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

On February 1, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Davida said:

Ethrayn,

Are these "Soaking Sessions" the same as what is called Contemplative prayer--then it is a form of mysticsm and that is not a part of the Christian walk.    Contemplative prayer sounds similar to this soaking session and seems akin to an opening yourself up in meditation and can be spiritually dangerous like other one shared.  As Christians we are to stick with what the Bible teaches us and not mix pagan practices in.  

 

Davida,

 

I do not believe these “soaking sessions” are pagan at all—but are rather, a modern way of appreciating the Holy Spirit (though, I do enjoy mysticism, but not in a pagan way, but rather, the enjoyment of the personal presence of my Lord as I am so blessed to receive for as long as I get it), and I do believe that you are wise to be protective of your own moral sanctitude.