A REVELATION FOR ATHIESTS

[LuftWaffle]

4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Disagree all you want, the Bible is full of warnings and reminders that those who deny God will not be saved. The majority of non-believers I have met and know are not Bible literate, in fact one of my closest friends often tells me and those around us at the time that he does not believe in God at all, and says when he dies there will be nothing at all, just death, the end, all over! So are you suggesting I say; "No worries mate, all will be good, you have nothing to worry about?" Nothing I say or do will ever convince him any differently.

Jesus plainly and clearly stated in; Matt. 10:33, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

So as not to be seen as ungracious and insensitive as you put it, toward my friend and other un - believers, your suggesting I remain quiet about God and His word? I have had dozens of them laugh, mock, poke fun at and ridicule much of what I have revealed to them regarding God and yet, a few have turned.

Sure God is loving, kind, merciful, and long suffering, but to remain a non - believer until death and on  judgment day it will be too late for them to have a change of heart. I don't want to be around when God separates them from His faithful believers and have Him tell me, WHY DID YOU NOT TELL THEM."

4 X 4. Four wheel drive vehicles. Traveling across unexplored territory, no roads, bridges, directional signage just maps of the territory in general. Hunting, fishing and surviving without outside assistance.

It seems you're responding to a point I'm not making. Let me try and be as clear as possible: Speaking the truth and being kind and gratious are not mutually exclusive. You can and should actually try and be both.

Nobody is suggesting that you become inclusivist or silent, but rather that you continue to speak the truth, but try and do it in a way that doesn't appear like you're just trying to stick it to the atheists. And if you've had dozen of atheists laugh and poke fun, join the club, we've all had that and we've all lost our cool too.

Oh, 4 x 4'ing, ok. I enjoy the outdoors myself. Actually hoping to go camping and carp fishing in the next month or so. I live in South Africa, so winter is approaching but it's still nice outside. What sort of fishing to you do? Fly fishing? Bass?

 

[Bonky]

Hazard:

 

I guess I consider myself an agnostic atheist and I'm not sure I quite qualify for the type of person your OP is referring to.   That being said, I've been around long enough to know that many many many Bible verses have been misused and/or quoted out of context by both believers and non-believers.   If you approach a non-believer who is remotely versed in logic and philosophy and tell them deep down they know there's a God and they just don't admit it, you're probably not going to entice them into a deeper discussion.

I get the impression that many folks think "atheist" means someone who says there are no gods and they're sure of that.  That definition may be true for a few but it's not the majority of non-believers, at least not in my experience.  How can we be sure about something that is not well defined, if exists is beyond our grasp etc?

As a non-believer, I consider how many times in human history we have come across a mystery and we were so sure that there MUST be a supernatural explanation, only to find out later that we were wrong.  Why is it so impossible that we're not in the same boat right now with explaining our Universe?   My honest feeling is that there could be all kinds of bizarre explanations for why we're here.  I acknowledge that a creator God could be one explanation, I just disagree that it's the only possible one.  So when someone comes to me and essentially says "You really believe in God you just won't admit it", I can be pretty sure that this person isn't on the right track with the greatest question facing humanity.

[HAZARD]

6 hours ago, Bonky said:

Hazard:

 

I guess I consider myself an agnostic atheist and I'm not sure I quite qualify for the type of person your OP is referring to.   That being said, I've been around long enough to know that many many many Bible verses have been misused and/or quoted out of context by both believers and non-believers.   If you approach a non-believer who is remotely versed in logic and philosophy and tell them deep down they know there's a God and they just don't admit it, you're probably not going to entice them into a deeper discussion.

I get the impression that many folks think "atheist" means someone who says there are no gods and they're sure of that.  That definition may be true for a few but it's not the majority of non-believers, at least not in my experience.  How can we be sure about something that is not well defined, if exists is beyond our grasp etc?

As a non-believer, I consider how many times in human history we have come across a mystery and we were so sure that there MUST be a supernatural explanation, only to find out later that we were wrong.  Why is it so impossible that we're not in the same boat right now with explaining our Universe?   My honest feeling is that there could be all kinds of bizarre explanations for why we're here.  I acknowledge that a creator God could be one explanation, I just disagree that it's the only possible one.  So when someone comes to me and essentially says "You really believe in God you just won't admit it", I can be pretty sure that this person isn't on the right track with the greatest question facing humanity.

Hi Bonky.

I believe everyone has a natural deep desire to know, to understand why were here and where we will end up after death. if one truly investigates the Word of God one finds over 130 declarations of God, revealing that He is God, and the only true God, in Psalms 93:9-11; Isa.40:12-31; 41:13-21; 44:6-8; 54:12-22; and, 3808 times expressions as "Thus sayeth the lord." and "The Lord spake" and others show Him to be the author of the Bible Many times God declares Himself to be the creator of the worlds (Gen.1:1-2:25; Job 12:7-25; 38:1-41; 34; Ps. 8:1-9; 19:1-6; 102:25-28; Isa. 45:18; John 1:1-3; Eph. 3:9; Rev. 4:10-11; 14:7; and from Hebrews 1:3 we learn that He not only created all things, but that all things are upheld by His great power.

The many manifestations of Gods great works, and His many personal acts prove His manifestations on various occasions as recorded in Scripture, also prove His existence and person (Gen. 1:1-2:25; 3:1-25; 11:1-9; Lev. 10:24; 2 Sam. 22:8-16; Job 38:1; 24; ps. 18:7-20; 78:12-16, 23-29, 43-66 etc.)

 

[HAZARD]

12 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

It seems you're responding to a point I'm not making. Let me try and be as clear as possible: Speaking the truth and being kind and gratious are not mutually exclusive. You can and should actually try and be both.

Nobody is suggesting that you become inclusivist or silent, but rather that you continue to speak the truth, but try and do it in a way that doesn't appear like you're just trying to stick it to the atheists. And if you've had dozen of atheists laugh and poke fun, join the club, we've all had that and we've all lost our cool too.

Oh, 4 x 4'ing, ok. I enjoy the outdoors myself. Actually hoping to go camping and carp fishing in the next month or so. I live in South Africa, so winter is approaching but it's still nice outside. What sort of fishing to you do? Fly fishing? Bass?

 

I own an ocean going boat and mostly fish the ocean.

Many, or I should say, most co - workers, friends upon whom I trust to keep me safe and I them in the coal mining industry are non believers and openly say so. When ever someone mentions God, without cursing, in general conversation, some ask me my thoughts on God which I give, and some respond with; "Anyone who believes God exists and in the fairy stories written in the Bible, Is a (curse word***Idiot.), and then I get for several days, "Here comes father Hazard, or pastor, or minister, even reverend,  I don't mind. What I relaying is they don't care, they will mostly react violently using filthy language, one even said in front of our whole crew; "God, if you exist prove it, I don't believe you do, but if you do come down here and strike me dead now!"

He stood there looking skyward, grinning then laughing while commenting; "See, I told you so, God does not exist."
 

Naturally God would not strike him dead for God knows if he does not repent he will pay for his arrogance toward Him. How do you think he will feel if he dies without repenting one day, and on judgment day?

This is what I am against here. If I am insulting them by saying sorry, God does exist, there are many proofs, think about what your saying, get hold of a Bible and read it with an honest heart, you many change your mind, then I will continue to insult them. They insult God every time they open their mouths.

This Scripture virtually says it all;

Romans 1:20-21, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.   Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

God means what He says when He says what He means, and He does not mince words, cares not if people feel insulted or annoyed by these Scriptures.

Matthew 10:33, But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

John. 20:29, "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Psalm 14:1, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." 

[LuftWaffle]

Hi Bonky,

Nice to see you again. I'd like to respond to two of your points if I may.

Quote

I get the impression that many folks think "atheist" means someone who says there are no gods and they're sure of that.  That definition may be true for a few but it's not the majority of non-believers, at least not in my experience.

There's actually a very good reason that many folks believe an atheist is someone who says that God doesn't exist. It's because classically that's precisely what an atheist was. It was only with the rise of the so-called New Atheists, around the turn of the century, that the term "atheist" was redefined as meaning "lacking belief in a god".

The Latin itself shows this clearly, Latin after all is used by law, medical professionals and scientists because it's a very expressive language. Now you, or a group of atheists, can of course stipulatively define "atheist" to mean anything you like, but then you can't blame people for using the lexical definition, which is actually the standard.
According to Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "'Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God"
According to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "Atheism is the view that there is no God."

The other thing is that many Christians, including myself, actually view the redefinition of "atheist" as somewhat disingenuous, because "lacking belief in a god" is an autobiographical statement that really says nothing, but it frees the atheist from any burden of proof. The atheist can now freely disagree with Christians, write blog posts, join atheist rallies, and even ridicule Christians, while never having to substantiate their beliefs because they can retreat to a position of "belief lacking" whenever it's convenient. In short it comes across as a sneaky loophole to avoid a burden of proof rather than a legitimate position.

Think about it this way: suppose Christians defined themselves as "lacking belief in a godless universe". "We're not making any claims, we simply lack belief."
Wouldn't atheists think that this is really just theism pulling a sneaky move to avoid having to justify theism? If nothing more, the autobiographical nature of the statement stifles discussion because it's impossible to disprove. It's like saying , "I feel lazy". How does one disprove such a claim?

Please don't think I'm questioning your intentions, rather I'm just hoping to clarify why many Christians view the redefinition of atheist as non-standard. Perhaps if you understand where we're coming from it'll alleviate some frustration.

Quote

As a non-believer, I consider how many times in human history we have come across a mystery and we were so sure that there MUST be a supernatural explanation, only to find out later that we were wrong.

I think one must be cautious when grouping disparate views into categories and then arguing against the category instead of the particular view. When you use the term "supernatural" it includes tribal gods, superstitions, pantheons of storm gods, ocean gods, volcano gods, faeries, dragons, ancestral spirits and a whole host of things that nobody here is actually promoting.

Christianity, through missions work, actually played a key role in dispelling pantheons, tribal gods and superstitions, so lumping all of that with what we believe in with that isn't entirely fair. You'll need to address our particular claim, which is the Judeo-Christian worldview not a general "supernaturalism".

So, lets looks at how many times in history Christianity's claims have been shown to be false by scientific discovery: how many do you know of off the top of your head?
You might think of "flat earth", but that's not a core Christian claim, it was actually an Aristotellian view that was wrongly adopted by the church. You might want to say Heliocentricity, but neither is that a core Christian claim, in fact Copernicus was himself a Christian and the bible no more claims heliocentricity than I do when I say, "sunrise" or "sunset".

Now we also need to look at how many times Christianity was right. In the 19th century and early 20th century most atheists believe the universe was eternal. This gave them a way out of having to explain its origin. Big Bang cosmology seems to side with Christianity that the universe has a beginning after all. Even Lawrence Krauss reckons if he had to bet, he'd bet the universe began to exist.

Christianity also claimed that all humans are related, and the Human Genome Project's findings are consistent with that view.

[Bonky]

Luftwaffle, technically I never referred to myself as an "atheist", I said I was an "agnostic atheist".  I don't believe there are any gods, but I also don't believe it's a question we can have confidence in one way or the other.   When engaging in a discussion like this with others I don't go looking at encyclopedias and lexical dictionaries to find out what they believe or should believe based on labels, I talk to them and find out.  When someone says they're a "Christian" I have about 10% confidence that I understand what they believe and that's probably a bit high.  

I also see no reason why we should force people to take dogmatic stances on various claims.  I find it rather smart to not do that.  For instance, many folks claim that aliens have visited them [even abducted them] and others claim they've encountered bigfoot.  So are you saying I should take the position that bigfoot doesn't exist and that aliens haven't abducted people since I'm not convinced by their evidence?  I'm sorry but that doesn't seem smart to me at all.  I think we should be able to take the position, "I don't know".   Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I'm comfortable with that response if I truly don't know, how much does the bible encourage people to doubt it's own claims?  Not at all right? 

You said that the new definition of atheism doesn't really say anything...please define in very exact terms what a "soul" or "spirit" or "God" is.  I said in my post that these terms are ill defined to begin with!   This whole topic is rife with weakly defined terms, sloppy language etc and for good reason.  It's a topic we really don't know much about yet and my view is one of humility and uncertainty.  So I'm sorry if my position doesn't say much, neither does my counterpart.

Christianity doesn't have many claims, people have claims about what the Bible claims.  I'm not aware of any one single Judeo Christian view.  I see Christians that disagree on virtually every topic in the Bible.  The last time I checked, the scientific community didn't view Genesis as scientifically or historically accurate.   Besides, I think the logic you're using is very flawed.  An ancient religion that contains many true statements might still be wrong about the things we can't investigate.   I don't know if you've seen Bill Maher's movie Religulous but the theme he keeps bringing to the forefront is that one of the fundamental flaws of religion is it's certainty about it's claims.   Claims, mind you, about things we can't even properly study to warrant such confidence.  We get a fair amount of things wrong about the physical world we can study, doesn't it strike you as odd that some of us have extreme confidence about things that might not even exist?

Edited April 9, 2016 by Bonky

[FresnoJoe]

 

I get the impression that many folks think "atheist" means someone who says there are no gods and they're sure of that.  That definition may be true for a few but it's not the majority of non-believers, at least not in my experience.  How can we be sure about something that is not well defined, if exists is beyond our grasp etc?

Beloved, Both Atheist And Agnostic Means Pagan (Godless)

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

And, As You've Heard Many Times

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5

The Only Hope

For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Romans 15:4

For Pagans

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Is Jesus

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

~

Believe

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[kwikphilly]

Blessings HAZARD......

     I do understand what you are saying & I tend to believe it because the Word of God says it is so,,,,,,,,that does not really mean "for a time" they may truly believe themselves that there is no God,or gods or anything beyond what they see before them or whatever it is they believe,,,,,,,I think that Gods Word is telling us that by the time a person physically dies they will have had "no excuse" because God Will have been evident sometime in their life.........so it is not fair to say that until it is their final moment on earth

     I understand Bonky & I think he  is very sincere in saying he is more agnostic & probably most atheists really are agnostic,,,,,,,,,,all I'm saying is that we cannot know or judge a mans heart,,,,,God knows our hearts plus He is not bound by time or space as we are,therefore Gods is not a man that He should lie,,,,,,,He knows everyone's beginning & their end(past present & future)     So indeed,an atheist today may be an agnostic tomorrow                           To God be the Glory                                 With love-in Christ,Kwik

[LuftWaffle]

 

I own an ocean going boat and mostly fish the ocean.

Many, or I should say, most co - workers, friends upon whom I trust to keep me safe and I them in the coal mining industry are non believers and openly say so. When ever someone mentions God, without cursing, in general conversation, some ask me my thoughts on God which I give, and some respond with; "Anyone who believes God exists and in the fairy stories written in the Bible, Is a (curse word***Idiot.), and then I get for several days, "Here comes father Hazard, or pastor, or minister, even reverend,  I don't mind. What I relaying is they don't care, they will mostly react violently using filthy language, one even said in front of our whole crew; "God, if you exist prove it, I don't believe you do, but if you do come down here and strike me dead now!"

He stood there looking skyward, grinning then laughing while commenting; "See, I told you so, God does not exist."
 

Naturally God would not strike him dead for God knows if he does not repent he will pay for his arrogance toward Him. How do you think he will feel if he dies without repenting one day, and on judgment day?

This is what I am against here. If I am insulting them by saying sorry, God does exist, there are many proofs, think about what your saying, get hold of a Bible and read it with an honest heart, you many change your mind, then I will continue to insult them. They insult God every time they open their mouths.

This Scripture virtually says it all;

Romans 1:20-21, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.   Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

God means what He says when He says what He means, and He does not mince words, cares not if people feel insulted or annoyed by these Scriptures.

Matthew 10:33, But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

John. 20:29, "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Psalm 14:1, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." 

 

[LuftWaffle]

Hi Bonky,

The quote system on this website is driving me nuts so I'm going to put your statements in red

I can fully respect that you wish to define what you believe in your own terms, and I fully agree that it's better to find out what people believe rather than to jump to conclusions, but I also know that if I'm going to use non-standard definitions in my discourse that I can reasonably expect people to misunderstand me.

In an earlier post you referred to atheists versed in philosophy and logic, in a way that seemed you also valued such things, so it's surprising to see you now take such a low view of proper philosophical definitions.

As such I've always been puzzled when people have a problem with so-called "labels". Labels are really just a way of distinguishing concepts and even those who say they don't like labels, distinguish between themselves and those who label things. Labels are inevitable.

What is an agnostic atheist? If using the standard definition of atheist, then "agnostic atheist" would appear to be a contradiction, because an agnostic doesn't know whether or not there's a god while an atheist denies that there is a god.
If one takes the "new atheist" definition then agnostic atheist is redundant, because not knowing whether or not there is a god implies that one would also lack belief. Perhaps you can shed light on what precisely the practical difference is between an agnostic and an agnostic atheist.

"I'm sorry but that doesn't seem smart to me at all.  I think we should be able to take the position, "I don't know" - Bonky
Isn't that agnosticism So why redefine atheism to mean essentially the same thing?

"You said that the new definition of atheism doesn't really say anything...please define in very exact terms what a "soul" or "spirit" or "God" is." - Bonky
You're misunderstanding my point. "Lacking belief" is not a claim about the way the world is, it's simply an autobiographical claim about the persons psychological state. As such, those claims do not offer anything to the conversation and cannot ever be challenged. 
My point is that this is so by design because it avoids shouldering a burden of proof.
Theism does make claims about the way the world is, so it's not the same thing.

I also disagree with you that the topic of religion is rife with weakly defined terms and sloppy language. Proper definitions needn't be exhaustive, they simply need to capture the essense of the point being brought across.

"I'm not aware of any one single Judeo Christian view" - Bonky
I find this statement somewhat incredible, Bonky. How many Christians would disagree that God created the universe? That Jesus rose from the dead? That Jesus died on a cross for mankind's sin? That there is right or wrong? etc.
In fact C.S Lewis' book Mere Christianity is a book length attempt at captured precisely what the core commonalities in Chrisitanity are.

"Besides, I think the logic you're using is very flawed.  An ancient religion that contains many true statements might still be wrong about the things we can't investigate." - Bonky
My logic would have been flawed if I offered the instances where Christianity's claims were consistent with discovery as proof of Christianity, but I did not. In order to evaluate an idea one needs to look at both the positive and the negatives of the idea. I find many atheists will cherry what is negative about Christianity and completely ignore what is positive.  

"I don't know if you've seen Bill Maher's movie Religulous but the theme he keeps bringing to the forefront is that one of the fundamental flaws of religion is it's certainty about it's claims." - Bonky
This, to me, is probably the most surprising part of your post. Bill Maher's mockumentary far from exemplifies the humility, and thoughtfulness and careful contemplation that you're espousing here. He essentially went around looking for the worst examples of Christianity that he could find and compiled it into a film that was meant to show that religion is ridiculous. And despite having a problem with certainty he seems fairly certain that religion is ridiculous, and that belies the self-defeating nature of claiming that certainty is bad. How does one attack certainty without being certain that it's worth attacking in the first place?

And atheism is far from immune to it, afterall, what else could drive Daniel Dennet and Richard Dawkins to boast that atheists should be called "The Brights" and what else could drive a person like Peter Boghossian to say, that Christians need to sit at the kids table while atheists get to sit at the adults table?

Having said that I get your point and I can understand the value of humility, which is why my claim has always been that I cannot prove Christianity, but instead that I believe there are good reasons why one can rationally accept Christianity. So, in that regard I'm on your side, but I also know that  "I don't know" can be used to avoid accepting a conclusion that one is biased against. In such cases, it's not humility talking.