angels4u Posted June 15, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 On 6/14/2016 at 4:16 AM, TrevorL said: Greetings again Joline, I have already expressed a disagreement with the pre-existence of Christ and you seem to be alluding to Philippians 2 and I have a different understanding of this. But yes even now I am still confused with what you are saying, even your latest post. Possibly I am old and slow and not discerning. I am happy to have a rest from this thread unless something significant is posted. Kind regards Trevor Hello Trevor,if you ask God for discernment , you will understand that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God too, I believe you will never see this truth if you bring Jesus and the Holy Spirit lower then God because they are God~~ Can you pray about this? 1 Cor.2:14 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, andhe is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted June 16, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2016 2 hours ago, angels4u said: Hello Trevor,if you ask God for discernment , you will understand that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God too, Since Trevor has already made up his mind, there's not much point in this suggestion. Once people commit to false beliefs, they become more and more adamant that they have the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted June 16, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted June 16, 2016 7 hours ago, angels4u said: Hello Trevor,if you ask God for discernment , you will understand that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God too, I believe you will never see this truth if you bring Jesus and the Holy Spirit lower then God because they are God~~ Can you pray about this? 1 Cor.2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, andhe is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Greetings again angels4u, I appreciate your sincere suggestion. I would consider it appropriate to pray for understanding concerning this subject as a whole, that we may more fully understand God’s revelation concerning Himself. To specifically pray for a concept that I am already convinced is an error that was developed in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, derived in part from Greek philosophy and other sources, contrary to the clear Bible teaching would go against my conscience. Two Mormon’s on one occasion made a similar appeal to me to pray concerning their very wrong doctrines, for example that each of us has an immortal soul in heaven (that has lived a previous existence?) before our birth that enters into the womb. But we are given understanding and wisdom to weigh these things in a reasonable manner. I utterly reject many of their wrong doctrines and to pray about these would be a form of idolatry. Perhaps one area that I have not covered in detail is the concept that angels represent God and speak on his behalf and the title “God” and even the Name “Yahweh” is used by these angels. I mentioned this concept concerning the judges, but have not considered the angels in detail. Some claim that such occurrences are speaking of the pre-existent Jesus, but a closer examination disproves this theory. I will only mention one example and other examples could be supplied if anyone would like to discuss this further. Exodus 3:1-9 (KJV): 1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. A careful examination of the above will reveal that the angel is called “God” Hebrew “Elohim” and speaks on God’s behalf. Stephen states that Moses spoke to an Angel: Acts 7:30-32 (KJV): 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted June 16, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted June 16, 2016 2 hours ago, TrevorL said: that we may more fully understand God’s revelation concerning Himself. To specifically pray for a concept that I am already convinced is an error that was developed in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, derived in part from Greek philosophy and other sources, contrary to the clear Bible teaching would go against my conscience. Beloved You Would Not Be The First Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:35-40 (English Standard Version) For God's Revelation So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. John 6:41-47 (English Standard Version) Concerning Himself Once Given I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:48-51 (English Standard Version) To Men That They May Know And Love The One True LORD When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? John 6:60-62 (English Standard Version) Is Rejected By Most Yet The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. John 12:48 (English Standard Version) I Am Blessed It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” John 6:63-65 (English Standard Version) ~ Believe And Be Blessed Beloved After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, John 6:66-69 (English Standard Version) Of The LORD Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank. The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.” So Moses rose with his assistant Joshua, and Moses went up into the mountain of God. And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we return to you. And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you. Whoever has a dispute, let him go to them.” Then Moses went up on the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain. The glory of the Lord dwelt on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. Now the appearance of the glory of the Lord was like a devouring fire on the top of the mountain in the sight of the people of Israel. Moses entered the cloud and went up on the mountain. And Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights. Exodus 24:9-18 (English Standard Version) See? not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. John 6:46 (English Standard Version) Love, Your Brother Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted June 16, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 5 hours ago, TrevorL said: Greetings again angels4u, I appreciate your sincere suggestion. I would consider it appropriate to pray for understanding concerning this subject as a whole, that we may more fully understand God’s revelation concerning Himself. To specifically pray for a concept that I am already convinced is an error that was developed in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, derived in part from Greek philosophy and other sources, contrary to the clear Bible teaching would go against my conscience. Two Mormon’s on one occasion made a similar appeal to me to pray concerning their very wrong doctrines, for example that each of us has an immortal soul in heaven (that has lived a previous existence?) before our birth that enters into the womb. But we are given understanding and wisdom to weigh these things in a reasonable manner. I utterly reject many of their wrong doctrines and to pray about these would be a form of idolatry. Perhaps one area that I have not covered in detail is the concept that angels represent God and speak on his behalf and the title “God” and even the Name “Yahweh” is used by these angels. I mentioned this concept concerning the judges, but have not considered the angels in detail. Some claim that such occurrences are speaking of the pre-existent Jesus, but a closer examination disproves this theory. I will only mention one example and other examples could be supplied if anyone would like to discuss this further. Exodus 3:1-9 (KJV): 1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. A careful examination of the above will reveal that the angel is called “God” Hebrew “Elohim” and speaks on God’s behalf. Stephen states that Moses spoke to an Angel: Acts 7:30-32 (KJV): 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. Kind regards Trevor Matthew Henry Commentary7:30-41 Men deceive themselves, if they think God cannot do what he sees to be good any where; he can bring his people into a wilderness, and there speak comfortably to them. He appeared to Moses in a flame of fire, yet the bush was not consumed; which represented the state of Israel in Egypt, where, though they were in the fire of affliction, yet they were not consumed. It may also be looked upon as a type of Christ's taking upon him the nature of man, and the union between the Divine and human nature. The death of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, cannot break the covenant relation between God and them. Our Saviour by this proves the future state, Mt 22:31. Abraham is dead, yet God is still his God, therefore Abraham is still alive. Now, this is that life and immortality which are brought to light by the gospel. Stephen here shows that Moses was an eminent type of Christ, as he was Israel's deliverer. God has compassion for the troubles of his church, and the groans of his persecuted people; and their deliverance takes rise from his pity. And that deliverance was typical of what Christ did, when, for us men, and for our salvation, he came down from heaven. This Jesus, whom they now refused, as their fathers did Moses, even this same has God advanced to be a Prince and Saviour. It does not at all take from the just honour of Moses to say, that he was but an instrument, and that he is infinitely outshone by Jesus. In asserting that Jesus should change the customs of the ceremonial law. Stephen was so far from blaspheming Moses, that really he honoured him, by showing how the prophecy of Moses was come to pass, which was so clear. God who gave them those customs by his servant Moses, might, no doubt, change the custom by his Son Jesus. But Israel thrust Moses from them, and would have returned to their bondage; so men in general will not obey Jesus, because they love this present evil world, and rejoice in their own works and devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted June 16, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted June 16, 2016 4 hours ago, FresnoJoe said: After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, John 6:66-69 (English Standard Version) 1 hour ago, angels4u said: This Jesus, whom they now refused, as their fathers did Moses, even this same has God advanced to be a Prince and Saviour. Greetings again FresnoJoe and angels4u, I endorse these words of Peter. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted June 16, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2016 3 hours ago, TrevorL said: Greetings again FresnoJoe and angels4u, I endorse these words of Peter. Kind regards Trevor Hello Trevor, I read the statement Peter made: Lord to whom shall we go? "You have the words of eternal life" This coming from Peter, who was a Galilean, yet faithfully had follow The instructions of Moses all his life, and he was not speaking for himself only, but for the rest of the other disciples when he said: "To whom shall we go", For Jesus had ask the twelve, And Peter answer on behave of all of them. How would Peter know that the other disciples hold the same belief that " Jesus had the words of life", I may notice that most of the disciples were loayal to the teachings and the traditions Moses had given them, and many of them were Jonh,s "the Baptist" disciples, but neither one of them admitted of having the words of life. It noticeable to say that John said to his disciples when he shaw Jesus that Jesus had the life, that he is the Messaia and he had the words of life. Peter's confession may be seen as the belief of the disciples that Jesus is the one Moses had taulk about that when he comes he will bring something new and the people had to let go of him (Moses), and follow the one with the words of life. Peter's confession may be seen and it was: Moses only had spoken of the one who had the words of life, thus admitting that he did not have the words of life, and he was looking forwards to the one whom God will sent who will have the words of life, and he instructed the people to do the same thing. Jonh the Baptist also made the same confession, that he did not have the words of life, and he is not the one Moses taulk about. But that what Jonh said: unlikely Moses my self will get to see during my life the one Moses taulk about and his mission was to inform the people who he is, for this is why God brought him in this world, and when he shaw him he said to his disciples: go to him, for I need what he has "the life", or the words of life. He declare that Jesus was the one the Christ, the Messaia, the Son of God, that even thought he Jonh had a miraculous birth, he said I am not the Son of God, he then pointed to Jesus " he is the Son of God", the one with the words of life. Jesus said: if you believe in me you have the life. Trevor I am glad to hear that you believe that Jesus has the words of life, the way Peter and all the other disciples believe. God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted June 24, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 Quote But that what Jonh said: unlikely Moses my self will get to see during my life the one Moses taulk about and his mission was to inform the people who he is, for this is why God brought him in this world, and when he shaw him he said to his disciples: go to him, for I need what he has "the life", or the words of life. He declare that Jesus was the one the Christ, the Messaia, the Son of God, that even thought he Jonh had a miraculous birth, he said I am not the Son of God, he then pointed to Jesus " he is the Son of God", the one with the words of life. Amen ,He came to save us and to show us that The Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and His power to save~~~~ And all of them are God~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wincam Posted August 17, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 114 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2016 an easier way to try and understand is that we as human beings are a trinity viz father/mother/son = all three different and separate but all equally human beings so also with divine beings - wincam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flsnookman Posted August 19, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 216 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 165 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2016 Well, we as humans are also triune beings consisting of flesh,soul and spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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