Why the Great Trib May Be of Short Duration

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

That is an interesting theory William.  I like the consideration of the role of 40 days seen throughout scripture.  The 40 day periods that have always amazed me were the ones when Jesus and Moses fasted for 40 days.  That is profound to me.  

I have managed a tenth of that.

4 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

However, 40 days was often a time of preparing for ministry.  Do you think it is possible that the Holy Spirit will prepare those who persevere to the end with a 40 day preparation like Moses and Jesus experienced.   

That has much to do with it. After the Rapture takes place following the heavenly and earthly signs of the 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29, we thereafter see the Church in heaven, "having come out of the Great Tribulation ...[being prepared to] "serve Him in his [heavenly] Temple." Rev. 7:14-15 That is, in ministry.

4 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

 In other words, the numbers 40 and 7 divide evenly into the common time frame [7 years or times] we have generally considered the book of Revelation ...

So, I would be interested in hearing you elaborate more on how 40 days would be included in this concept.

There is no scriptural witness I know to support this 7-year period, so I can't comment on your belief. I've said above that I suspect that the 40 days will be the initial period of the 1260 days of the Little Horn [= the Mouth of the Beast, not the Beast itself].

[Esther4:14]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I have managed a tenth of that.

That has much to do with it. After the Rapture takes place following the heavenly and earthly signs of the 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29, we thereafter see the Church in heaven, "having come out of the Great Tribulation ...[being prepared to] "serve Him in his [heavenly] Temple." Rev. 7:14-15 That is, in ministry.

There is no scriptural witness I know to support this 7-year period, so I can't comment on your belief. I've said above that I suspect that the 40 days will be the initial period of the 1260 days of the Little Horn [= the Mouth of the Beast, not the Beast itself].

Very interesting William, I must have missed that.  That answers my question.  Personally, I have long considered something like this as the method of preparing the witnesses for their ministry as part of a vow that sets them apart like the Nazarite vow.  For example, the clothing of the witnesses would be part of the vow that sets them apart like Samson.  

However, I have also considered the possibility that something like you are suggesting would be a method to escape according to Luke 21:36; or, the way wrath would pass over the saints.  Anyways, I am not trying to derail.  Just wanted to share some thoughts.  Tc.  

[Omegaman 3.0]

10 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

Amen.  The Great Tribulation will last 7 years.  Nothing more to say.

Hmmm, I see it as 3.5 years or less, lol!

[Guest Robert]

A few things I would like to say on this:

 

1) In Revelation 11, scripture tells us:

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"Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. “Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them."  (Revelation 11: 1-7, NASB, emphasis mine )

 

Then, Revelation 12 tells us:

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"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days." (Revelation 12: 5-6, NASB, emphasis mine )

 

And:

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"And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. "  (Revelation 12: 13-17, NASB, emphasis mine )

 So, if the two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days before the Beast kills them (and this is partway through the Tribulation already), and the woman flees into the desert for 1260 days after the witnesses are killed (keep in mind: the Beast doesn't come onto the scene until Revelation chapter 13, and it is then that he overcomes God's people) I do not see how it is possible for the Tribulation is only 3 1/2 years, 40 days, or any period of time less than 7 years.

 

In fact, it could very well be longer than 7 years...

 

2) Is only the last 3 1/2 years the time of God's wrath on this planet? According to Revelation 6:

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"Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  (Revelation 6:15-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

In Revelation 6-8 we read that is is the Lamb (Jesus Christ) who breaks the seals; in Revelation 8-11, it is angels of the Lord (they "stand before God") who blow the seven trumpets; In Revelation 16, it is angels who come from the temple in Heaven with bowls filled with God's wrath who pour them on the Earth. From beginning to end, this is all God's wrath and judgment upon mankind.

 

3) In reading this topic, I have seen both sides of this discussion make some really good points using scripture. But that said, I have also seen people rip each other to bloody shreds with name-calling, insinuations, and utter disrespect. This had been something I noticed in myself previously, and felt convicted on and had to repent of: it is not the fruit of the Spirit for any of us, and it is causing a LOT of harm. If we are in the Last Days (and I believe we are, regardless of where one stands on the issue of the Rapture), then our witness is going to matter more than ever. And yes: we are to cling to the truth and defend it to the end. But we cannot say that we are spreading the Gospel when we are acting like we are each others worst enemy! And if we are trying to defend how we tear into each other far more vehemently than we are trying displaying the sanctification, grace and salvation the Lord has given us through the precious blood of Jesus Christ: then we need to ask ourselves some serious questions and examine ourselves as scriptures tell us to do (2 Corinthians 13).

Before we defend ourselves to one another, we need to make sure we are right with the Lord and not doing what Paul warns about here:

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"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 1envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another."  (Titus 3: 1-7, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

We can tell people "the truth in love" without trying to gnash at them, and it doesn't make us anyone's "enemy" for telling them the truth if we do not use the truth as a bludgeon to bash the spiritual daylights out of them. We are not to be of this world, which means not behaving as they do in trying to communicate the truth that the Lord has given us:

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"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:1-2, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

Our brethren here are all MORE than "words on a screen": they are human beings with thoughts, hearts and feelings. While we should not try to dilute the Word of the Lord, we need to treat people here as people. No one likes being hurt by cruel or careless words, or by someone trying to "be right" and win an argument "at all costs". Not only that, but those seeking the Lord here are also human beings with the same feelings. They may not yet be saved, but does that make them any less human? 

I know what my words here may sound like, and the accusations that might come with it. By no means am I saying we should "candy coat" the truth or stop preaching because we may "hurt someone". But what I am saying is that what we display here is read by others in this world, believer and non-believer alike. And the Lord Himself sees all of this as well, and records all of our words and deeds:

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"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Matthew 12: 33-37, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

In closing, all I will say is this: ask the Lord in honest, humble prayer: "Is it possible I am ripping my brother or sister to pieces? Am I, in trying to serve You, going about it the wrong way and showing the world someone no different than it? Am I doing Your will Lord, or am I doing my own and trying to claim it as Yours?"

 

You may be surprised at the answer you get: I was, when the Lord confronted my on my own hardheartedness.

 

YBIC,

 

-Robert

 

Edited May 7, 2016 by RobertS
spelling, the bane of my existence lol

[Last Daze]

15 hours ago, Ezra said:

Right.  So the shortening applies to the second half of Daniel's week.

How do you define the great tribulation?  What event begins it?  What event ends it?  Please use scripture to support your answer.

[Spock]

On May 5, 2016 at 3:41 PM, WilliamL said:

The way I understand it at present, the first 40 days [minus however much shortened] of the 1260 will be the time of testing of the Church = the Great Tribulation. Then the Church will be removed, and only Israel and those of the Church who were not "ready" (Matt. 25:10f.) will remain on earth during the remainder of the 1260 days.

Does this 40 days begin at the abomination of desolation?  I'm thinking it has to. How about you?

[Spock]

53 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

How do you define the great tribulation?  What event begins it?  What event ends it?  Please use scripture to support your answer.

I'm thinking the GT begins at the halfway point of Daniels 70th week. This so happens to be the time of the abomination of desolation, when perhaps the beast is killed and then resurrected by Satan and then takes his place in the Temple proclaiming to be God, demanding worship. 

Having said all of that, I'm still not convinced this rule will be world wide.  It seems to me it is regional because so many kings are opposed to him from several directions. 

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

How do you define the great tribulation?  What event begins it?  What event ends it?  Please use scripture to support your answer.

DEFINITION OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION (Mt 24:21)

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

BEGINNING OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION (Rev 15:1)

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

END OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION (Rev 18:8)

Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for  for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

[Ezra]

6 hours ago, Spock said:

I'm thinking the GT begins at the halfway point of Daniels 70th week. 

Correct.

6 hours ago, Spock said:

Having said all of that, I'm still not convinced this rule will be world wide.

Incorrect.  Please see Rev 13:7,8.

[Last Daze]

23 hours ago, Spock said:

I'm thinking the GT begins at the halfway point of Daniels 70th week. This so happens to be the time of the abomination of desolation, when perhaps the beast is killed and then resurrected by Satan and then takes his place in the Temple proclaiming to be God, demanding worship. 

Having said all of that, I'm still not convinced this rule will be world wide.  It seems to me it is regional because so many kings are opposed to him from several directions. 

So many kings are opposed to him ... until ... he calls fire down from heaven.  Then people say "who is like the beast and who can wage war with him" and then his only opposition is the believers.  The image of the beast is the means of waging war on the saints.

While I do see his rule as being worldwide, I think there will be varying degrees of his authority based on the people's willingness and ability to enforce it.  The deceived people of the world are the ones who will be the policemen that enforce the "worship or die" ultimatum associated with the image.  I think the enforcement of his rule will vary from region to region based on a number of factors.