Last Daze Posted February 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.11 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2016 From my observations over the years, there seems to be an event in Revelation that influences how people perceive the end times more than any other. That event is the seventh trumpet. There are basically two ways that people look at it. One is that the seventh trumpet is an event that is followed by the subsequent events of chapters 12-19, a view that sees chapters 6-19 as essentially chronological. The other is that the seventh trumpet breaks the chronology of chapters 6-19 and sees the events of chapters 12-19 as providing additional detail to chapters 6-11. It's not difficult to see how that one event can create two quite different points of perspective. I've seen numerous disagreements ultimately have their roots in how the seventh trumpet was understood. Consequently, it's an important foundational understanding from which others come. My view is that the seventh trumpet breaks the chronology of Revelation and that chapters 12-19 provide additional detail to the seven seals and trumpets. The reasoning for this view is: Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came. Revelation 11:15-18a Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:5-7 At the seventh trumpet: Jesus takes His power and begins His reign of earth. His wrath came. There will be delay no longer. The mystery of God that He preached to the prophets is finished. Because of these characteristics, it doesn't make sense that the events of chapters 12-19 follow chronologically. The seventh trumpet hearlds the day of the Lord and the establishment of the kingdom of God on earth as He preached to the prophets. It is the coming of Christ. For those who disagree with this view and see a chronological continuation of chapters 12-19, please explain all of the following: How God's wrath is finished at the seventh trumpet while the seven bowls of wrath are yet to be poured out. How there will be delay no longer when there is a minimum of 3.5 years longer. How the mystery is finished but not really finished. I'm open to opposing viewpoints but please address all of the above since they are all clearly stated as being characteristics of the seventh trumpet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted February 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,150 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,092 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2016 Last Daze Rev 9:12 - The first woe is past (the 5th Trumpet); Two other woes are yet to come. So do you consider the 7th Trumpet as a "woe" also? I would say the 2nd Coming is a Whoopee, not a Woe. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted February 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,995 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,693 Content Per Day: 11.72 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2016 We keep beating each other over the head trying to get others to accept our interpretation of Revelation and the End. There are a ton of threads on Worthy regarding this. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted February 11, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 271 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,292 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,552 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted February 11, 2016 4 hours ago, Montana Marv said: Last Daze Rev 9:12 - The first woe is past (the 5th Trumpet); Two other woes are yet to come. So do you consider the 7th Trumpet as a "woe" also? I would say the 2nd Coming is a Whoopee, not a Woe. In Christ Montana Marv Hi Montana Marv, I should say all those calling to the rocks to hide them, & those having their flesh come off their bodies, would all say it is a woe. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 11, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,643 Content Per Day: 8.02 Reputation: 21,726 Days Won: 77 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Marilyn C said: those having their flesh come off their bodies, would all say it is a woe. Marilyn. No I would probably say Ow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted February 11, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 271 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,292 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,552 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted February 11, 2016 28 minutes ago, enoob57 said: No I would probably say Ow Hi enoob57, Yes, Owwwww. So glad I`m in Christ. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted February 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.85 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2016 Hey Daze, Good thread. May I first ask, where do the 7 bowls fit into your timeline? Thanks. Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted February 12, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.85 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2016 4 hours ago, bopeep1909 said: We keep beating each other over the head trying to get others to accept our interpretation of Revelation and the End. There are a ton of threads on Worthy regarding this. Time will tell. Hey peep, maybe this subject has been covered previously but you can probably say that about every subject on Worthy. Even Jesus repeated his instruction so why can't we? Besides, I don't remember this topic and I'm sure I'm not alone. I actually think the points he make are very valid and demand answers. I hope I have some for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted February 12, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,192 Content Per Day: 1.49 Reputation: 2,574 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted February 12, 2016 6 hours ago, Last Daze said: For those who disagree with this view and see a chronological continuation of chapters 12-19, please explain all of the following: How God's wrath is finished at the seventh trumpet while the seven bowls of wrath are yet to be poured out. How there will be delay no longer when there is a minimum of 3.5 years longer. How the mystery is finished but not really finished. First off, I see chapters 4-9 (Seals and Trumpets) as sequential; 10-13 are focused on themes, with mixed chronology; 14-16 (end of Trumpets thru Bowls) are again sequential; 17-18 is thematic; 19 is a summary and then conclusion of the major events of 4-18; and 20 is Millennial. 1) No verse says that God's Wrath is "finished at the Seventh Trumpet." It only says the Wrath came, an aorist/timeless verb. These are translated as simple past tense, but not in the perfect, that is, completed/fulfilled. The exact same verb is found in 6:17 -- "For the great Day of His Wrath came, and who is able to stand." -- which means that it had begun at this point, but without any termination point of that Wrath being stated. Likewise in 11:18, in that no termination is implied here either. 2-3) Because I don't follow either of your two premises about the sequence of Revelation, your points 2 and 3 don't really apply to me. However, re: ...in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:5-7 -- this appears to refer to the time when God "will cause...the prophets to depart from the land." Zech. 13:2 The last two prophets will be the Two Witnesses that are killed just prior to the Seventh Trumpet. When the Kingdom begins to be established at the Seventh Trumpet, there will be no more need for prophecy. In the passage of 11:15 -- “The kingdom(s) of the world became the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ..." -- became is another of those aorist verbs, meaning the Lord's Kingdom on earth has been established at this point, but not completed/fulfilled. It will not be, because there will still be rebellion against the Kingdom during the Bowls, until the Beast is finally vanquished at the Seventh Bowl = Armageddon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted February 12, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.33 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2016 11 hours ago, Last Daze said: At the seventh trumpet: Jesus takes His power and begins His reign of earth. His wrath came. There will be delay no longer. The mystery of God that He preached to the prophets is finished. Because of these characteristics, it doesn't make sense that the events of chapters 12-19 follow chronologically. Actually, it makes perfect sense to take these chapters (and all of Revelation chronologically). Indeed, it is the only thing that makes sense. The references to Christ taking His kingdom and ruling, and to the Mystery of God being finished, are predictions of what is to come at the end of all the 7th seal judgements. So how are we to take the 7th Trumpet portion of Scripture? Factually, literally, and chronologically, as below: 1. Satan and his evil angels are cast down to earth (ch 12) 2. The Beast (the Antichrist) takes control of the earth (ch 13) 3. The 144,000 are taken up to Heaven (ch 14) 4. Those with the Mark of the Beast are judged (ch 14) 5. Armageddon is predicted (ch 14) 6. The seven vials (bowls) of the wrath of God are poured out (ch 15,16) 7. Mystery Babylon is judged and destroyed (ch 17) 8. Babylon "that mighty city" is destroyed (ch 18) 9. The Marriage of the Lamb is accomplished (ch 19) 10. The Battle of Armageddon is accomplished (ch 19). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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