Interesting fact about Enoch's generations

[MorningGlory]

2 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said:

If that were true there would be no point to studying people like Aristotle either.  The point is the Bible is the canon that provides the ability to weigh other writings.  So when I read Aristotle, while I respect his intelligence, I also recognize that his pursuit of knowledge is not guided by the Spirit.  So, some things I just find irrelevant.  However, his book "On the Heavens" is the first place that the atmosphere is referred to as ether, which is still debated, and I have only a beginners understanding of the subject so that is all I will say about it.  But, it is an interesting piece of information from antiquity that is still considered in the study of modern physics.  But, should I not consider someone like Aristotle at all because he isn't a writer guided by the Spirit according to your argument opposing extrabilical material?  I don't see why that would be necessary just like I don't see how it should bother you if I decide to form my own conclusion about the book. 

What difference does it make to you?

It makes absolutely NO difference to me what you read and I'm pretty sure I never said YOU shouldn't form your own conclusion about that or any other book.  I've no idea how you read that into my post to Sister.  Aristotle is a totally different subject; his writings are not Christian, he didn't believe in our God; he was a philosopher.  i'm certainly not saying no one should read anything outside of the 66 books of the Bible.  I'm talking about the books that were excluded from the canon being used to interpret Scripture or validate it or whatever one would be using it for.  You are putting a spin on my comments that is totally off.

[Esther4:14]

34 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

It makes absolutely NO difference to me what you read and I'm pretty sure I never said YOU shouldn't form your own conclusion about that or any other book.  I've no idea how you read that into my post to Sister.  Aristotle is a totally different subject; his writings are not Christian, he didn't believe in our God; he was a philosopher.  i'm certainly not saying no one should read anything outside of the 66 books of the Bible.  I'm talking about the books that were excluded from the canon being used to interpret Scripture or validate it or whatever one would be using it for.  You are putting a spin on my comments that is totally off.

I think everyone is fully aware that the book of Enoch is not considered scripture.  If you are not interested in reading the book of Enoch for yourself to have any sort of deeper conversation on the subject.  Why is it so difficult for you to do something else and let people who are clearly responsible in their understanding of scripture and how to apply it to outside sources appropriately without considering it to be scripture discuss a subject.  

I even included a post that I believe answers your question or at least could help to have a deeper conversation than this repetitive back and forth because you are not really interested in participating in the conversation.  You are only interested in being some kind of self declared referee over what we should and should not discuss as Christians.  

In my comment earlier in this thread, I concluded that I found the book of Enoch edifying because of how it caused me to considered the absence of everything that existed prior to the flood.  We are innocent in our present generation of every act of lawlessness to some degree because we are unaware of what they were exactly.  In other words, we can't repeat the same mistakes that took place before the flood based on an awareness of what they were.  This doesn't mean they can't be repeated, on the hand.  But, they are not learned behaviors.   

Therefore, it is possible that this innocence of lawlessness designates lawlessness as a mystery because of the flood.  

Therefore, when scripture refers to the mystery of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:7), it is referring to things that we are innocent of because the history of this was destroyed with the flood.  However, the spirit of lawlessness will be destroyed when the prophecy is complete, and it is this same spirit of lawlessness that existed before the flood and the flood is why it is a mystery to us.  

So, there is how considering the book of Enoch edified my understanding of the brief account of Noah given in the book of Genesis.  

And, it would be nice for a change to have a more thorough discussion on these subjects sometimes.  The time period pre flood is a fascinating subject and there isn't a whole of documentation to go off of to begin with.  There is nothing wrong with a somewhat archaeological dig of this book.  

Maybe, if you do not want to do this, maybe you could just leave some of us alone for a change that do.  Thanks so much.   

 

[1to3]

On 2016-04-19 at 7:02 PM, bopeep1909 said:

I agree with you on this MG. I have no interest at all in the book.

I agree as well

[Sister]

8 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

Great analysis, Sister.  But how does this tie in with going to extrabiblical books?  We are not going to learn from what God did not deem acceptable to be included in the Bible. 

MG

When you say extrabiblical books, you mean not part of the bible or associated.  I can't speak for the other books out there, for I have not studied them, but Enoch I have.  I found it harmonises quite nicely and does not go against sound doctrine.  Everyone is looking for the things that don't appear right, and no mention of the things that are accurate.  For example, in Genesis we know that the angels mingled with the women and produced children. 

Genesis 6:2   That THE SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:4   There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when THE SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
 

If we can't identify who these "sons of God" are, that they were in fact angels who rebelled, then Enoch is going to seem like a fairy tale for starters.  And we wouldn't of made this connection at first, until we read Job.  So we learn from Job that these "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis were in fact "angels" that God was referring to.

Job 1:6   Now there was a day when THE SONS OF GOD came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7   And the LORD said unto "Satan", Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

There was a meeting in heaven amongst all the angels.  They are all called "sons of God"  You see how understanding grows?, only from reading....

 

Now we learn from Peter that these particular "Sons of God" which are clearly identified as "angels" in Job, were punished for what they did and were sent to the deep, in a spiritual prison..

2 Peter 2:4   For if God spared not "THE ANGELS that "SINNED" but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into "CHAINS OF DARKNESS", to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:5   And spared not "THE OLD WORLD", but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

and in Jude, this is also comfirmed;

 Jude 1:6   And the "ANGELS" which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath RESERVED in EVERLASTING CHAINS under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
 

So we know about these angels from the scriptures.  We already know that if we have been following the right leads.  What we didn't know from the scriptures is how many of them actually had wives, the names of their leaders, and the other details concerning them.  So Enoch does not contradict what has already been revealed, but gives a little more insight.

And this is what I mean, having a good foundation, knowing truth from the scriptures, and comparing.  There are many who don't believe those "sons of God" are angels, but think they are men, because they have not been feeding properly taking all the information into account from the holy bible first.

 

[Sister]

Esther4:14,

Seeing as you find the book of Enoch facinating like I do, this is what I have picked up in his strange writings, that don't seem so strange after all.  No one is having a go, and this is too good to ignore.

 

 

Yeah, I Enoch will DECLARE (them) unto you, MY SONS.

 

According to that which appeared to me in the HEAVENLY VISION,  And which I have known through the word of the holy angels and have learnt from the heavenly tablets. (In heaven, and in visions, God always spoke through his angels to man when speaking directly, just like in Revelation, God showed Jesus who showed the angel who showed John.  There is always order, so not so surprising Enoch mentioned the angel who was speaking to him, ...the same as all the other encounters in the holy scriptures)

 

3.  And Enoch began to recount from THE BOOKS and said; 

I was born THE SEVENTH in the FIRST WEEK,     Enoch born 7^th Generation from Adam,  1^st Week = 1^st stage of the old world before the flood.

While judgement and righteousness still endured,         

 

4.  And after me there shall arise in the SECOND WEEK, great wickedness,  Angels mingling with man (Gen 6)

 

 And deceit shall have sprung up;  And IN IT there shall be the FIRST END (the flood),  And IN IT, a MAN shall be SAVED (Noah);  And AFTER it is ended (the flood) UNRIGHTEOUSNESS shall grow up (Babel),  And a LAW shall be made for the SINNERS. (Moses with the 10 commandments)

 

And AFTER THAT in the THIRD WEEK at its close,  A MAN shall be ELECTED as THE PLANT OF RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT,  And his posterity shall become THE PLANT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS for EVER MORE. (Jesus foretold by prophets of Old Testament)

 

6.  And AFTER THAT in the FOURTH WEEK, at it’s close, VISIONS of the HOLY and RIGHTEOUS shall be seen,  And a LAW for all generations and an ENCLOSURE shall be made for THEM. (The Son of God is come, all must go through him.  The Sanctuary is set up, an enclosure for the God fearing to dwell in spiritually)

 

7.  And after that in the FIFTH WEEK, at its close, The HOUSE of GLORY and DOMINION shall be built FOR EVER. (Apostles preach the gospel, and from there the gospels are spread, converts continually coming in)

 

8.  And AFTER THAT in the SIXTH WEEK all who live in it shall be BLINDED,  (Falling away, many deceived and drunk with false doctrines) And the hearts of all of them shall godlessly FORSAKE WISDOM. (truth is rejected)  And in it a MAN shall ASCEND (false prophet arises);  and at it’s CLOSE (his end) the HOUSE of DOMINION shall be burnt with fire And the WHOLE RACE of the CHOSEN ROOT shall be dispersed. (Jerusalem trodden down by gentiles and scattered,  

Ezekiel 6:8   Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.   )

 

9.  And AFTER THAT in the SEVENTH WEEK shall an APOSTATE GENERATION arise,  And many shall be it’s deeds,  And all it’s deeds shall be APOSTATE. (Brother against brother, Christians hating Christians.  Their deeds are open now for all to see after the False Prophet enforces his laws.  There is a clear division.)

 

10.  And at ITS CLOSE, shall be ELECTED.  The ELECT RIGHTEOUS of the ETERNAL PLANT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,  To RECEIVE sevenfold INSTRUCTION concerning all HIS CREATION. (144,000 sealed at the end of the 7th week.  Taken up.)

 

12.  And AFTER THAT there shall be another, the EIGHTH WEEK, that of righteousness,  And a SWORD shall be given to it that a RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT may be EXECUTED on the OPPRESSORS,  And SINNERS shall be DELIVERED into the HANDS of the RIGHTEOUS. (2nd Coming, 144K with Christ)

 

13.  And AT IT’S CLOSE they shall ACQUIRE HOUSES through their RIGHTEOUSNESS, And A HOUSE shall be built for THE GREAT KING in GLORY for EVER MORE. (1^st Resurrection.  Saints receive their inheritance)

 

14d.  And all MANKIND shall look to the path of UPRIGHTNESS. (The Kingdom of God is being preached to all survivors and their future generations to come)

 

14a.  And AFTER THAT, in the NINTH WEEK, the RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT shall be revealed to the WHOLE WORLD. (1000 years finishing. Gog and Magog war coming)

 

b.  And ALL the WORKS of the GODLESS shall VANISH from ALL THE EARTH. (The wicked living will be killed who joined Gog & Magog)

 

c.  And the WORLD shall be WRITTEN DOWN for DESTRUCTION. (The melting of the earth is coming soon, but all evil has to be destroyed first)

 

15.  And AFTER THIS, in the TENTH WEEK, in the SEVENTH PART,  There shall be the GREAT ETERNAL JUDGEMENT,  In which HE will EXECUTE VENGEANCE amongst THE ANGELS. (2^nd Judgement, and 2nd resurrection.  Fallen angels thrown into Lake of fire)

 

16.  And the FIRST HEAVEN shall DEPART and PASS AWAY,  And a NEW HEAVEN shall APPEAR,  And all the powers of the heavens shall give SEVENFOLD LIGHT. (New heaven and earth)

 

17.  And AFTER THAT, there will be MANY WEEKS WITHOUT NUMBER, for ever,  And all shall be in GOODNESS and RIGHTEOUSNESS,  And sin shall be no more mentioned for ever, (Evil gone and only the righteous left.  A new beginning without evil which has no end)

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Sister

Quote

This scares many off, for the bible is for the simple, for the unlearned, the broken hearted and the humble to find refuge, and we don't need all that other stuff to come to Christ, just his WORD. 

That is the most edifying & encouraging message in this entire discussion,,,,,,,,,,FANTASTIC,,,,,we have many onlookers & this is the type of thing they should find when they come visit our Worthy Ministry...................the rest is all very interesting & great for conversation but what is the heart of it all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,?

Quote

You are only interested in being some kind of self declared referee over what we should and should not discuss as Christians.  

I do not usually address or like to bring up negative statements that we discourage & are clearly not permitted in our ToS but that is the type of thing we must be mindful of & be accountable for our own re-actions & the words we use

Not everyone is going to agree with everyone,,,,,,,,we are not always going to support what the other one does or chooses to do(or read) & in this Worthy Forum everyone is welcome to share their perspective,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we must respect that & not name call,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,should they not join in on the conversation?Of course not,we embrace our Brothers & Sisters & consider what they are saying and we 'reason together"

The Body of Christ is one complete unit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Christ is our Head,we are United by our Faith & usually if one member is saying something different than the others then somewhere ,something is not "in line",,,,,we have BUT one Spirit,the Holy Spirit,the Same Spirit that gives us each Wisdom & Understanding,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,to be in One Accord is to be walking in Spirit & in Truth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,to ALL have like mind & judgment is what we should be striving for,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,perhaps we can "listen " more ,talk less & seek God to guide us,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

                                                                                                              With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Esther4:14]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Esther4:14,

Seeing as you find the book of Enoch facinating like I do, this is what I have picked up in his strange writings, that don't seem so strange after all.  No one is having a go, and this is too good to ignore.

 

 

Yeah, I Enoch will DECLARE (them) unto you, MY SONS.

 

 

 

According to that which appeared to me in the HEAVENLY VISION,  And which I have known through the word of the holy angels and have learnt from the heavenly tablets. (In heaven, and in visions, God always spoke through his angels to man when speaking directly, just like in Revelation, God showed Jesus who showed the angel who showed John.  There is always order, so not so surprising Enoch mentioned the angel who was speaking to him, ...the same as all the other encounters in the holy scriptures)

 

 

 

3.  And Enoch began to recount from THE BOOKS and said; 

 

I was born THE SEVENTH in the FIRST WEEK,     Enoch born 7^th Generation from Adam,  1^st Week = 1^st stage of the old world before the flood.

 

While judgement and righteousness still endured,         

 

 

I had actually noticed that you posted this earlier and the first thing that came to mind was the ten Sefirot that is a teaching in Kabbalah.  Here is a description from the Jewish Virtual library https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Sefirot.html  

Basically, the majority of the book of Enoch is a somewhat detailed calendar system, so I think that this is relevant somehow to this principle as well.  There is a ministry called One Faith One People Ministries that has some real intense study on the history of the calendar system from ancient writings that are difficult for me to follow http://www.onefaithonepeopleministries.com/.  But, that is what I think the passage is relevant to in some respect, some sort of calendar system.   

In fact, in my most recent reading through of the book of Enoch, I noticed a verse that seems to match Daniel 7:25  " He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time."

"And many chiefs of the stars shall transgress the order (prescribed).
And these shall alter their orbits and tasks,
And not appear at the seasons prescribed to them.

And the whole order of the stars shall be concealed from the sinners,
And the thoughts of those on the earth shall err concerning them," (Enoch 80:6-7).  

So, scripture does confirm this is altered somehow.  However, I have been waiting till I got to this passage in context to more fully consider it.  
 

 

[MorningGlory]

13 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

I think everyone is fully aware that the book of Enoch is not considered scripture.  If you are not interested in reading the book of Enoch for yourself to have any sort of deeper conversation on the subject.  Why is it so difficult for you to do something else and let people who are clearly responsible in their understanding of scripture and how to apply it to outside sources appropriately without considering it to be scripture discuss a subject.  

I even included a post that I believe answers your question or at least could help to have a deeper conversation than this repetitive back and forth because you are not really interested in participating in the conversation.  You are only interested in being some kind of self declared referee over what we should and should not discuss as Christians.  

In my comment earlier in this thread, I concluded that I found the book of Enoch edifying because of how it caused me to considered the absence of everything that existed prior to the flood.  We are innocent in our present generation of every act of lawlessness to some degree because we are unaware of what they were exactly.  In other words, we can't repeat the same mistakes that took place before the flood based on an awareness of what they were.  This doesn't mean they can't be repeated, on the hand.  But, they are not learned behaviors.   

Therefore, it is possible that this innocence of lawlessness designates lawlessness as a mystery because of the flood.  

Therefore, when scripture refers to the mystery of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:7), it is referring to things that we are innocent of because the history of this was destroyed with the flood.  However, the spirit of lawlessness will be destroyed when the prophecy is complete, and it is this same spirit of lawlessness that existed before the flood and the flood is why it is a mystery to us.  

So, there is how considering the book of Enoch edified my understanding of the brief account of Noah given in the book of Genesis.  

And, it would be nice for a change to have a more thorough discussion on these subjects sometimes.  The time period pre flood is a fascinating subject and there isn't a whole of documentation to go off of to begin with.  There is nothing wrong with a somewhat archaeological dig of this book.  

Maybe, if you do not want to do this, maybe you could just leave some of us alone for a change that do.  Thanks so much.   

 

Maybe if I didn't care about the inerrancy of the Bible I could do that.  But, let me reiterate, I didn't address you; I was responding to Sister so I, in effect, WAS leaving you alone.  Read whatever you want, it's a free country.  My concerns are for Christians AS A WHOLE so please stop trying to make this about you.  I will not be stepping away from the threads that promote extrabiblical 'Scripture' so become accustomed to that fact and go on with your reading.  There is no rule saying you have to respond to my comments but, if you do, be prepared for my response.

[MorningGlory]

5 hours ago, Sister said:

MG

When you say extrabiblical books, you mean not part of the bible or associated.  I can't speak for the other books out there, for I have not studied them, but Enoch I have.  I found it harmonises quite nicely and does not go against sound doctrine.  Everyone is looking for the things that don't appear right, and no mention of the things that are accurate.  For example, in Genesis we know that the angels mingled with the women and produced children. 

Genesis 6:2   That THE SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:4   There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when THE SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
 

If we can't identify who these "sons of God" are, that they were in fact angels who rebelled, then Enoch is going to seem like a fairy tale for starters.  And we wouldn't of made this connection at first, until we read Job.  So we learn from Job that these "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis were in fact "angels" that God was referring to.

Job 1:6   Now there was a day when THE SONS OF GOD came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7   And the LORD said unto "Satan", Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

There was a meeting in heaven amongst all the angels.  They are all called "sons of God"  You see how understanding grows?, only from reading....

 

Now we learn from Peter that these particular "Sons of God" which are clearly identified as "angels" in Job, were punished for what they did and were sent to the deep, in a spiritual prison..

2 Peter 2:4   For if God spared not "THE ANGELS that "SINNED" but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into "CHAINS OF DARKNESS", to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:5   And spared not "THE OLD WORLD", but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

and in Jude, this is also comfirmed;

 Jude 1:6   And the "ANGELS" which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath RESERVED in EVERLASTING CHAINS under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
 

So we know about these angels from the scriptures.  We already know that if we have been following the right leads.  What we didn't know from the scriptures is how many of them actually had wives, the names of their leaders, and the other details concerning them.  So Enoch does not contradict what has already been revealed, but gives a little more insight.

And this is what I mean, having a good foundation, knowing truth from the scriptures, and comparing.  There are many who don't believe those "sons of God" are angels, but think they are men, because they have not been feeding properly taking all the information into account from the holy bible first.

 

A Christian is free to pursue anything they please.  Be mindful that you DON'T KNOW if the Book of Enoch is accurate or not.  It adds detail; are the details true?  I have noticed the tendency of some believers now to fill their minds with every book, idea, theory or mantra that presents itself.  One's mind can become like any other receptacle that has garbage stuffed into it; too full, disorderly and dysfunctional.  I have no control over the reading or studying of others; I can only voice my concern over the attempted watering down of the Bible.  If one believes the Bible to be inspired by God and the books therein to have been controlled by Him, there would be no need to go outside it for knowledge about our faith, IMO. 

[ENOCH2010]

It's amazing to me that some people have a problem with the book of Enoch because it isn't included in the cannon, but don't have a problem at all with the left behind series and what those books teach.... WOW