pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Its not difficult you stated the following:

 

 

Elaborate, explain this statement becuase it doesnt answer my question...so there is nothing to dismiss in the first place and I agreed they are all dead in Christ....

So instead of trying to act like a smart ass and making things up....rather talk, interact like a christian, this isnt chess.

Why would anyone want to dialogue with this sort of spirit?  

You see the text demands they are literally dead in otherwords corpse, no where does the text demand to be treated as figurative....

See look at the following for context:

1 Th 4:14

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 

Jesus died literally, rose again literally, in the same breath Jesus will bring those who have DIED IN CHRIST (literally died not figuratively died).

Note: there is no distinction of seperate class of christians being made in that text; like "bride of christ christians vs tribulation saints christians". Only those who have died in christ.

For "we" believe ----- do tribulation saints believe? Yes? Then they are part of the " we"

Who have fallen asleep in Christ? Any christian who dead natural or unnatural causes at anytime for Christ.

In otherwords this verse is about resurrection

Now lets move on to

 

1. Th 4:16 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Again still keeping intouch with the theme of 1 Th 4:14, we have a repeat of the resurrection of corpses, christians who have died literally in believing in Christ raised, but are the first to be raised....in other words the those who have literally died, corpses are raised to life, literal life and not figuratively speaking.

Note: the dead in Christ

The adjective THE is a Definite Article as the arthur is still keeping 1 Th 4: 14 in mind ( we believe)- its also masculine and more importantly its used as a PLURAL: again no distinction is being made between " Bride of Christ christians" and "tribulation saints christians" 

As mentioned its masculine, which shows possession.... Who's possession? Christ

Now lets look at Rev 6:9

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

What was their testimony? That Jesus was raised from the dead..." for we believe that Jesus died and rose again" 1 th 4:14

Lets look at at Rev 6:11

Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Note: Given white robes = Possession 1 th 4:16

Note: rest/wait a little longer/ resurrection

Now yes you are right with the following statement:

 

 

But you are not part of that group, you are part of this group:

1 Th 4:16

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together 

So you have not answered my question at all, where do you get the conclusion that you are raptured before the dead in Christ?

 

The spirit of your posts are quite demanding and forceful even suspect ...

Jas 3:17-18

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
KJV

This is why many here will not address you here... Love, Steven

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, Paradigm said:

My questions are not intended to irritate you William or anyone else. 

I found that it often more productive to hold back and allow people time to discover things for themselves without being directly shown. If I ask the right questions, some will be motivated to search for the answers. Often truth has more impact if we have to search for it some ourselves. 

Questions are a very Hebraic way of learning. You will notice that often Y'shua did not answer directly, but would respond with a question. Or as it says in "The Matrix", "It's the question that drives us."

I'm not particularly interested in the hide-and-seek approach either.  It comes across to me as a "posturing" technique.  You asked questions.  We answered them.  Be forthcoming with your views so we can examine them and ask you questions.  It's a discussion forum.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm more than willing to adjust my views given an adequate scriptural basis for doing so, and have.  I don't really need to be motivated further for answers.  Its why I'm here to engage in reasoned, scriptural discussions.

[enoob57]

Probably won't friend with the spirit you bring to this table  

[Last Daze]

 

Again stop deflecting....perhaps if your going to dish it out learn to get it back....simply answer my question...theres no need for deflecting, everything I said was true....you are being a smart ass and making things up...no where did i dismiss what you said with your response to me but you failed to answer my question which im addressing.

Yet you keep persisting on not answering it by creating a different agenda....and playing a cat and mouse game...like I said to you Gods words are not meant for chess. Which you seem obsessed with doing.

 

You bring up a legitimate question.  If he could answer you, he would have.  That's why we have these discussions.

[Montana Marv]

 

Again stop deflecting....perhaps if your going to dish it out learn to get it back....simply answer my question...theres no need for deflecting, everything I said was true....you are being a smart ass and making things up...no where did i dismiss what you said with your response to me but you failed to answer my question which im addressing.

Yet you keep persisting on not answering it by creating a different agenda....and playing a cat and mouse game...like I said to you Gods words are not meant for chess. Which you seem obsessed with doing.

 

Read John 14. In my Father's House.... For this is referring to the Bride. Then look at the last verses of Daniel. At the last day, you will arise to receive your alloted inheritance. The land.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Ezra]

 

 

Pre tribulation is a somewhat arrogant philosophy, in my opinion as well, which may be another reason pritribbers have bad attitudes.

Esther, this offensive remark shows your bad attitude.  Deal with the issues and stop trying to show how much better you are than those who do not agree with you.

As to "arrogant philosophy" there are more Christians who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture than otherwise.  So you are accusing them all of arrogance. That in itself is arrogant.  

[MorningGlory]

 

Its not difficult you stated the following:

 

 

Elaborate, explain this statement becuase it doesnt answer my question...so there is nothing to dismiss in the first place and I agreed they are all dead in Christ....

So instead of trying to act like a smart ass and making things up....rather talk, interact like a christian, this isnt chess.

You see the text demands they are literally dead in otherwords corpse, no where does the text demand to be treated as figurative....

See look at the following for context:

1 Th 4:14

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 

Jesus died literally, rose again literally, in the same breath Jesus will bring those who have DIED IN CHRIST (literally died not figuratively died).

Note: there is no distinction of seperate class of christians being made in that text; like "bride of christ christians vs tribulation saints christians". Only those who have died in christ.

For "we" believe ----- do tribulation saints believe? Yes? Then they are part of the " we"

Who have fallen asleep in Christ? Any christian who dead natural or unnatural causes at anytime for Christ.

In otherwords this verse is about resurrection

Now lets move on to

1. Th 4:16 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Again still keeping intouch with the theme of 1 Th 4:14, we have a repeat of the resurrection of corpses, christians who have died literally in believing in Christ raised, but are the first to be raised....in other words the those who have literally died, corpses are raised to life, literal life and not figuratively speaking.

Note: the dead in Christ

The adjective THE is a Definite Article as the arthur is still keeping 1 Th 4: 14 in mind ( we believe)- its also masculine and more importantly its used as a PLURAL: again no distinction is being made between " Bride of Christ christians" and "tribulation saints christians" 

As mentioned its masculine, which shows possession.... Who's possession? Christ

Now lets look at Rev 6:9

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

What was their testimony? That Jesus was raised from the dead..." for we believe that Jesus died and rose again" 1 th 4:14

Lets look at at Rev 6:11

Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Note: Given white robes = Possession 1 th 4:16

Note: rest/wait a little longer/ resurrection

Now yes you are right with the following statement:

 

 

But you are not part of that group, you are part of this group:

1 Th 4:16

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together 

So you have not answered my question at all, where do you get the conclusion that you are raptured before the dead in Christ?

 

Telling a fellow believer he's trying to act like a 'smart a$$' shows a definite lack of the ability to communicate in a Christian way. Such a comment completely negates everything you said, IMO.

[Esther4:14]

 

 

Esther, this offensive remark shows your bad attitude.  Deal with the issues and stop trying to show how much better you are than those who do not agree with you.

As to "arrogant philosophy" there are more Christians who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture than otherwise.  So you are accusing them all of arrogance. That in itself is arrogant.  

Actually, I had an argument for that Ezra from scripture.  It is a primary reason I question the theory because I find it hard to believe that when Adam and Eve were punished with death because of disobeying Him by eating the apple, and only Enoch and Elijah were ever captured.  I find it makes me uncomfortable to somewhat blindly claim to have the same privelage.  

But, that's just me.  I just don't feel comfortable boasting about something only two people have done because of what the Bible says about sin.  

The Son of God died on the cross because of sin.  It is one of the first things I find wrong with the theory.  I do believe it requires a certain arrogance to maintain a line of thinking that one is equal with the likes of Elijah.  

I would err on the side of caution and consider Elijah greater than myself, therefore I will probably not be raptured if I have also never seen an offering burn up before the prophets of Baal.  

This does not mean I think I will be under wrath according to the Revelation of John, but that just still doesn't make me feel comfortable comparing myself to Elijah without and the support in scripture suggesting that the theory of rapture is lacking and seems to come more from the imagination of the reader in response to individuals verses, than those verses speaking together.  

I can and do frequently have conversations with others that are absent of the vocabulary of the ones who frequently defend pre tribulation rapture here and when they can't see my face I would imagine.  

However, love in this fishbowl of believers seem to depend on whether or not you agree with them most of the time. 

I will still never forget the thread about Islam where I was told I would be a perfect candidate for ISIS to kidnap.  It turns out many of these early insults came from people who are pre trib.  

I will probably never be able to forget these early attacks.  In real life I am kind of a small girl, I have never been in a fight, people have never spoken to me the way they have here.  

I will never be able to forget these things and while I have tried to find a way to move on and continue to share my passion for scripture.  I know I have a passion.  I don't think it is the best, but I will say I know I am disciplined, surely enough to deserve more respect even if someone disagrees with me.

 I am sorry but the frequent lashes that I do everything in my power to avoid now, color my opinion of people who believe in pre trib rapture at this point.  

 

[Montana Marv]

 

Sure but the problem still persists, there is an order:- first the dead then those who are still alive. Cant change that.

While John wrote John 14, he also wrote Revelation:

Notice what your trying to interject and the realty of the situation

While in John 14:3

John 14:3
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

Now notice in 
Rev 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

I dont see the souls living in many rooms.

Clearly its not prepared yet.

That is the point. We will have received are Resurrected bodies around Pretrib and thus be in the Fathers House. Those beheaded for their faith are under the altar and are waiting for others.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[SINNERSAVED]

 

Actually, I had an argument for that Ezra from scripture.  It is a primary reason I question the theory because I find it hard to believe that when Adam and Eve were punished with death because of disobeying Him by eating the apple, and only Enoch and Elijah were ever captured.  I find it makes me uncomfortable to somewhat blindly claim to have the same privelage.  

But, that's just me.  I just don't feel comfortable boasting about something only two people have done because of what the Bible says about sin.  

The Son of God died on the cross because of sin.  It is one of the first things I find wrong with the theory.  I do believe it requires a certain arrogance to maintain a line of thinking that one is equal with the likes of Elijah.  

I would err on the side of caution and consider Elijah greater than myself, therefore I will probably not be raptured if I have also never seen an offering burn up before the prophets of Baal.  

This does not mean I think I will be under wrath according to the Revelation of John, but that just still doesn't make me feel comfortable comparing myself to Elijah without and the support in scripture suggesting that the theory of rapture is lacking and seems to come more from the imagination of the reader in response to individuals verses, than those verses speaking together.  

I can and do frequently have conversations with others that are absent of the vocabulary of the ones who frequently defend pre tribulation rapture here and when they can't see my face I would imagine.  

However, love in this fishbowl of believers seem to depend on whether or not you agree with them most of the time. 

I will still never forget the thread about Islam where I was told I would be a perfect candidate for ISIS to kidnap.  It turns out many of these early insults came from people who are pre trib.  

I will probably never be able to forget these early attacks.  In real life I am kind of a small girl, I have never been in a fight, people have never spoken to me the way they have here.  

I will never be able to forget these things and while I have tried to find a way to move on and continue to share my passion for scripture.  I know I have a passion.  I don't think it is the best, but I will say I know I am disciplined, surely enough to deserve more respect even if someone disagrees with me.

 I am sorry but the frequent lashes that I do everything in my power to avoid now, color my opinion of people who believe in pre trib rapture at this point.  

 

I hear you Esther 4;14., and you do not have to apologize to any one, for we all can see from out side, what is going on in the fish bowl, for it is not nice, for some, to get away with rude and very ugly remarks, and they do but when it is on the other hand it is about how you are to conduct your self, so no worries sister, I think you are doing a great job in sharing and helping to understand some scripture here, and its not about what others want to say  but what the subject and topic is about, I hear you , and agree with you , and not all of us are on the same page, but ?

 God is good, and we can only praise our God  and let the evil take its course, we are not here to argue with others that want to dominate  other views ,and  opinions, for , jesus yes, even jesus turned the tables and yelled at the Pharisees and called them vipers, and  how they block the way so people can go in ,to the kingdom of God, and put blind guides to them, and they don't go in also ?, and so they deceive them selves, and this is part of the teaching, sad to say, but great points that you brought up , and I enjoy your witness, and inchrist also , keep up the great job, and bring the truth to  the people

pre rapture is false, and its a deception to the intellect, and to those that cannot humble them selves to God for what the real truth is , that we all will have and go through tribulation, we spend far tomuch time thinking if it is or not, when all people need to know , if you want to believe that, then that is fine, But , be ready and prepared , in case you flight gets delayed or cancelled, you know what I mean ?

 blessings and peace