pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Montana Marv]

And then John 14: 2-4 states - In my Fathers House are many rooms, if it were not so I would have told you.  I am going there to prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.

Now according to Jesus own words, He is going to the Fathers house to prepare a place for us, and we know the way to the place where Jesus is going. 

So we do not just meet the Lord in the air and return directly to earth.  Which is an inaccurate interpretation.

We go directly to Heaven at the Rapture to be in the Fathers house, as Scripture verifies.

And then Scripture says that only God the Father knows the time of the Bridegrooms arrival. (Rapture/Harpozo), if so the timing is not given in the Word.  So the Pre, Mid, Pre-Wrath and Post Rapture positions are not given/revealed by any Scripture.  I go by the Pre 70th Week position, a time which one cannot calculate.  List your Scriptures; Most of which everyone quotes is the Second Coming.

AS in the days of Noah before the flood people are/were (eating, drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage); all of which is freely done now at this time. Not so once the Mark of the Beast is implemented.   The privileged ones have the Mark of the Beast on them.  How long was Noah on earth before the flood (600 years old).   Matt 24: 32 and on.   Now if the "as in the days of Noah" exist right now; the owner of the house may come at any time.  Therefore keep watch because you do not know on what day or hour your Lord will come.   The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.  Therefore, keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour (the Bridegroom coming for His Bride).

I keep seeing that no one knows the day or hour, when one does not expect him, No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  The timing is in the Fathers hand.  The Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

I see a lot who expect Him coming for His Bride at the 2nd Coming, Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath and at the 7th Trumpet, and on and on.  Expect Him all you want; I perceive nothing but foolishness and rubbish for most of your positions on the time of the Rapture, because it is not there.  For only God the Father Knows.  And He ain't anyone of you/us. .

Yet, we all can pinpoint the 2nd Coming.  Not so with the Rapture

In Christ

Montana Marv

[7Dove77]

I like your post,Omega....Well said,,

Blessings,With Gods Grace..7Dove77

[Omegaman 3.0]

18 minutes ago, 7Dove77 said:

I like your post,Omega....Well said,,

Blessings,With Gods Grace..7Dove77

Thank you 7Dove77,

It is a hard balance to achieve, where you can say enough to make your point, but not burden people with too much to read, not be too accusative about how others are "just not getting it" and not overstating your case or sounding too arrogant.

I know I miss the boat on all of those points, so it is nice to get some positive feedback.

[n2thelight]

57 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I think the typical postie believes that the Lord gathers the dead in Christ to be with Him in the air, the clouds, etc, but not to the heaven of God. After all, Jesus comes down to catch the dead believers to Himself.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then the living Christians will join those who had passed on, and join Jesus, there:

 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

If there is any verse in the Bible that speaks of the rapture, that is it, the catching up IS the rapture.

That part is plain, very plain, so the question is, where do they go from there?

The next thimg Paul talks about is this:

2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief

So we see two groups of people, those who are saying "peace and safety" will find themselves caught off guard, just  as Jesus said it would be after the tribulation, when the Son of Man comes, how it will be like in the Days of Noah, when the unbelievers are caught off guard:

 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Very similar, two groups of people, the unbelievers surprised, and the believers expectant.

Posties see the similarity of Matt 24, where it says:

 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, ANDTHE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Since at the Rapture, the Son of Man comes and catches up believers who had died, followed by living saints, and gathers them together with him in in the air, or from one end of the sky to the other, we see no conflict with the idea that these are the same event, and therefore, not reason to come up with an invisible, secret coming to the Lord before the tribulation, that the Bible never mentions.

We agree with pre-tribbers, that at the second coming, Jesus comes WITH His saints, the Church, so in the absence of any verse that describes a pre-trib rapture, we just accept that the Rapture is one of the things that happens at Jesus' second coming. Nothing complicated or convoluted.

If this is how the scenario plays out, then Jesus and Christians to not go to heaven after the Rapture, they go to the Earth.

So, when you say: "Post Trib requires the Lord to gather His own and take us to Heaven and then turn around and bring us back again" ,

I just have to disagree, because posties do not believe that the Lord takes us to Heaven, your desribed post-trib scenario has nothing to do with post-trib belief. Therefore, it is not illogical as you  suggest, since your illogical scenario is not post-tribism.

More importantly, I suggest not making the mistake of substituting what you think is logical, with what the Bible reveals. Our faulty, human logic, is not what determines what it true. Atheists, Agnostics, Cultists, Muslims, Hindus, etc, all have some form of logic that appeals to them.

Quote

 

I think the typical postie believes that the Lord gathers the dead in Christ to be with Him in the air, the clouds, etc, but not to the heaven of God. After all, Jesus comes down to catch the dead believers to Himself.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then the living Christians will join those who had passed on, and join Jesus, there:

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

If there is any verse in the Bible that speaks of the rapture, that is it, the catching up IS the rapture.

That part is plain, very plain, so the question is, where do they go from there?

 

Here's what you and most don't understand,the dead are already with Christ,they get there at daeth....

 

Let's break this down as a child just learning,meaning subject and object

 

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

 

What's the subject?It should be clear....His coming and our gathering

 

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

What day?The day of Christ,correct?

 

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

 

What day? Told us in v2 the day of Christ, also something must not maybe but must happen first ,which is what?A falling away,I could stop right here for those of you who say Christ can return at any moment,as He can't because the falling away must happen.Anyway let's keep moving...

Oh and that man of sin also must be revealed...So for you rapturist can you please tell me how Christ can return before these two things happen?You can't because He won't!

 

Now for why Im responding.Again,subject

 

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

 

What's the subject?Those who have died correct?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

As I said from the start of my response,those that have died in Christ,ie,those that sleep Christ brings with Him.

Bring with Him from where?Would that be not from where He is coming ,which is heaven!!!

 

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

 

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

 

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

 

Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.

 

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

 

Again,the dead are already with Christ,that's why they are first

 

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

This simply means that,those of us alive at this time shall be changed to like those whom Christ brings back with Him,ie,those who have died...

 

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again WilliamL,

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Let's let Paul speak for himself:  

2 Cor. 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Phil. 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart [i.e., to die] and be with Christ, which is far better.

He can't make it any clearer than that: for a Christian, to depart this world due to the death of the physical body causes one "to be with/present with Christ." And Christ is in heaven, as numerous scriptures tell us.

I appreciate the response. We could discuss heaven going at length and you could select one after another of the many Scriptures that are usually quoted in support of this teaching. I have decided not to become further involved with this aspect in this thread, partly as it is off topic.

To simply state my position, I believe that man is mortal, that is subject to death, and that he returns to the dust. Apart from the resurrection he will have ceased to exist. I believe this is the NT and OT teaching and that the common teaching of immortal souls is derived from Pagan and Greek Philosophy. The main Church teaching surrounds heaven and hell at death and this has mainly replaced the Apostolic teaching of the return of Christ, and the resurrection and the Kingdom of God on earth for 1000 years.

This subject does affect how we understand the subject of this thread, the rapture, but I have stated in a number of Posts my disagreement with heaven going at death or at the return of Jesus.

Another concept that has been introduced, the 70-week prophecy also affects how we view the events surrounding the return of Christ. For my part I cannot accept the view that part of the 70-week prophecy is split off, and is still future and applied to the return of Jesus.

Kind regards Trevor

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, TrevorL said:

To simply state my position, I believe that man is mortal, that is subject to death, and that he returns to the dust. Apart from the resurrection he will have ceased to exist. I believe this is the NT and OT teaching and that the common teaching of immortal souls is derived from Pagan and Greek Philosophy.

And I believe and have shown some of the Scriptures that say that the soul remains sentient after death, and only the flesh returns to dust. And that you derive your teachings on death from Ellen G. White or another such teacher, placing their teaching above that of Scripture. As one concluding example of the Scripture teaching that the soul remains sentient and able to speak after death:

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them having been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest [in death] yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.  

8 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Another concept that has been introduced, the 70-week prophecy also affects how we view the events surrounding the return of Christ. For my part I cannot accept the view that part of the 70-week prophecy is split off, and is still future and applied to the return of Jesus.

In this we are in perfect agreement.

[WilliamL]

9 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Again, the dead are already with Christ,that's why they are first

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

This simply means that,those of us alive at this time shall be changed to like those whom Christ brings back with Him,ie,those who have died...

You are missing the distinction Paul is making (perhaps not too clearly) between the spirits and souls of the dead -- who are now "with Him [Jesus]" in heaven, and which souls at the Rapture will descend "with him" -- and the bodies of the dead, which will "rise first [from the graves]" to be rejoined with those souls. That is what the resurrection is all about: the rejoining of the souls with their physical bodies.

To thence "be caught up in the air," and return to His Father's house in heaven .

[n2thelight]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You are missing the distinction Paul is making (perhaps not too clearly) between the spirits and souls of the dead -- who are now "with Him [Jesus]" in heaven, and which souls at the Rapture will descend "with him" -- and the bodies of the dead, which will "rise first [from the graves]" to be rejoined with those souls. That is what the resurrection is all about: the rejoining of the souls with their physical bodies.

To thence "be caught up in the air," and return to His Father's house in heaven .

And I think you're missing the meaning of spirit and soul

 

The spirit is the intelect of the soul those two can't be seperated from each other,yet they are seperated from the flesh.....

[TrevorL]

Greetings again WilliamL,

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And I believe and have shown some of the Scriptures that say that the soul remains sentient after death, and only the flesh returns to dust. And that you derive your teachings on death from Ellen G. White or another such teacher, placing their teaching above that of Scripture.

My understanding of this subject is first based on Genesis 2-3, where man, not his body only is to return to the dust and Genesis 2:7 gives a definition of the soul, and this is not an immortal part of man that separates at death. Paul quotes Genesis 2:7 in 1 Corinthians 15 where it seems he was facing some form of Greek philosophy, that could have included immortal souls or Platoism. Paul taught the resurrection.

I have carefully examined their teaching, but I have not come under the influence of the SDAs, as I believe in the 1000 years upon the earth, while the SDAs believe that the earth will be burnt and desolate during the 1000 years. I have not heard a reasonable explanation of Acts 3:19-21 from them, and these verses are absent from all their books and literature that I possess, but I suppose they have explained it (away?) somewhere. These verses clearly teach that Jesus will not be in heaven during the 1000 years, and that the earth will be refreshed and restored during that time.

As far as influence or environment is concerned, my Sunday School teacher's favourite verses were the following, and although he never spelt it out at the time, these verses taught me eventually that the Bible promises are not centred in Heaven, but the future Kingdom of God upon the earth.
Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Galatians 3:8,16,26-29 (KJV): 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

He not only taught us these verses in Sunday School, but he sometimes gave the Sunday Evening Address. He used to conclude his talk with the above verses. On one occasion as my concentration lapsed, when the speaker took a pause near the end, my mate dug me in the ribs, and said a few seconds before the speaker: "And now in conclusion we will turn to Genesis 13:14-15". I will let you assess if this is giving heed to a man, or to the verses that I consider he faithfully expounded.

I mentioned this incident to my mate recently, who I had not seen for 30 years, but he could not recall this, nor particularly his emphasis of these verses, but it certainly has remained with me all these years.

Kind regards Trevor

Edited April 2, 2016 by TrevorL

[enoob57]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 10:45 PM, Montana Marv said:

I keep seeing that no one knows the day or hour, when one does not expect him, No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  The timing is in the Fathers hand.  The Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

I see a lot who expect Him coming for His Bride at the 2nd Coming, Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath and at the 7th Trumpet, and on and on.  Expect Him all you want; I perceive nothing but foolishness and rubbish for most of your positions on the time of the Rapture, because it is not there.  For only God the Father Knows.  And He ain't anyone of you/us. .

Yet, we all can pinpoint the 2nd Coming.  Not so with the Rapture

In Christ

Montana Marv

That is one of the strongest reasons of support for pre-trib catching up.... anything else mid or post we would know more the day and hour