Chaos - True or False?

[Kan]

9 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Back up a bit.  Are you talking about the waters in Genesis 1:2, or are you talking about the waters in Genesis 1:6?  Where does the darkness come from since God is light?  Doesn't darkness indicate God is not present there?

Both, the primary substance which is supernatural is used to produce the natural.

God creates light and darkness. But since sin entered the darkness has become a symbol of not knowing what is around, and being in danger of deception. Several places in the Bible talk about God surrounding Himself in darkness, in clouds, and so forth. Whether that is only a temporary thing to protect sinners, I don't know.

[Kan]

9 hours ago, post said:

that leaves the methods the Creator uses, has used and will use broadly open-ended -- & no reason to describe any of them as 'unnatural' 

He can just as easily teach and reveal His wisdom & glory through miraculous doings as He can through the commonplace; Solomon had plenty to say just from what he observed every day, and Jesus used all kinds of normal, 'natural' events to teach in parable. 

i don't think it diminishes the hand of God in anything just because its workings can be somehow comprehended. 

anyhow, back to what you were saying, about the ocean teeming with life at His command, the only reason i see to utterly reject any explanation of this that doesn't involve the absolutely miraculous is to believe that it literally happened in a matter of seconds. 
that's entirely possible - this is God's work, and He can do as He pleases. but isn't the whole basis of such a view of it, the understanding of a 'yom' in Genesis to be a literal 24-hour period ? 
i'm not rejecting that by any means, but i don't see a reason to be dogmatic about YEC/OEC either way. there's plenty of weight to the argument that deceit is not in His character, so why should the universe appear to be so old? and there's plenty of weight to the argument that the text plainly says 'yom' so maybe it just plainly means 'yom.' 

where was post when any of this happened? where was Kan? 

some people base their entire testimony and witness on this subject, and seem to completely forget about Christ. that's a shame IMHO. 




what were we talking about again . . ? 
chaos ? 'void' ? water ? quark-gluon soup ? lol.

I think you get where I am headed, that matter is the product of much greater and more powerful "energies" (for the lack of a suitable term). Jesus is said to have created the visible and invisible things.

This concept is new to science, not that it hasn't been bought up in the past hundreds of times. But the evidence is showing that matter is a small component, and even a sign of much more consequential forces which seem to fill the universe, and also seem to challenge definition, logic and commonly realized properties.

To give you an example of what "the Waters" capital letter for super, will do if you were exposed to a full dose. You would be annihilated in an instant, as the Bible says, it is death. Every molecule would be dissolved into the Waters and spread into every part of the universe where the Waters exist. So you would be universal. But since there is no longer any relation whatsoever in any of those former molecules, or any of the forces, you don't exist. What is more time no longer exists there. So if you were able to miraculously survive it would be only for less than a nanosecond. That is one of the best ways to describe what this force does.

The Light is equally dangerous, and if exposed to a full dose, you would be compressed into zero space, but you would be preserved forever in time. It's just a pity you can't be there to enjoy it. 

The one explodes you the other implodes you. 

Now if you were exposed to a limited amount to either force, the Waters would burn you up with intense heat that spreads out into space, and the Light would dissolve you without any heat, and turn you into an infinitely small cold dot.

When Jesus returns, listen to what happens to the elements "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night...the elements shall melt with fervent heat...seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved...the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved...and the elements shall melt with fervent heat..." II Peter 3:10 -12.

The only reason things will melt is because there is some balance between these forces, otherwise they would just explode into a white heat that reaches out into space a couple of light years away from the sun. And at the same time the earth would disappear, as some of the island and mountains will, when Christ returns.

Many mountain chains and islands will not only melt, but dissolve, leaving huge caverns in the ground where they stood. The Bible says that these structures will flee and disappear. 

 

[Kan]

In relation to the topic, the darkness, waters, the deep, chaos etc, is a condition created by God in favor of making our world and all of its neighbors like the sun and planets.

Although destructive on its own, we see that at creation God combines the light with the darkness, the light takes over and capitalizes on the darkness, and shines out of the darkness. Then God separates the light from the darkness. If this was ordinary light and darkness, then nothing would become of it.

But here we are dealing with elements of a higher order than our material world. Just like the invisible things are more powerful and enduring than the visible. And yet, the invisible things are understood by what we can see. Romans 1:20. We haven't gone that far yet, but it's just around the corner in another thread I hope to start, when we can see them at work in the world around us, and in astronomy.

The darkness is a thing which actively absorbs the light, and the light actively multiplies within the dark, both are living and infinite in type and in characteristics. They are reflections of the Word which brings them into existence, which is Wisdom, Intelligence, Infinite power, Life, and it carries all the thoughts and power of God, Who creates the universe by the same.

The condition necessary for creating is a void, a space, formlessness, and even chaos, where even dimensions don't have any rule or recognition. 

This prime nothingness, has to be created, because there is no such thing as any place that does not have order and light, when God is present. Creation cannot be God, it will be finite and of a lower order in existence. It is handed down from God.

And since God cannot be placed into a corner, a special place must be made for creation and matter to exist. Therefor God uses the words "Let there be..." ten times in the creation of this world. Ten allowances, ten ways in which something can come into a place sharing the existence with God.

For God to create is like making room for us to sit on the throne beside Him, which is ultimately what He wishes.

So this chaos in the beginning is nothing, an empty place God has made to be filled with His loved creations.

It is not only empty in the natural sense, but in the supernatural sense, which is more than just space, but an intense and heavy chaos to the highest degree.

The question is does it really have to be so? And if so why?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

10 hours ago, Kan said:

Both, the primary substance which is supernatural is used to produce the natural.

God creates light and darkness. But since sin entered the darkness has become a symbol of not knowing what is around, and being in danger of deception. Several places in the Bible talk about God surrounding Himself in darkness, in clouds, and so forth. Whether that is only a temporary thing to protect sinners, I don't know.

Your analysis is faulty.  Darkness is the absence of light, which is the absence of God.  The waters in the deep of Genesis 1:2 reflect the absence of God, or more specifically, God's judgment.  Chaos represents God's judgment.  God has removed order which results in chaos.

[post]

we sang a spiritual song today in church; i was reminded of this thread. 

♪ who brings our chaos

back into order ?

who makes the orphan

a son a daughter ?

the King of Glory

great King above all kings ! ♫

[kwikphilly]

Quote

♪ who brings our chaos

back into order ?

who makes the orphan

a son a daughter ?

the King of Glory

great King above all kings ! ♫

Halleluyah!!!!

[SavedOnebyGrace]

4 hours ago, post said:

we sang a spiritual song today in church; i was reminded of this thread. 

♪ who brings our chaos

back into order ?

who makes the orphan

a son a daughter ?

the King of Glory

great King above all kings ! ♫

One has to ask, where did the chaos come from?

[HAZARD]

23 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

One has to ask, where did the chaos come from?

Not from God that's for sure. 

[post]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

Not from God that's for sure. 

for sure?

He says:

I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7)

but i maintain that there isn't any true "chaos" - it's a subjective, human term that we use when we can't perceive the order that God ordains. that's the perspective i'm speaking from.
because, remember what the Bible says about randomness? 

The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD. 
(Proverbs 16:33)

[HAZARD]

35 minutes ago, post said:

for sure?

He says:

I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7)

but i maintain that there isn't any true "chaos" - it's a subjective, human term that we use when we can't perceive the order that God ordains. that's the perspective i'm speaking from.
because, remember what the Bible says about randomness? 

The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD. 
(Proverbs 16:33)

 Isiah 45:7, I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Evil, clamaity (Ps 141:5); adversity (1 Sam. 10:19; Ps. 94:13; Eccl. 7:14); Grief (Neh. 2: 10); sorrow, Gen. 44:29); trouble (Ps. 27:4; 41:1, 107:26); distress (Neh. 2:17); bad (Gen. 24:50; 31:24; Lev. 27:10-14); affliction (Num. 11:11; Zech. 1:5); misery (Eccl. 8:6) trouble (Ps. 41:1); Sore (Dt. 6:22); noisome (ez. 14:15, 21); hurt (Gen. 26:29); and wretchedness (Num. 11:14).

The idea is that God has made a law of sowing and reaping, and evil and bad results will come when men sin. God has decreed that misery and wretchedness, sorrow , trouble, and distress will come as a result of sin (Gal. 6:7-8). Ra, is translated evil 430 times and never with the idea that sin is created by God. If men sin and reap for ti, the responsibility for both is theirs. God simply made a law and penalties for breaking the law which will always be in force.