the scripture of Genesis Water above, and water below the heavens ?

[Retrobyter]

 

You're not standing on the horizon when you're 100,000 feet above it.

Please explain to me why the horizon remains a straight line no matter how high you go instead of quoting the trigonometry of a ball Earth that does not exist. Its a simple question. On a sphere the horizon would eventually drop and you would see a curve. That's plain enough for anybody to understand. You are using complicated mathematics that is not necessary. And get that ball out of your head.... I understand that it's not easy to de-program a brainwashed head, it was hard for me too. But try it and don't let your fears conquer you.

Shabbat shalom, OakWood.

No, but 100,000 feet is NOT ENOUGH TO SEE A DIFFERENCE! Yes, it's a simple question, but it's based on a faulty assumption! You have ASSUMED that "the horizon remains a straight line no matter how high you go" is true! It's the "no matter how high you go" part that trips you up! Try something closer to 100,000,000 feet and you will find your difference! You've seen the pictures for "over 20 miles" and below, but you REJECT the pictures above that because they are (in your opinion) "conspiracy to deceive!"

It's not "complicated mathematics!" It's simple trigonometry! You DO know trigonometry, don't you? It's usually taught after geometry and algebra and before calculus and statics.

Sorry, but I DO see that "it's not easy to de-program a brainwashed head." However, just whose "head" is "brainwashed?"

[Retrobyter]

 

If 100,000 feet up is nothing in relation to the Earth then all the claims about the curvature being seen at 100,000 feet are also irrelevant. Whenever people point out that they have seen photos showing the curvature of the Earth at 100,000 feet or less, then their claims are invalid because according to you, it's not high enough to be relevant.

You can't have it both ways. It's astonishing how people will back-pedal when confronted with this argument. They'll say that they have been in aeroplanes and have seen the curvature of the Earth and civilian aeroplanes don't fly above 40,000 feet, but when I claim that the horizon is flat even at 100,000, suddenly 100,000 ft.. becomes too low to see any curvature. Make your mind up - your globe-Earth argument is crumbling.....

Shalom, OakWood.

I'm with hmbld on this one. What you are not seeing is that the curvature of the earth's surface is NOT seen in the bending of the horizon! It's rather seen in how the surface of the earth BULGES below you and how the fields and distinguishable features on the earth below you distance themselves from you as you look closer to the horizon, far more than one would expect if the earth were flat. THAT'S where the "curvature" lies.

But really, 100,000 feet, which is less than 20 miles, is not nearly enough to see a visible difference, especially if one is determined NOT to see one. HOWEVER, IF you could experience it for yourself or trust in a stereograph taken by a professional without an agenda, you MIGHT just be able to see what we're talking about. Until then, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

[OakWood]

 

Sounds good, but I have not seen where you have shown an example that supports your case.  The suns rays must not travel very far if it spirals and can't shine on the entire flat disc at the same time.  Yes, I did already search Google for it, and tried to put myself in the position of what if I never heard it was a globe, and none of it fits together.  So, I am asking for only one example that supports your case, not two or three.  

The Sun is not very far away. It is much smaller than we are told. It is on the ceiling above us (the firmament) and shines like a spotlight. As for not imagining the Earth as a globe, well it's what the Ancients did for thousands of years and there was no problem. If you want to understand a Flat Earth model of the Sun then go to YouTube and look for videos by Rob Skiba, Mark Sargent or the YouTube user 'Flat Water'. Rob Skiba is a Christian, Mark Sargent is an agnostic I believe, and I think 'Flat Water' is a Christian too. But I tell you this so that you understand that there is not necessarily any religious bias here.

[OakWood]

 

Shalom, OakWood.

I'm with hmbld on this one. What you are not seeing is that the curvature of the earth's surface is NOT seen in the bending of the horizon! It's rather seen in how the surface of the earth BULGES below you and how the fields and distinguishable features on the earth below you distance themselves from you as you look closer to the horizon, far more than one would expect if the earth were flat. THAT'S where the "curvature" lies.

But really, 100,000 feet, which is less than 20 miles, is not nearly enough to see a visible difference, especially if one is determined NOT to see one. HOWEVER, IF you could experience it for yourself or trust in a stereograph taken by a professional without an agenda, you MIGHT just be able to see what we're talking about. Until then, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Oh dear, you just don't get it do you? I've already told you that if the Earth was a globe then the horizon would not be straight and would fall below your eye level. Do the maths based upon how big you think the circumference of the Earth is. People are supposed to see ships sink below the horizon of this so-called globe Earth yet at twenty miles above it you are now claiming that you would not see a difference.

You make it sound like I'm making this all up as if it's my own wild fantasy while thousands of scientists worldwide are now jumping on the Flat Earth wagon and agreeing with it.

As for me thinking that I'm convinced against my own will, do you think I'm some sort of idiot? I too believed in the globe Earth at one time, it took hours of research for me to buy into the Flat Earth model. I too mocked it like you do, but then I began to understand that science and truth did not favour the globe model. It is you that is being stubborn and close-minded. How  dare you suggest that I refuse to see? I actually resisted the Flat Earth theory because I believed it to be crazy, just as you do. Do you think I was born yesterday?

As for agendas, there are no agendas with the Flat Earth, but there are plenty of agendas with the globe Earth. It's the heliocentric model that destroyed belief in God with its almost infinite universe, and of course the ridiculous Big Bang theory.

Nobody can gain anything from believing in a Flat Earth, in fact they face ridicule for doing so. The only thing I'm concerned about is the truth. The truth is obviously something that you are not concerned about otherwise you would look for it.

[Kan]

 

Shabbat shalom, Kan.

Okay, let's look at the whole chapter (which is only part of God's speech):

....

So, please understand that this chapter really IS talking about the "Flood!"

It sounds like the flood, but it isn't. What have the foundations of the earth got to do with Orion? Since when did the oceans come from one place, as if born out of a womb? It's not drinking water that God is talking about, but the waters found in creation, before the appearance of the earth, and named so by God. The waters that be above the heavens as well. Another example, What have the "gates of death" got to do with what is underneath and the expanse of the earth? It's interesting, or just poetry? The NIV makes it more palatable for modern man, and in the same stroke removes all the essential clues. 

There are too many saying in these sentences which sound ridiculous unless you know what God is talking about. One way to find out is to listen to what Job and his friends talk about in the previous 37 chapters. It is ancient science, of which practically no one has any knowledge of today.

[Retrobyter]

 

It sounds like the flood, but it isn't. What have the foundations of the earth got to do with Orion? Since when did the oceans come from one place, as if born out of a womb? It's not drinking water that God is talking about, but the waters found in creation, before the appearance of the earth, and named so by God. The waters that be above the heavens as well. Another example, What have the "gates of death" got to do with what is underneath and the expanse of the earth? It's interesting, or just poetry? The NIV makes it more palatable for modern man, and in the same stroke removes all the essential clues. 

There are too many saying in these sentences which sound ridiculous unless you know what God is talking about. One way to find out is to listen to what Job and his friends talk about in the previous 37 chapters. It is ancient science, of which practically no one has any knowledge of today.

Shalom, Kan.

Yeah, it may SOUND like the one has nothing to do with the other, but really the foundations of the earth and Orion ARE related! They are related by WATER and the INUNDATION of water! As I've already mentioned, establishing the foundations of the ground (the earth, haa'aarets) after the inundation of water for that year of the Flood was based upon SEDIMENTS and SINKING its foundations into ... what? MOLTEN ROCK, that's what! VOLCANISM!

The Pleiades (the "Seven Sisters" in Greek mythology), followed by Taurus the bull, followed by Orion were WINTER constellations, the time of Israel's RAINY season! Having whole lands, whole countries, around them given to the deserts and having the Negev just south of Jerusalem a few miles, the rainy season in Israel is what keeps it GREEN!

Israeli has two seasons: winter (late Oct to mid-Mar), which is cool to cold and when the rains occur, and summer (Apr–Oct), which is warm to hot and virtually rain-free. Winter in Israel starts with showers in October and advances to periodic heavy rainfall from November to March. Swimming is out in the Mediterranean during this time, except during occasional heat waves, although at times you can swim in Eilat and the Dead Sea in the winter. The Israeli winter doesn’t normally involve snow, except for on Mount Hermon on the Golan Heights.

Read more: http://www.frommers.com/destinations/israel/253110#ixzz45QxAwaPm.

(Just as an aside note, while Israeli winter doesn't NORMALLY involve snow, it CAN snow from time to time in Jerusalem when the conditions are right. Jerusalem IS positioned on mountain peaks, after all. That's why it is commonly said in the Scriptures, "they went UP to Jerusalem", i.e., "they made ALIYAH!"

Isaiah 2:3
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
KJV)

How to see the Pleiades. If you’re familiar with the famous constellation Orion, it can help you be sure you’ve found the Pleiades. The image at right shows Orion at the bottom left. See the three stars in a row? That’s Orion’s Belt. Draw a line through the three stars of Orion’s Belt to the right – and you come to a V-shaped pattern of stars with a bright star in its midst. The V-shaped pattern is the Face of Taurus the Bull. The bright star in the V – called Aldebaran – depicts the Bull’s Eye. A bit past Aldebaran, you’ll see the Pleiades cluster, which marks the Bull’s Shoulder. In our image, the Pleiades cluster is at the top right.

Aldebaran, Arabic for follower, is thought to be in reference to this star forever chasing the Pleiades across the heavens. As a general rule, the Pleiades cluster rises into the eastern sky before Aldebaran rises, and sets in the west before Aldebaran sets. The only exception to this rule happens at far southern latitudes – like at South America’s Tierra del Fuego – where the Pleiades rise a short while after Aldebaran rises.

In our Northern Hemispheres skies, the Pleiades cluster is associated with the winter season. It’s easy to imagine this misty patch of icy-blue suns as hoarfrost clinging to the dome of night. Frosty November is often called the month of the Pleiades, because it’s at this time that the Pleiades shine from dusk until dawn. But you can see the Pleiades cluster in the evening sky well into April.

To see the image and read more: Go to earthsky.org/favorite-star-patterns/pleiades-star-cluster-enjoys-worldwide-renown.

As far as the ocean being "the gates of Sh'owl," just how many deaths do you think they had because of storms on the Mediterranean? It's not that hard. The underlying theme of the entire chapter is WATER, it's affects, and the devastation and death caused by too much of it! Don't make this harder than it is.

[Retrobyter]

 

Oh dear, you just don't get it do you? I've already told you that if the Earth was a globe then the horizon would not be straight and would fall below your eye level. Do the maths based upon how big you think the circumference of the Earth is. People are supposed to see ships sink below the horizon of this so-called globe Earth yet at twenty miles above it you are now claiming that you would not see a difference.

You make it sound like I'm making this all up as if it's my own wild fantasy while thousands of scientists worldwide are now jumping on the Flat Earth wagon and agreeing with it.

As for me thinking that I'm convinced against my own will, do you think I'm some sort of idiot? I too believed in the globe Earth at one time, it took hours of research for me to buy into the Flat Earth model. I too mocked it like you do, but then I began to understand that science and truth did not favour the globe model. It is you that is being stubborn and close-minded. How  dare you suggest that I refuse to see? I actually resisted the Flat Earth theory because I believed it to be crazy, just as you do. Do you think I was born yesterday?

As for agendas, there are no agendas with the Flat Earth, but there are plenty of agendas with the globe Earth. It's the heliocentric model that destroyed belief in God with its almost infinite universe, and of course the ridiculous Big Bang theory.

Nobody can gain anything from believing in a Flat Earth, in fact they face ridicule for doing so. The only thing I'm concerned about is the truth. The truth is obviously something that you are not concerned about otherwise you would look for it.

Shalom, OakWood.

Yeah, I get it; I just don't get YOU! And, I've already told you that if the Earth is a globe, then the horizon WOULD be straight and NOT fall below your eye level until you were SIGNIFICANTLY above the earth, like in the THOUSANDS of miles, not the TENS! You've attributed to the global earth position "facts" that AREN'T TRUE! I've DONE the "maths," and you scratched your head!

With a telescope at 20 miles above the surface of the earth, you would STILL see the ships sink below the horizon, just as you would standing on the beach! You'd just see it happen about 400 miles away, instead of only 3 miles away (hence, the need for a telescope)!

If "thousands of scientists worldwide are jumping on the Flat Earth wagon," then I believe that TENS of thousands are jumping off!

Do I think you're some sort of idiot? Definitely not. Do I think you were born yesterday, probably not; however, you were DUPED yesterday. Somewhere in your "hours of research," you took a wrong turn that left you rudderless and unsure of yourself in the debate. You were open and susceptible to the arguments for the flat earth, and you gravitated to that position.

Don't tell me that the Flat Earth camp doesn't have agendas. That's just a falsehood. EVERY human being has his/her reasons for saying or believing something. THAT IS his or her agenda! 

It is neither the heliocentric model of the solar system nor is it the global earth model (and they are NOT the same thing) that only has agendas and destroyed belief in God! Belief in God was jeopardized by the philosophy of humanism that culminated in the hypothesis of Evolution (it is NOT a "theory" by definition). Macro-evolutionary thought has invaded cosmology and created the Big Bang hypothesis. The huge universe only SUPPORTS a Great and Awesome God!

I am COMPLETELY interested in the truth, but I know that God's truth does NOT contradict God's laws, not even the physical ones. Therefore, the truth about our earth, our solar system, and the universe will adhere to the wonderful "Queen of the Sciences," mathematics.

[OakWood]

 

Shalom, OakWood.

Yeah, I get it; I just don't get YOU! And, I've already told you that if the Earth is a globe, then the horizon WOULD be straight and NOT fall below your eye level until you were SIGNIFICANTLY above the earth, like in the THOUSANDS of miles, not the TENS! You've attributed to the global earth position "facts" that AREN'T TRUE! I've DONE the "maths," and you scratched your head!

With a telescope at 20 miles above the surface of the earth, you would STILL see the ships sink below the horizon, just as you would standing on the beach! You'd just see it happen about 400 miles away, instead of only 3 miles away (hence, the need for a telescope)!

If "thousands of scientists worldwide are jumping on the Flat Earth wagon," then I believe that TENS of thousands are jumping off!

Do I think you're some sort of idiot? Definitely not. Do I think you were born yesterday, probably not; however, you were DUPED yesterday. Somewhere in your "hours of research," you took a wrong turn that left you rudderless and unsure of yourself in the debate. You were open and susceptible to the arguments for the flat earth, and you gravitated to that position.

Don't tell me that the Flat Earth camp doesn't have agendas. That's just a falsehood. EVERY human being has his/her reasons for saying or believing something. THAT IS his or her agenda! 

It is neither the heliocentric model of the solar system nor is it the global earth model (and they are NOT the same thing) that only has agendas and destroyed belief in God! Belief in God was jeopardized by the philosophy of humanism that culminated in the hypothesis of Evolution (it is NOT a "theory" by definition). Macro-evolutionary thought has invaded cosmology and created the Big Bang hypothesis. The huge universe only SUPPORTS a Great and Awesome God!

I am COMPLETELY interested in the truth, but I know that God's truth does NOT contradict God's laws, not even the physical ones. Therefore, the truth about our earth, our solar system, and the universe will adhere to the wonderful "Queen of the Sciences," mathematics.

Even if the horizon does not fall because you aren't high enough to see it.... it would remain stationary. But it actually RISES - think about it. Even if you are not high enough to see the difference because the difference is so small, you would not expect the complete opposite to happen.

You are being duped by Satan's heliocentric model, not because you're a bad christian but because you are having more faith in the globe model than you should be.

The Earth is NOT a globe - whether it's a flat disc or a square, or a triangle, it is NOT a spinning globe. You are trying to make the globe model fit in with God's word and it just does not do that.

[Kan]

On 4/10/2016 at 0:50 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Kan.

Yeah, it may SOUND like the one has nothing to do with the other, but really the foundations of the earth and Orion ARE related! They are related by WATER and the INUNDATION of water! As I've already mentioned, establishing the foundations of the ground (the earth, haa'aarets) after the inundation of water for that year of the Flood was based upon SEDIMENTS and SINKING its foundations into ... what? MOLTEN ROCK, that's what! VOLCANISM!

The Pleiades (the "Seven Sisters" in Greek mythology), followed by Taurus the bull, followed by Orion were WINTER constellations, the time of Israel's RAINY season! Having whole lands, whole countries, around them given to the deserts and having the Negev just south of Jerusalem a few miles, the rainy season in Israel is what keeps it GREEN!

Israeli has two seasons: ....

How to see the Pleiades. If you’re familiar with the famous constellation Orion, ...the Pleiades cluster is associated with the winter season. It’s easy to imagine this misty patch of icy-blue suns as hoarfrost clinging to the dome of night. Frosty November is often called the month of the Pleiades, because it’s at this time that the Pleiades shine from dusk until dawn. But you can see the Pleiades cluster in the evening sky well into April.

As far as the ocean being "the gates of Sh'owl," just how many deaths do you think they had because of storms on the Mediterranean? It's not that hard. The underlying theme of the entire chapter is WATER, it's affects, and the devastation and death caused by too much of it! Don't make this harder than it is.

I enjoyed reading this post, it is interesting and has thorough answers, thank you. I'll try to keep my comments more on target with the topic.

[Retrobyter]

On April 11, 2016 at 0:39 AM, OakWood said:

Even if the horizon does not fall because you aren't high enough to see it.... it would remain stationary. But it actually RISES - think about it. Even if you are not high enough to see the difference because the difference is so small, you would not expect the complete opposite to happen.

You are being duped by Satan's heliocentric model, not because you're a bad christian but because you are having more faith in the globe model than you should be.

The Earth is NOT a globe - whether it's a flat disc or a square, or a triangle, it is NOT a spinning globe. You are trying to make the globe model fit in with God's word and it just does not do that.

Actually, it does! Remember these words?

Psalm 103:12
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
KJV

In a flat earth, that is a LIMITED distance. In a global earth, that is an INFINITE distance, because you can go east forever and you can go west forever! I'd say that agrees with how far God has removed our transgressions from us, wouldn't you? Notice that He did NOT say as far as the north is from the south! I wonder why not? (Actually, I don't.)

How about this promise?

Genesis 8:20-22
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
KJV

How are all these conditions addressed in a flat earth? On a global earth, day and night are happening at the same time! The part of the earth that is enlightened by the sun is experiencing "day." The part of the earth that is NOT so enlightened is experiencing "night."

On a global earth, summer and winter are happening at the same time. The northern hemisphere has its summer while the southern hemisphere has its winter, and vice versa.

On a global earth, spring (seedtime) and autumn (harvest) happen at the same time, again, the northern hemisphere has its spring when the southern hemisphere has its autumn, and vice versa. Indeed, our trade with other countries give us the opportunity to have certain fruits and vegetables relatively cheaply throughout the year. While some things can be grown in a greenhouse, other things are harder to grow without natural conditions.

On a global earth, cold and heat are happening at the same time. The poles, the North pole and the South pole, ALWAYS experience "cold." The equatorial region ALWAYS experiences "heat!" Indeed, how do you explain northern Alaska (above the Arctic Circle) having a SOLID 24 hours of "day" during the summer, or a SOLID 24 hours of "night" during the winter? The sun runs around the horizon all the way around when it can be seen during the summer! And, if you refer to the map with the north pole in the center of the flat earth, How is it that portions of Antarctica experience the same long days and nights?

It may not be forthright, but a spherical earth IS there!