the scripture of Genesis Water above, and water below the heavens ?

[Retrobyter]

On April 4, 2016 at 9:41 PM, OakWood said:

Yes, all magnets have two poles but that doesn't mean to say that the magnetic rocks found near the North Pole have their opposite pole in Antarctica does it? The opposite pole might be somewhere else. Use some Common sense here. And by the way, I am fully aware that not all science is of the devil. At University I studied chemistry along with nuclear chemistry. I'm not an idiot. I'm aware of the scientific method. Unfortunately not a lot of scientists seem to be using it these days.

Instead of blabbing on about magnets why not use the eyes and ears that God gave you and work it out for yourself, or better still answer the questions that Flat-Earthers have raised such as why the horizon always remains at eye level which would be impossible on a flat Earth. Perhaps if you stopped digressing and focused on the big picture instead of smugly talking about magnets as if all Flat-Earthers are village idiots then we might get somewhere.

Oh and another thing. Don't forget about God and scripture. The Bible does not comply with a spinning globe Earth. Perhaps you may have forgotten scripture but I haven't.

SHALOM, OakWood. Peace, bro'!

Please don't take my comments as a personal affront! Okay, perhaps I was a little condescending to you, thinking you hadn't thought it through about magnets, but that's no reason to act so defensively. When one acts defensively, it INVITES negative, reciprocal actions! This attitude may LEAD to you being denigrated by others. I shall not make that mistake twice! I'm sorry and I hope you can forgive my condescension.

Let's look at this rationally, please. You've studied chemistry and nuclear chemistry. Good! Then we've got something in common! I may have only gone to a university for a bachelor's degree in computer engineering, but while in a community college leading up to the university, I achieved an award for chemistry and another one for physics. Earned myself a CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics as the award, which is not a cheap book! (Had tied for first place in Physics, so I bowed the second award to my colleague. She was every bit as studious as I, and probably a bit smarter.

I agree with you that many of today's scientists do not seem to be using the scientific method.

When I was growing up, I read a little book that I found fascinating. I purchased the book! The title of the book was "Everything Happens to Stuey." In it, he made the mistake of taking the findings he had measured and blurting out in class, "The world is FLAT!"

Some mirages, especially sea-going mirages, are like this! Not all mirages are inverted! They must bend the light beyond the critical angle to see them inverted. Now, suppose you were taking measurements and saw the ship in the distance at the top position. What would you normally conclude? That the earth is flat, right? However, because of this kind of mirage, the ship is actually at the lower position beyond the curvature of the earth and thus beyond (and below) the horizon. So, all one would see IS the mirage position! Only ballistics would prove the ship is not really at that position! (And, I'm not suggesting shooting AT the ship! I'm saying shoot something TO the ship!)

Regarding the Bible not complying with a spinning globe, have you read ...

Job 38:12-14
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
KJV

or ...

Job 26:6-7
6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
KJV

[OakWood]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

SHALOM, OakWood. Peace, bro'!

Please don't take my comments as a personal affront! Okay, perhaps I was a little condescending to you, thinking you hadn't thought it through about magnets, but that's no reason to act so defensively. When one acts defensively, it INVITES negative, reciprocal actions! This attitude may LEAD to you being denigrated by others. I shall not make that mistake twice! I'm sorry and I hope you can forgive my condescension.

Let's look at this rationally, please. You've studied chemistry and nuclear chemistry. Good! Then we've got something in common! I may have only gone to a university for a bachelor's degree in computer engineering, but while in a community college leading up to the university, I achieved an award for chemistry and another one for physics. Earned myself a CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics as the award, which is not a cheap book! (Had tied for first place in Physics, so I bowed the second award to my colleague. She was every bit as studious as I, and probably a bit smarter.

I agree with you that many of today's scientists do not seem to be using the scientific method.

When I was growing up, I read a little book that I found fascinating. I purchased the book! The title of the book was "Everything Happens to Stuey." In it, he made the mistake of taking the findings he had measured and blurting out in class, "The world is FLAT!"

Some mirages, especially sea-going mirages, are like this! Not all mirages are inverted! They must bend the light beyond the critical angle to see them inverted. Now, suppose you were taking measurements and saw the ship in the distance at the top position. What would you normally conclude? That the earth is flat, right? However, because of this kind of mirage, the ship is actually at the lower position beyond the curvature of the earth and thus beyond (and below) the horizon. So, all one would see IS the mirage position! Only ballistics would prove the ship is not really at that position! (And, I'm not suggesting shooting AT the ship! I'm saying shoot something TO the ship!)

Regarding the Bible not complying with a spinning globe, have you read ...

Job 38:12-14
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
KJV

or ...

Job 26:6-7
6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
KJV

There are many other scientific proofs of a Flat Earth if you actually research it. But you have to research it. I'm not an expert on every aspect but science (using the scientific method) does disprove a spinning Globe Earth.

As for the scriptural reference to the Earth hanging on nothing, well that could apply to a stationary Earth. In fact a hanging Earth suggests that it doesn't move. If it moves it can't be hanging. Things that hang are more or less still. You really have to clutch at straws to suggest that this verse refers to a spinning globe, in fact if you lived hundreds of years ago and had never heard anyone describe the Earth as a globe, you would never, ever assume that this verse referred to a spinning globe, but if you already believe the Earth to be a globe then you can just about make this verse apply if you really stretch credibility. In fact if you believed the Earth to be diamond-shaped and made of cheese you could make Job 26:7 fit in with this view. But there are other Bible verses that simply do not work with a heliocentric model unless you dismiss these verses altogether or somehow pretend that they are not meant to be taken literally. While you have the Heliocentric globe model in your head you will always be adjusting the meaning of the Bible to fit that worldview. It's this propaganda that has led some Christians to believe in Evolution and to believe that the Earth is four billion years-old and that the six-day creation is not literal. They are trying to compromise between two completely different worldviews and it just doesn't work.

You have to be like a child and empty your mind of what you have been taught, not to believe that the Earth is flat, nor to believe that it is a globe, but to believe neither and then start from scratch... Imagine you hadn't been told what the Earth was like but you decided to find out for yourself.

There are things about a spinning globe that are simply NOT possible with what our observations tell us, but the Flat Earth theory is possible under all observations. The Earth is simply not curved. Trigonometry proves it, and other experiments prove it. The Flat Earth movement is growing and the people involved are regularly proving time and again that the Earth does not move. I didn't believe it myself at first but I've now seen enough evidence to know that the current model of the Universe that the Media are feeding us is completely wrong. This is the biggest deception ever played on mankind but now it is being exposed and the powers-that-be don't like it.

People involved with the lie are even coming forward as whistle-blowers including former NASA employees and former airline pilots. They have nothing to gain from this but everything to lose.

We are told by the Bible that there is a firmament above us. A firmament is NOT a vacuum and therefore is NOT Outer Space. There's nothing firm about Outer Space. We are told that the Earth has pillars. We are told that it is the Sun and Moon that actually move above us, not that we move around the Sun. Yes, it's possible that God is describing the movement of the Sun from our Earthly viewpoint for our sakes, but if so why would he then confuse us by mentioning pillars and firmaments?

It is not God that is lying to us, God has been honest with us from the start. It is NASA that is lying to us. It is the people behind the Satanic agenda that are lying to us. It was the Catholic Church that started this lie when they accepted Copernicus' theory and Copernicus himself was a Jesuit Freemason. Even in the 1930s and the 1940s there were scientists who believed that the Earth was flat. They were only silenced once and for all when rockets finally went high enough to photograph the Earth and demonstrate that it really was round..... but of course the photos were faked.

They are even wrong about gravity. Nikola Tesla explained and demonstrated that it was electromagnetic forces that kept us on Earth and that the theory of gravity was completely wrong. But Tesla's claims were dumped in favour of the pseudo-science perpetuated by people like Einstein. These men were great thinkers but they were nothing but theorists, and theoretical physics became favoured over experimental physics, and it still is today.

We are constantly force-fed a diet of theoretical nonsense which the ordinary man simply has to accept because he has either no understanding of it or he doesn't have the means to disprove it. We are told that they have finally discovered the Higg's boson. we are told that they have observed mesons, we are told that there is dark matter in space. Even the best physicist in the World cannot prove that these are all lies because he simply does not have the money or the resources to do so, so he has to accept what he is told and buy into it. In fact it's very likely that he obtained his physics degree because he bought into it. He simply accepted what he was taught.

It's also quite laughable that astronauts had already been into space (allegedly) before the Van Allen belts were discovered, yet when they were discovered we were told that these belts are extremely dangerous and it is very difficult to pass through them and that they could fry a spaceship and that the radiation from them was lethal. Yet astronauts had already passed through them safely (before they knew the belts existed). It's a joke. Does that mean that before Isaac Newton claimed to have discovered gravity that nothing ever fell down because we didn't know that gravity existed? It really is a joke... they just seem to be making it up as they go along.

There has been no man on the Moon since 1972, why not? They managed to get a man on the Moon in the 1960s using 1960s technology but you're telling me that they can't do it now? Well the truth is they have never sent a man to the moon. It's all smoke and mirrors and tricks of cinematography. Even the recent Chines space program has been shown to be a hoax. If you watch the footage you can clearly see bubbles rising out of one of the astronaut's space helmet. Bubbles? In Outer Space? Of course it was all filmed in a swimming pool!

Space is a lie, a vast empty universe is a lie, the Big bang is a lie and of course Evolution is a lie, and Evolution is only believable if these other things are true. Without the lie of Outer Space there is absolutely no reason for anybody to not believe in God. But when the powers-that-be first sent rockets up they discovered massive evidence for God's existence. Their rockets were being stopped by God's firmament and they saw that the Earth was flat. It must have scared them because they decided to hide all this from the World and it's no accident that in the same decade they closed ranks and immediately started to seal Antarctica off too.

They are hiding God from us. We have evidence of his existence but they are concealing the evidence!

 

[Retrobyter]

On April 4, 2016 at 9:41 PM, OakWood said:

Yes, all magnets have two poles but that doesn't mean to say that the magnetic rocks found near the North Pole have their opposite pole in Antarctica does it? The opposite pole might be somewhere else. Use some Common sense here. And by the way, I am fully aware that not all science is of the devil. At University I studied chemistry along with nuclear chemistry. I'm not an idiot. I'm aware of the scientific method. Unfortunately not a lot of scientists seem to be using it these days.

Instead of blabbing on about magnets why not use the eyes and ears that God gave you and work it out for yourself, or better still answer the questions that Flat-Earthers have raised such as why the horizon always remains at eye level which would be impossible on a flat Earth. Perhaps if you stopped digressing and focused on the big picture instead of smugly talking about magnets as if all Flat-Earthers are village idiots then we might get somewhere.

Oh and another thing. Don't forget about God and scripture. The Bible does not comply with a spinning globe Earth. Perhaps you may have forgotten scripture but I haven't.

Shalom, OakWood, my brother.

Okay, this has gone on long enough. One doesn't have to be a "flat-earther" or a "globe-earther." Allow me to give you another "interpretation," the "interpretation" you SHOULD be getting from the text, namely, THE AUTHOR'S MEANING:

I was attempting to get as many verses that were taken out of context as possible. Here's one:

1 Samuel 2:8
8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
KJV

Allow me to give you the Hebrew:

Sh’muw’el A 2:8
8 Meeqiym mee`aasaar daal mee’ashpot yaariym eVyown l-howshiyV `im ndiyViym vkicee’ kaaVowd yanchileem kiy la-YHWH m-tsuqeey erets vayaashet `aleeyhem teeVeel:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

8 Meeqiym = 8 He-raises-up
mee`aasaar = from-dust/ashes/clay/mud
daal = a-poor-[person]
mee’ashpot = from-[the]-heap-of-rubbish/filth
yaariym = he-lifts-up
eVyown = a-beggar
l-howshiyV = to-sit
`im = among
ndiyViym = princes
vkicee’ = and-a-throne
kaaVowd = of-glory
yanchileem = to-make-[them] inherit
kiy = for
la-YHWH = to-YHWH
mtsuqeey = hilltops
erets = of-[the]-Land
vayaashet = and-he-has-set
`aleeyhem = upon-them
teeVeel: = [the]-population:

The word for "pillars," mtsuqeey (OT:4690), really means "tall, thin ... ANYTHING," but the typical word for "pillars" in Scripture is the Hebrew word, `ammuwdiym (OT:5982), as in Judges 16:25.

OT:4690 matsuwq (maw-tsook'); or matsuq (maw-tsook'); from OT:6693; something narrow, i.e. a column or hilltop:
KJV - pillar, situate.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

[OakWood]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, OakWood, my brother.

Okay, this has gone on long enough. One doesn't have to be a "flat-earther" or a "globe-earther." Allow me to give you another "interpretation," the "interpretation" you SHOULD be getting from the text, namely, THE AUTHOR'S MEANING:

I was attempting to get as many verses that were taken out of context as possible. Here's one:

1 Samuel 2:8
8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
KJV

Allow me to give you the Hebrew:

Sh’muw’el A 2:8
8 Meeqiym mee`aasaar daal mee’ashpot yaariym eVyown l-howshiyV `im ndiyViym vkicee’ kaaVowd yanchileem kiy la-YHWH m-tsuqeey erets vayaashet `aleeyhem teeVeel:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

8 Meeqiym = 8 He-raises-up
mee`aasaar = from-dust/ashes/clay/mud
daal = a-poor-[person]
mee’ashpot = from-[the]-heap-of-rubbish/filth
yaariym = he-lifts-up
eVyown = a-beggar
l-howshiyV = to-sit
`im = among
ndiyViym = princes
vkicee’ = and-a-throne
kaaVowd = of-glory
yanchileem = to-make-[them] inherit
kiy = for
la-YHWH = to-YHWH
mtsuqeey = hilltops
erets = of-[the]-Land
vayaashet = and-he-has-set
`aleeyhem = upon-them
teeVeel: = [the]-population:

The word for "pillars," mtsuqeey (OT:4690), really means "tall, thin ... ANYTHING," but the typical word for "pillars" in Scripture is the Hebrew word, `ammuwdiym (OT:5982), as in Judges 16:25.

OT:4690 matsuwq (maw-tsook'); or matsuq (maw-tsook'); from OT:6693; something narrow, i.e. a column or hilltop:
KJV - pillar, situate.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Of course you still can't explain why the horizon always remains at eye level no matter how high you go, nor can you destroy any other Flat Earth arguments,instead you claim that this has gone on long enough. Why has it gone on long enough? Who are you to say that it has gone on long enough?

The Bible does NOT support a spinning globe Earth, under no reasonable stretch of the imagination does it do that. You are listening to the lies of Man and ignoring the word of God just as prophecy predicts. I've told you to empty your mind and start from scratch but you prefer the Star Trek fantasy instead of the truth. Do you also believe the lie that the Earth is also 4 billion years-old and that we evolved from apes? If not then why not? You want to believe in the Heliocentric system because that's what Man tells you is the truth, so why don't you believe in the rest of the lies we have been told?

YOU ARE TWISTING SCRIPTURE TO FIT YOUR WORLD VIEW. So what if the word pillars can also mean tall, thin, narrow, or a column? THAT STILL DOES NOT SUGGEST A SPINNING GLOBE EARTH.... Tell me exactly how it does? How exactly does substituting the word pillar for 'tall' or thin' suggest a rotating ball that orbits the Sun? The truth is that it doesn't. You are the one taking verses out of context not me. You can continue to lie to yourself if you wish but that will not alter the truth.

Let's try substituting some of the words in the verse with the alternatives that you have given.

for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. (no suggestion of a moving spinning ball. Pillars don't move).

for the columns of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. (no suggestion of a moving spinning ball)

for the tall, thin structures of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them (no suggestion of a moving spinning ball)

for the hilltops of the Earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the population upon them. (still no suggestion of a moving spinning ball but a Flat stationary Earth would still fit in with this).

In short, nothing at all in the Bible even remotely suggests a rotating, orbiting ball-shaped Earth, although it's vaguely possible I guess..... but it can and often does suggest a stationary Earth. The ONLY way you would ever even think that the Earth could be a moving ball by reading scripture is if you have been told  that by men.

Some of the definitions you have given could also vaguely describe an Earth shaped like an octahedron that moves up and down,  then dances a foxtrot and orbits Mars, but some of the definitions do not. Whereas the possibility of a stationary Earth will comply with ALL possible interpretations, a moving Earth can only comply with some of them and then only remotely so and it takes something of a leap of faith to believe this.

If NASA had told you that the Earth was shaped like a pyramid and moved around Neptune in a figure-of-eight fashion, every single word of your last post, the post that I am quoting now, could be used to justify their claim...... so there's nothing there that specifies a spinning globe either.

But of course there's the scientific evidence which demonstrates the Earth can't be a moving globe which kind of destroys the globe Earth theory even more!

It seems to me that you have more faith in Outer Space and spherical planets than you do in the Bible, so much so that you will go back to the original Hebrew to show how the Bible may be describing a moving globe. Notice the word 'may' and not the word 'does' (and it's a very vague 'may'). I'm pretty sure that the Bible can be interpreted any way you wish even if you do go back to the original Hebrew and you use the loose interpretations that you have included.

The Bible does not specifically support a Flat Earth but it never, ever contradicts one, but a spinning, globe Earth can only be supported sometimes (very vaguely) by scripture but at other times it stretches reality to fit scripture in with the Heliocentric system. The mere mention of a firmament with waters above and waters below immediately brings in disrepute everything that modern cosmologists are telling us.  And that remains true no matter how many times you tell us what the Hebrew word for 'pillar' really means!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, OakWood.

Blah, blah, blah... You ASSUMED what I wrote and didn't READ what I wrote! 1 Samuel 2:8 is neither talking about a "flat earth" nor a "spherical earth"; it's talking about "LAND!" And, specifically, it's talking about "ISRA'EL'S LAND!" Would you completely ignore this MESSIANIC prophecy from Hannah, Sh'mu'el's mother, for the sake of some dumb argument?!!! Read the WHOLE prayer!'

1 Samuel 2:1-10
2:1 Then Hannah prayed; she said:

“My heart exults in Adonai!
My dignity has been restored by Adonai!
I can gloat over my enemies,
because of my joy at your saving me. 

2 “No one is as holy as Adonai,
because there is none to compare with you,
no rock like our God.

3 “Stop your proud boasting!
Don’t let arrogance come from your mouth!
For Adonai is a God of knowledge,and he appraises actions.
4 The bows of the mighty are broken,
while the feeble are armed with strength.
5 The well-fed hire themselves for bread,
while those who were hungry hunger no more.
The barren woman has borne seven,
while the mother of many wastes away. 

6 “Adonai kills and makes alive;
he brings down to the grave, and he brings up.
7 Adonai makes poor, and he makes rich;
he humbles, and he exalts.
8 He raises the poor from the dust,
lifts up the needy from the trash pile;
he gives them a place with leaders
and assigns them seats of honor.

“For the Land’s mountain peaks belong to Adonai;
on them he has placed the population.
9 He will guard the steps of his faithful,
but the wicked will be silenced in darkness.
For it is not by strength that a person prevails —  
10 those who fight Adonai will be shattered;
he will thunder against them in heaven —
Adonai will judge the ends of the earth.
He will strengthen his king
and enhance the power of his anointed (Messiah, Christ).” 
CJB (with modification to the above)

Why does the horizon always appear to be at eye level?

Simple. The size of a man is only 5-6 feet high. When compared to the size of the earth, that is miniscule. Thus, until a person goes as high as necessary to see the curvature of the earth's surface, that horizon does not begin to fall away from the observer. However, beyond that height, the horizon DOES fall away the higher one goes, as he or she leaves the earth behind.

It's wrong to assume otherwise. It's a false conclusion! Even if we were on a flat earth, the same thing would happen as we'd leave the disk below us!

[Kan]

The earth is "turned as clay to the seal"

A seal was like a rolling pin, a cylinder.

Just like pastry rolls into towards the roller, when it is rolled out, so the earth clings to the shape of a sphere. If the earth was flat, it could not be said that it turned as clay to the seal, because the seal turns the clay to itself, its cylindrical shape. Does this mean that there is just a crust and nothing underneath? Yes and no.

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Kan said:

The earth is "turned as clay to the seal"

A seal was like a rolling pin, a cylinder.

Just like pastry rolls into towards the roller, when it is rolled out, so the earth clings to the shape of a sphere. If the earth was flat, it could not be said that it turned as clay to the seal, because the seal turns the clay to itself, its cylindrical shape. Does this mean that there is just a crust and nothing underneath? Yes and no.

Shalom, Kan.

Yeah, and when push comes to shove, I like the NIV for the best understanding of this verse:

Job 38:8-15
8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb, 
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness, 
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place, 
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'? 

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place, 
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it? 
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment. 
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken. ..."
NIV

From the clues in the first part of the passage, this is a passage about the FLOOD. The NIV, then, is a better understanding of what is going on. God is reshaping the earth when the Flood of Noach's time period is abated.

Again, I don't think this passage is necessarily about the whole earth (although it is, by extension), just of what God's listeners were aware. To tell them information about the whole earth is beyond their understanding and is too much for them in their agrarian way of life. God was not trying to confuse them; He was making a point! "I was there; you weren't!"

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, Kan.

Just a thought more: You may be right that it is only talking about the crust of the earth (whether the outer shell of a global earth or the top layer of a flat earth) because the Hebrew word for "earth" IS "erets" which means "DIRT!" ("Planet Dirt," as Q in Star Trek Next Generation pointed out.) It actually refers to the "soil," and by extension, it is used for a "field" that a farmer owns and plows, the "land" (particularly the "Land of Israel"), all of the "lands" in a geographical area, or all of the "lands" of the whole planet/disc.

[Kan]

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Kan.

Yeah, and when push comes to shove, I like the NIV for the best understanding of this verse:

Job 38:8-15
8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb, 
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness, 
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place, 
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'? 

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place, 
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it? 
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment. 
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken. ..."
NIV

From the clues in the first part of the passage, this is a passage about the FLOOD. The NIV, then, is a better understanding of what is going on. God is reshaping the earth when the Flood of Noach's time period is abated.

Again, I don't think this passage is necessarily about the whole earth (although it is, by extension), just of what God's listeners were aware. To tell them information about the whole earth is beyond their understanding and is too much for them in their agrarian way of life. God was not trying to confuse them; He was making a point! "I was there; you weren't!"

 

Yes, it is very interesting, and although I am not particularly familiar with the Hebrew language, it reveals more depth to these passages. I don't agree that this passage is talking about the flood, but about the foundations of the earth, because God introduces the subject by a question about the foundations and what they are fastened on. Nevertheless I won't contend on that matter because both applications are true as far as I can see, because in the next few verses it talks about the springs of water etc. Which came after the flood waters were driven from off the land.

 

[OakWood]

On 07/04/2016 at 5:09 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, OakWood.

Blah, blah, blah... You ASSUMED what I wrote and didn't READ what I wrote! 1 Samuel 2:8 is neither talking about a "flat earth" nor a "spherical earth"; it's talking about "LAND!" And, specifically, it's talking about "ISRA'EL'S LAND!" Would you completely ignore this MESSIANIC prophecy from Hannah, Sh'mu'el's mother, for the sake of some dumb argument?!!! Read the WHOLE prayer!'

1 Samuel 2:1-10
2:1 Then Hannah prayed; she said:

“My heart exults in Adonai!
My dignity has been restored by Adonai!
I can gloat over my enemies,
because of my joy at your saving me. 

2 “No one is as holy as Adonai,
because there is none to compare with you,
no rock like our God.

3 “Stop your proud boasting!
Don’t let arrogance come from your mouth!
For Adonai is a God of knowledge,and he appraises actions.
4 The bows of the mighty are broken,
while the feeble are armed with strength.
5 The well-fed hire themselves for bread,
while those who were hungry hunger no more.
The barren woman has borne seven,
while the mother of many wastes away. 

6 “Adonai kills and makes alive;
he brings down to the grave, and he brings up.
7 Adonai makes poor, and he makes rich;
he humbles, and he exalts.
8 He raises the poor from the dust,
lifts up the needy from the trash pile;
he gives them a place with leaders
and assigns them seats of honor.

“For the Land’s mountain peaks belong to Adonai;
on them he has placed the population.
9 He will guard the steps of his faithful,
but the wicked will be silenced in darkness.
For it is not by strength that a person prevails —  
10 those who fight Adonai will be shattered;
he will thunder against them in heaven —
Adonai will judge the ends of the earth.
He will strengthen his king
and enhance the power of his anointed (Messiah, Christ).” 
CJB (with modification to the above)

Why does the horizon always appear to be at eye level?

Simple. The size of a man is only 5-6 feet high. When compared to the size of the earth, that is miniscule. Thus, until a person goes as high as necessary to see the curvature of the earth's surface, that horizon does not begin to fall away from the observer. However, beyond that height, the horizon DOES fall away the higher one goes, as he or she leaves the earth behind.

It's wrong to assume otherwise. It's a false conclusion! Even if we were on a flat earth, the same thing would happen as we'd leave the disk below us!

No,the horizon remains at eye level no matter how high you go. This is a fact and has nothing to do with a man's height. Even at 100,000 feet the horizon remains at eye level and remains straight. On a sphere the horizon would fall before that and you would have to keep looking downwards.  You appear to be answering a question that was not asked. I actually said 'no matter how high you go', so where six feet high comes into this I've no idea.

The Earth is not a globe...... it's not possible. Simple scientific experiments prove this.