the scripture of Genesis Water above, and water below the heavens ?

[SINNERSAVED]

I started reading my bible and went to the beginning , in the book of genesis , and God is saying let us separate the waters  under the firmament, and above the firmament, and above it will be called heaven , and the waters below are called the waters of the earth ,

 I never under stood the word , firmament,? and picked up another bible, and its calls it a Dome, ? what does that mean ?

 in genesis  chapter # 1, verses 6,7,8,9. psalms 150 :1, Ezekiel 1,22,23.,24,25,26.  &10;1 and Daniel 12 ;3 has that word firmament, or talks about this?

 what does that mean , are we in a fish bowl ? is the blue skies , really water ? heavens floor ?

 if anyone can help me out ,to see what are they talking about, that be great ,

 thank you and blessings,

[MorningGlory]

29 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I started reading my bible and went to the beginning , in the book of genesis , and God is saying let us separate the waters  under the firmament, and above the firmament, and above it will be called heaven , and the waters below are called the waters of the earth ,

 I never under stood the word , firmament,? and picked up another bible, and its calls it a Dome, ? what does that mean ?

 in genesis  chapter # 1, verses 6,7,8,9. psalms 150 :1, Ezekiel 1,22,23.,24,25,26.  &10;1 and Daniel 12 ;3 has that word firmament, or talks about this?

 what does that mean , are we in a fish bowl ? is the blue skies , really water ? heavens floor ?

 if anyone can help me out ,to see what are they talking about, that be great ,

 thank you and blessings,

Since man has left the earth and the atmosphere we know that what we see above us is not water.  There may be water above us but only God knows that for sure.  Here's the common definition of 'firmament'.  It doesn't mean a fish bowl or dome as far as I can find.

 

Dictionaries - Smith's Bible Dictionary - Firmament.

Firmament. [N] [E]

In Scripture the word denotes an expanse, a wide extent; for such is the signification of the Hebrew word. The original, therefore, does not convey the sense of solidity, but of stretching, extension; the great arch of expanse over our heads, in which are placed the atmosphere and the clouds, and in which the stars appear to be placed, and are really seen. --Webster.

[Paradigm]

Often the word for heavens is "shamayim." It is directly related to the word for water "mayim." In fact, "shamayim" could even be interpreted as "there is water." We see the word shamayim in verse one of Genesis. 

Beresheet bara Elohim et hashamayim vaet haaretz. 

Ha-shamayim is usually translated the heavens or in some translations merely heaven though it is actually plural. 

Of course there are different realms of the heavens. 

Heavens (shamayim) is masculine plural and earth (aretz) is feminine. These various realms affect one another in various ways. We can see this for example in the book of Daniel with the Prince of Persia and Prince of Greece. There is a counterpart on earth to what is going on in the warfare of other dimensions, though not necessarily synchronized. 

Just as water reflects what is above it, the heavens reflect a message as well. For as it is written: The Heavens declare the glory of Elohim. Psalm 19

When Paul said faith comes by hearing the word, he was talking about this passage and quotes a portion of it. 

Romans 10:14-18  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?¹⁵ And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! ¹⁶ But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

¹⁷ So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.¹⁸ But I say, Have they not heard?

Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

Psalm 19:1-4 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.² Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.³ There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.⁴ Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

 

Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

In the verse in Job above, we see that the sky is like a molten looking glass or mirror. It was the mirrors of the women that were donated for the copper laver in the tabernacle. Therefore the thing that was made from mirrors was filled with water for the priests to wash in. They would see their reflection in the surface as they washed. Seeing through a glass darkly so to speak.

 

Ex 38:8  And he made the laver of brass, and the foot of it of brass, of the lookingglasses of the women assembling, which assembled at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

The Hebrew word for looking glass or mirror has not been altered that much through the years. 

OT:4759 mar'ah (mar-aw'); feminine of OT:4758; a vision; also (causatively) a mirror: KJV - looking glass, vision.

This is the same word that is translated as "vision" in a number of places such as here:

Ezek 8:3  And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions (mar'ah) of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

Job 38:30-34  The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

How did the wise men know that the King of the Jews had been born? I may be getting way off the subject of what you were actually inquiring about so I'll stop for now. Interesting topic SinnerSaved.
 

 

[Reinitin]

I saw a lecture on it at glen rose creation evidence museum. I think he has some video teachings on it. He used science and the word and the hebrew. Im not real science savvy so when hes talking about water on the periodic table and adams and charges and tell how a canopy of water surrounded the earth i don't understand it well enough to relay it. 

 

[Retrobyter]

On March 31, 2016 at 5:55 PM, SINNERSAVED said:

I started reading my bible and went to the beginning , in the book of genesis , and God is saying let us separate the waters  under the firmament, and above the firmament, and above it will be called heaven , and the waters below are called the waters of the earth ,

 I never under stood the word , firmament,? and picked up another bible, and its calls it a Dome, ? what does that mean ?

 in genesis  chapter # 1, verses 6,7,8,9. psalms 150 :1, Ezekiel 1,22,23.,24,25,26.  &10;1 and Daniel 12 ;3 has that word firmament, or talks about this?

 what does that mean , are we in a fish bowl ? is the blue skies , really water ? heavens floor ?

 if anyone can help me out ,to see what are they talking about, that be great ,

 thank you and blessings,

Shabbat shalom, SINNERSAVED.

It's important to read the Scriptures correctly, and I would recommend the KJV simply for its adherence to the original wording of the text in the translation process.

Genesis 1:1-10
1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV

Gen. 1:1 is a topic heading. It's like the main point (I.) in an outline before going into the details under that point (A., B., C., ...). The Hebrew word for "the Heaven" in verse 1 is "hashaamayim," spelled hei-(patach)-shin-(qamets)-mem-(patach)-yod-(chireq)-mem-sofit, and the word for "the earth" is "haa'aarets," spelled hei-(qamets)-alef-(qamets)-reish-(segol)-tsaddai-sofit. (The parentheses are around the vowel pointing, and the "-sofit" means the ending form of the letter.)

The word "hashaamayim" is the SAME WORD (without the definite article "ha-") used again in verse 8. And, the word "haa'aarets" is the SAME WORD (without the definite article "haa-") used again in verse 10. Thus, verses 2 through 10 are the PARTICULARS for HOW and WHEN God created these two things!

MorningGlory is correct regarding the word "firmament," the English translation of the Hebrew word "raaqiya`," spelled reish-(qamets)-qof-(chireq)-yod-(patach)-`ayin. It is said to mean "an expanse" or a "stretching out." The only things that "expand" or "stretch out" as such are GASES! And, as MorningGlory's quotation explained, it referred to "the atmosphere and the clouds and in which the stars appear to be placed."

However, there are two points I'd like one to consider: First, "the clouds" didn't exist before the Flood.

Genesis 2:4-6
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens (same words, by the way),
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
KJV

This is why the Flood took all the inhabitants of the earth by surprise! It had NEVER RAINED BEFORE!

Second, the LIGHTS that God created He placed in the expanse of gases. One must be careful to see that the words "sun" (Hebrew: shemesh) and "moon" (Hebrew: yaree'ach) are NOT USED regarding day 4. They were simply called the "greater light" and the "lesser light." Thus, the light RAYS OF ENERGY were placed in the expanse, not the objects.

Thus, the expanse is just "the atmosphere in which the stars appear to be placed." Furthermore, this expanse was given a name by God Himself and the name was "haashaamayim."

In the same way, the dry land was given a name by God Himself, "haa'aarets." Both words are the names of PHYSICAL OBJECTS!

[Kan]

A review of the term "waters" in the Bible, in the plural rather than singular, shows that some of the references are not particularly related to H2O, if not related at all. 

There are waters which have been stretched out, others gathered, some above the heavens and stars, and others on which the earth has been founded.

Some cause earthquakes, some cause the clouds to drop rain and produce lightning, and so forth. 

On more than one occasion, God talks about them directly to Job.

God shows that "the waters" are associated with all of the creation that we are capable of seeing, from animal behavior to the weather, and even the stars. But He also states that they cannot be seen or perceived. Job 38:30 "The waters are hid as a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen" In one place God has made a promise based on the fact that no one can actually discover them by physical means.

In Job God makes it plain that the "waters" on their own are deadly to mankind, hence the impossibility of discovering them. Job 38: 17,18.

In the middle of a dozen or more examples in nature, God gives the answers of what He is talking about to Job, and how He uses these created elements to maintain nature. Including the habits of animals, their mating seasons, the way they feed and migrate around the earth etc.

Job's friends were also generally aware of a few things Job was told. No doubt they would have been known and talked about at the time by wise men such as Job.

They also discussed things like "the light" and "the bright cloud" etc.

These elements are no mystery to the Bible student, because they are introduced in the very beginning of creation before any material was seen or perceived by any creature.

Without a basic knowledge of what these elements are, many of the texts concerning them will be inconsistent and mysterious. 

To attempt to explain them with common science, is futile, as can be deducted by the theories creation scientists have put forward. 

For example, the canopy of water (H20) around the earth in the sky is one of them. And water above the stars. 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

Your conclusion here is wrong.

The events that occure on day 4 are unusally long, the reason being is its concern to the functions of sun, moon and stars.

What you fail to take into account when Moses wrote Genesis is the dominance of these entities (sun , moon and stars) in the pantheon of Israels neighbors.

Light on day 1 was turned over to the sun, moon and stars that they may regulate day and night, seasons, time and signs, they were reduced to being managers which underscores their serving status to God for God and in accordance with God. This is important to note.

The reason yareakh and shemesh is omitted from Gen 1:16 is due to a conscious avoidence of these names that were also given to the respective deities in the pantheon of Israel's neighbor's. Infact this is further highlighted by the way stars is introduced in Gen 1:16 as being a mere after thought, clearly denying any metaphysical role.

Day 4 is an attempt to de-emphasis entities that were being worshipped.

Proof of this is found in names of canaanite cites like Beth-shemesh (house of the sun) and Jericho (Moon)

This is why we see in the Genesis creation account the contrast of light of God vs the light of the celestrial bodies, its this very communication God is speaking to his people surrounded by a sea of pagan worshipers.

This is why they were simply called greater and lesser light and has absolutly nothing to do with the faulty premise of your water canopy theory.

Lastly
The first word "Bereshith" ( In the beginning) begins with the Hebrew letter B (bet).

Bet means "house" for example  Bethlehem - house of bread. 

We gain the immediate insight that the universe is a house to be inhabited. The verb "created" in verse one has two objects, "the heavens" (universe) and "the earth." The universe is a house, a dwelling not just our earth.

 

Shabbat shalom, inChrist.

Sorry, but it's YOUR conclusion that is wrong. Why do you have to resort to the "day-age theory" that seeks to accommodate the theory of macro-Evolution and the cosmology of the fools, who say "There is no God?" Read it again:

Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
KJV

Exodus 31:15-17
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
KJV

You said, "The reason yareakh and shemesh is omitted from Gen 1:16 is due to a conscious avoidence of these names that were also given to the respective deities in the pantheon of Israel's neighbor's. Infact this is further highlighted by the way stars is introduced in Gen 1:16 as being a mere after thought, clearly denying any metaphysical role." Which means that God could have done EXACTLY the same thing He did with "yaree'ach" ("moon") and "shemesh" ("sun") as He did with "kokhaviym" ("stars"), giving them lesser importance and "denying any metaphysical role!"

When are you and Kan going to get it through your heads that the Creation account in Genesis 1 and 2 is "the LORD made the skies and the ground, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day"? It's not about the "Universe"; it's about this planet's BIOSPHERE - WHERE WE HUMANS LIVE!

And, please don't assume to lecture me about Hebrew. The "B-" in "B-reeshiyt," spelled simply "bet-(sheva)," means "IN!" The "Beit," spelled "bet-(tsere)-tav," in "Beit-Lechem" means "HOUSE." They are NOT THE SAME WORD! It would be like saying in English that "to" and "top" are the same!

And, as an aside note, it's "yaree'ach," not "yareakh." The first transliteration gives the proper ending letter as "cheit," NOT "khaf-sofit," and doesn't forget the "alef" in the middle! Yeah, "picky," I know, but why would you choose to be "picky" about other matters and ignore the Hebrew?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Kan said:

A review of the term "waters" in the Bible, in the plural rather than singular, shows that some of the references are not particularly related to H2O, if not related at all. 

There are waters which have been stretched out, others gathered, some above the heavens and stars, and others on which the earth has been founded.

Some cause earthquakes, some cause the clouds to drop rain and produce lightning, and so forth. 

On more than one occasion, God talks about them directly to Job.

God shows that "the waters" are associated with all of the creation that we are capable of seeing, from animal behavior to the weather, and even the stars. But He also states that they cannot be seen or perceived. Job 38:30 "The waters are hid as a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen" In one place God has made a promise based on the fact that no one can actually discover them by physical means.

In Job God makes it plain that the "waters" on their own are deadly to mankind, hence the impossibility of discovering them. Job 38: 17,18.

In the middle of a dozen or more examples in nature, God gives the answers of what He is talking about to Job, and how He uses these created elements to maintain nature. Including the habits of animals, their mating seasons, the way they feed and migrate around the earth etc.

Job's friends were also generally aware of a few things Job was told. No doubt they would have been known and talked about at the time by wise men such as Job.

They also discussed things like "the light" and "the bright cloud" etc.

These elements are no mystery to the Bible student, because they are introduced in the very beginning of creation before any material was seen or perceived by any creature.

Without a basic knowledge of what these elements are, many of the texts concerning them will be inconsistent and mysterious. 

To attempt to explain them with common science, is futile, as can be deducted by the theories creation scientists have put forward. 

For example, the canopy of water (H20) around the earth in the sky is one of them. And water above the stars. 

Shabbat shalom, Kan.

Okay, it's your turn: The English term "the waters" is plural, because the Hebrew term "hamaayim," spelled "hei-(patach)-mem-(qamets)-yod-(chireq)-mem," is dual, and English doesn't have a "dual" number. We only have "singular" and "plural." Hebrew has "singular," "dual," and "plural." The "dual" number is usually reserved for things that come in pairs, such as "shoes" or body parts such as "eyes."

The first mention of "hamaayim" is in Genesis 1:2, over which the Ruwach, or the Wind, of God "moved" or "brooded" (Hebrew: mrachefet) "The waters" are "the waters," and if you think the context of a particular text says otherwise, then I would suggest you re-read the passage until you understand the context, OR even better, LEARN HEBREW! And, don't learn just the vocabulary (which is the error of most Bible-believing, English-speaking theologians) but the actual grammar, as well! One doesn't understand what the Hebrew words meant in the passage because he doesn't know the language!

Let's just look at the context of Job 38, and see how it was intended to be understood: (I'm going to use the NIV here for clarity in the English language.)

Job 38:16-30
16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep? 

Have you visited the sources of the sea? Of course not.
Have you walked in the trenches of the ocean? Of course not.

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death? 
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this. 

The answer is again, "Of course not!" However, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with water!

19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside? 
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings? 
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years! 

What road does one take to the residence of "light?" Where does "darkness" live? Can you take them to their homes? Do you know the roads to their houses? And, of course, the answers are "I DON'T KNOW" and "NO."

22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail, 
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle? 

Yeah, right! "Storehouses." They couldn't have entered them because they don't exist! Have you noticed that those "storehouses" - the dark clouds - diminish and disappear, giving way to less-threatening, white clouds, if not a bright, sunny day? He's telling the listeners that there AREN'T ANY! He makes snow and hail as He needs them!

24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth? 

Again, HOW is the lightning dispersed? Where does it go after it strikes? Is there a road to that place? Of course not! The electrons are dispersed to the various molecules and atoms that surround the strike zone, diminishing the charge difference and balancing the charges!

Where do the east winds come from? IS there such a place? Of course not! Shlomoh (Solomon), the wisest man in his day, said,

Ecclesiastes 1:6
6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
KJV

And, we can attest to this wisdom in the weather information that we can glean today from satellites and weather history that we've recorded. We call such "circuits" "low pressure" and "high pressure" systems, today.

25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm, 
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it, 
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass? 

A "channel" in Israel is called a "wadi." Who cuts the wadiym? Who makes a path for the thunderstorm? Answer: NO ONE does!

28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew? 

The Hebrew word for "father" is "aV." (The "V" is a "vet," an undotted "bet.") It is also translated as "source." For instance, the name "Avigayil" or ("Abigail") means "my source (father) of joy." Again, the answer is "NO!" Who fathers the drops of dew on the blades of grass each morning? NO ONE does!

29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens 
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?"
NIV

From what "womb" or "uterus" does the ice come from? Who gives birth to the frost from the skies when the waters become hard as stone (ice), when the SURFACE of the deep is frozen (i.e., when a lake freezes over)? The answer again is: NO ONE does!

All of this is talking about WEATHER WISDOM! Don't make this harder than it is! You've blown these Scripture verses WAY out of proportion!

[JohnD]

Back to the OP topic.

The Earth was created originally with a vapor canopy consisting of water.

To this day Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, and Uranus all have vapor canopies of varying consistencies. 

The water from the great flood came in part from this canopy (the action of which may have boiled the surface of the Earth as well as flooded it) and great fissures opened as the Earth's crust split expelling water from subterranean vaults (continental plates may or may not have slid on this†) 

† two theories prevail about "Pangia" the one world continent

• the continents split and slide as the water left the vaults
• the earth grew in size splitting apart at the continental faullines

The collapsing ocean bottoms and elevation of tectonic plates (resulting in post flood mountain ranges etc) put sea level (global flood average) at present. Also the ice caps have locked away some of that enormous amount of water transference.

 

[other one]

I know two people with Doctorate degrees in Hebrew that will explain to you in great detail that if you take the writings in the Bible literally you will end up with the flat earth theory.....       So I would be kind of careful in deciding exactly what was going on literally from the Bible.....    

And I might add that neither of them are Flat Earth believers.